Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

[Soul Searcher]

So, lake of fire is clearly different from Hell???? How so?

Well for one hell in the bible is dipicted as a place people go before judgment, Lake of fire is either the place of judgment or the place after judgment, but most specifically the fact that many of those who the bible says will be cast into the lake of fire were in hell first then they come out of hell and hell itself is cast into the lake of fire. Is it not clear that hell and the lake of fire are two different things whatever they happen to be?

I think it is more like communism vs socialistic totalitarianism. Communism never existed, but the common understanding of the word did. So, hell or lake of fire? Does it matter?

Yes I think it matters, using hell and lake of fire interchangeably simply adds to the confusion.

I agree that every word breathed from the mouth of God is the Word of God. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit not only inspired the written word, but guided the selection of the books to be included.

How do you explain the books that were removed hundreds of years later?

We must trust in God to insure that we can uncover false doctrine and false teachings within our church. Otherwise, why not embrace all "holy" books? Should we include the Gospel of Thomas, the DaVinci Code, the Qu'ran, and the Book of Mormon? There are those who claim that these are holy books. How do we know they are not?

I would sugest following the advice of the bible, "Prove all things hold fast that which is good"

I think it all comes down to a matter of faith. Faith comes first. In order to rightly divide the Word of God, one must first have faith.

But if our faith is that the bible is the word of God, that every word in the bible is inspired and nothing outside the bible then our faith is already misplaced and will thus lead us to err in our understanding.

The best and most controversial example in the Bible is where Joshua has the sun to stand still. Faith says, "Hmm...I don't understand that, but I guess God knew what He was doing when He allowed that to be written" Lack of faith says, "Aha! I have just proven the entire Bible to be false!"

And the logical mind says well that verse is clearly not literally true but that does not mean that the entire bible is false.

I hope you understand my point.

Yes have heard it many times from others and I disagree rather strongly.

 

[hybrid]

Jesus annihilated death on Calvary; that is the first death. He truly died and turned the whole death process around. God’s seconds are always more glorious and better then His first.

so when will jesus anihilate physical death together with sickness and diseases?

and if you call first death - spiritual death , and second death, the death of self (you mean ego?) then what would you call physical death, third death?

.

 

[red77]

I do not define hell. It could be a literal burning lake of fire, or it could be an eternal separation from God, or it could be a fiery torment of the mind, or all of the above. My point is that regardless of WHAT hell is, I do believe that the Bible is clear that those who do not accept Christ will be tormented for eternity. I believe that it is a dangerous thing to teach that God is too kind and loving to REALLY send people to hell (insert definition).

Surely if the Bible is clear on the issue there wouldnt be any problem in being able to define hell and the lake of fire, for something as crucial as the eternal agony of countless people it would be natural to expect black and white verses on the nature of hell, the lOF etc........it would only be dangerous to teach that God is too kind and loving if you believe God to be limited in his love, compassion and mercy........

I have been in these discussions before, and those who believe that a loving God could not possibly send ANYONE to hell (insert definition) also toss out scripture that does not fit their idea of God. For example, in the OT in which the Israelites are commanded to destroy men, women, and <gasp> children, they do not believe that is literal holy scripture, but manufactured by men to justify holy wars. The vengeful God of the OT does not seem to line up with the merciful God of the NT, and the only way that the two can be reconciled is to throw out any Bible verses that show the vengeful God. However, what we see in the NT is Part II of a three part saga. Part III will see the return of an uncompromising God of wrath and judgement as well as a merciful loving God. He is both, not one or the other.

I think that many that believe in eternal torment have to disregard much in scripture that counters their belief, what I've noticed is that there's much confusion among those who ascribe to ET regarding just what hell is etc, you yourself are not clear on the issue.........many verses in the Bible speak of God reconciling all to himself .......others say that God will not retain his anger or cast off forever because he delights in mercy..........so how can the eternal tormenting of helpless beings tie in with this? It would have to be the most unmerciful act to torture people for ever........

 

[GeorgeE]

First off Adam did not sin, Adam transgressed the law. The results of his disobedience was the same as if he had sinned, but not knowing good from evil, Adam certainly could not have made a choice in knowledge. Because of the transgression of Adam, sin entered into the world. The world was no longer perfect. This imperfection was passed on to all posterity. Because of this, we are born into imperfection. Because of this, we are doomed. We could not return to God in this state. And thus the reason for a atonement. It makes little sense to me, that God who knows all would create, and place billions of people on earth and then only select a few chosen and send the rest to Hell. I believe the playing field is more fair than what mainstream Christians believe. To me, Hell is coming face to face with the person you could have been.

Nice opinion but that is not what these scriptures say.
Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Rom 11:32:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[GeorgeE]

so when will jesus anihilate physical death together with sickness and diseases?

and if you call first death - spiritual death , and second death, the death of self (you mean ego?) then what would you call physical death, third death?

.

All of God's works are processes; it is much more then ego; it is the carnal mind; all that was the curse; physical death will be the final work of the second death; for
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (grave pit place of the dead) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[GeorgeE]

First off Adam did not sin, Adam transgressed the law. The results of his disobedience was the same as if he had sinned, but not knowing good from evil, Adam certainly could not have made a choice in knowledge. Because of the transgression of Adam, sin entered into the world. The world was no longer perfect. This imperfection was passed on to all posterity. Because of this, we are born into imperfection. Because of this, we are doomed. We could not return to God in this state. And thus the reason for a atonement. It makes little sense to me, that God who knows all would create, and place billions of people on earth and then only select a few chosen and send the rest to Hell. I believe the playing field is more fair than what mainstream Christians believe. To me, Hell is coming face to face with the person you could have been.

It is even more then that; Adam was a son of God and totally lost his identity when he fell from grace; Adam named all the animals; a name denotes a nature a character and an authority. Adam walked with God in the cool of the day; communed with God face to face. (Heb) Cool of the day or Spirit of the day). Adam was innocent; that is why he fell; God is not looking for innocent sons; God is looking for mature sons like in revelation the overcomer.

 

[GeorgeE]

the same is true that you need to add a lot to scriptures to come up that majority of humanity will be tortured forever.


hi. it's me again, harlin and i'm fine.

It is not a matter of throwing out scripture; it is a matter of digging past all the religious bias to uncover what the scripture was intended. Many do not believe there is one scripture that says all will be saved because their bias is on eternal torment and they have never looked. Or they find some way of twisting the verse so it fits their dogmas. God is a just God and He will punish the wicked; the wicked in all of us in the Lake of Fire or Lake of Devine Purification but for an age (which means limited duration).

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Num 14:21 But indeed as I live all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

 

[EchoPneuma]

Holes in your doctrine? Please answer the following questions as it applies to your belief.

Seeing as how you didn't answer any of mine, why should I answer any of yours?

I take it you had no answers?

But I will answer yours as a courtesy.

What is faith for?

Faith is a gift from God according to scripture. It's purpose is to grow spiritually.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. Faith allows God to work fully in our lives and allows us to partake of the divine nature.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God....and the "Word of God" is Jesus in our hearts. Faith comes from Jesus speaking to our hearts and us LISTENING and responding.

What does rejection of Christ mean?

It means a person has forfeited the blessings of God while in this life. It means that their hearts aren't purified by faith and therefore they will have to be purified by fire. It means they will reap corruption in the flesh. It means they will have to spend an "age" in the Lake of Fire facing God's wrath because of their unrepentance.

But it DOES NOT means they will be separated from God for ETERNITY. That would be spiritual DEATH.....and Jesus tasted DEATH for ALL MEN.....so no man will EVER have that penalty because Jesus TOOK IT FOR HIM.

What was the point of the fall of man if no effort was required on the part of man to be reconciled back to God?

Was any effort required by man in order for God to place condemnation upon them all in Adam??

NO!!

So no effort is required by them in order for God to place righteousness upon them in Christ.

The bible clearly states that while we were STILL ENEMIES we were reconciled back to God by the death of Jesus. Mankind didn't have to do ANYTHING to be reconciled back to God. Jesus did ALL that was necessary on our behalf.

Jesus died for all, but not all will accept salvation.

So? Just because someone doesn't accept the sacrifice doesn't mean it becomes null and void. It was done on their behalf by Jesus. It was a gift placed upon them by God as a judicial decision. Rejection or acceptance had nothing to do with it. It was a GIFT. No strings attached. Not even the "string" of faith.

You are essentially teaching a doctrine that says that salvation can come after death. This is misleading and has no basis in scripture.

Wrong. It's not misleading. It's what the bible teaches. The bible says that ALL THINGS will be reconciled back to God.

We know that ALL THINGS are not reconciled back to God in this life are they?

So that means that SOME THINGS will have to be reconciled back to God after they die. RIGHT??

That is why the bible also says that the gospel is preached to those who are dead. Why would it say that unless there was a purpose to it? Why would the gospel need to be preached to the dead unless they had a chance to respond to it?

Why do YOU think that God CEASES to deal with a soul after the death of the flesh? There is NO SCRIPTURE to support it.

Again, how can one determine the extent of God's love? How can one determine what is love and what is not at God's level?

That's exactly what you're doing. You are saying that God's love stops when an unbeliever dies. That His mercy ceases when a person with no faith ceases to live in this physical plane.

It is YOU that is trying to determine the extent of God's love.

and as far as us trying to determine what love is, and is not, is easy...it's defined quite clearly for us in 1 Cor. 13.....and one of the definitons says "love keeps no record of wrongs".

Do you believe what the bible says about love? Do you believe God IS love? If so. THen you CANNOT believe that God will torment someone for ETERNITY because that would be Him keeping a record of their wrongs for ETERNITY.

It also says "love is patient, kind, gentle and meek".....do you believe God IS love? Do you believe God is "patient, kind, gentle and meek"? Do you believe a God who is "patient, kind, gentle, and meek" would torment someone for eternity? Would that be kindness or gentleness??

What about the martyrs under the altar of God who cry out for justice? What are they crying out for?

Lisa

They are crying out for justice. Do you believe justice can only be accomplished if God torments someone for ETERNITY??

Do you think in our courts today that if a robber is sentenced that he only gets justice if the death penalty is given? Are you saying anything less is not punishment and not justice?

IT seems to be you who are trying to determine what God's justice is.....and putting it in a little box by saying that justice isn't done UNLESS the sentence is eternal punishment. That's ludicrous.

PS: I appreciate how respectful the discussion has been so far. I am grateful to discuss this without anger or emotionalism. Please understand that I would like the idea of salvation for all, but I do not believe it to be in line with the Bible.

Universal reconcilation is perfectly in line with the bible. Universal redemption is clearly taught in scripture.

An "eternal" punishment is NEVER taught.....an "age long" punishment of chastisement and purification is what is shown.

Now, you please answer my questions.....

So you think for God to be just He has to torment people for ETERNITY?? Nothing less is real punishment?

How does that square with the bible saying that His MERCY endures FOREVER??

If "love keeps no record of wrongs" and "God is love".....then how can God keep a record of a person's wrongs for all eternity by tormenting them for all eternity??

God said "I am not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance".

Is He lying? If God is sovereign, won't He accomplish His will? Are you saying that man's will can override God's sovereign will?

the bible says that Jesus "came to seek and to SAVE that which was lost" Are you saying He failed to save that which was lost?

If God is unconditional love then why do you say that His loves stops when an unbeliever dies? Wouldn't that make His love conditioned upon the unbeliever still being alive? Making it conditional love?

If the bible says "love NEVER fails" then why do you say that Jesus will fail to save many people from hell? Are you saying that He fails to save them because of their lack of faith? If so, isn't that STILL a failure because He can't overcome their lack of faith by His sacrifice?

But "love NEVER fails"...and you're saying Jesus does fail to save them. So how can you believe that?

 

[fatboys]

Nice opinion but that is not what these scriptures say.
Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Rom 11:32:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That was my problem in not explaining myself. I do not have a problem with what you quoted and posted here. Transgression is disobedience of God's laws. And because of the transgression or the disobedience of one man, Death and condemnation came into the world. It is just that I believe that just as sin was brought into the world without a person sinning, so was the consequences of sin and disobedience taken away without sin. Again, Sin is a transgression, Not all transgressions are sins. It is still disobedience, but if a person disobeys without knowledge of the law, Paul taught there could be no sin. I know, God told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit. But does that mean the knew and understood what the consequences of disobedience would be? I believe no. The reason being is that they did not know Good from Evil. They did not know what death was, nor the consequences of their choice. So it is as if there was no law. Because we are imperfect and are subject to death and sin, we could not by ourselves return to God in our falling state. Even if a person could have been born and lived his life spotless, he could not return to God. This stain on the human race had to be paid for by one who had the power to do so. That power came from being sinnless. Had Jesus commited one sin, he would then not have the power to save us. So by transgression sin was brought into the world by one man, so it is paid for by one man.

 

[fatboys]

It is even more then that; Adam was a son of God and totally lost his identity when he fell from grace; Adam named all the animals; a name denotes a nature a character and an authority. Adam walked with God in the cool of the day; communed with God face to face. (Heb) Cool of the day or Spirit of the day). Adam was innocent; that is why he fell; God is not looking for innocent sons; God is looking for mature sons like in revelation the overcomer.

He was innocent because he lacked knowledge of Good and Evil. Lets look at it from a different point of view. Lets suppose that God's intention was to create Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden. If God wanted them to stay in the Garden, why would he place the forbidden fruit there? If it was God's intent that they remain there, why are they not still there? When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, was God surprised? If he was, then does God know all things?

I believe that God's intent was for Adam to eat the fruit. That is why it was there, and why Adam ate. God knew what he was going to do. If this was so against God's intention, why would he destory Sodom because of its wickedness, and not destroy Adam and start over again.

And there is no such place as hell. There is places of torment, but that torment comes from ourselves as we look at where we are, and where we could have been.

 

[GeorgeE]

That was my problem in not explaining myself. I do not have a problem with what you quoted and posted here. Transgression is disobedience of God's laws. And because of the transgression or the disobedience of one man, Death and condemnation came into the world. It is just that I believe that just as sin was brought into the world without a person sinning, so was the consequences of sin and disobedience taken away without sin. Again, Sin is a transgression, Not all transgressions are sins. It is still disobedience, but if a person disobeys without knowledge of the law, Paul taught there could be no sin. I know, God told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit. But does that mean the knew and understood what the consequences of disobedience would be? I believe no. The reason being is that they did not know Good from Evil. They did not know what death was, nor the consequences of their choice. So it is as if there was no law. Because we are imperfect and are subject to death and sin, we could not by ourselves return to God in our falling state. Even if a person could have been born and lived his life spotless, he could not return to God. This stain on the human race had to be paid for by one who had the power to do so. That power came from being sinnless. Had Jesus commited one sin, he would then not have the power to save us. So by transgression sin was brought into the world by one man, so it is paid for by one man.

AMEN

 

[GeorgeE]

He was innocent because he lacked knowledge of Good and Evil. Lets look at it from a different point of view. Lets suppose that God's intention was to create Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden. If God wanted them to stay in the Garden, why would he place the forbidden fruit there? If it was God's intent that they remain there, why are they not still there? When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, was God surprised? If he was, then does God know all things?

I believe that God's intent was for Adam to eat the fruit. That is why it was there, and why Adam ate. God knew what he was going to do. If this was so against God's intention, why would he destory Sodom because of its wickedness, and not destroy Adam and start over again.

And there is no such place as hell. There is places of torment, but that torment comes from ourselves as we look at where we are, and where we could have been.

Amen again

 

[elman]

so when will jesus anihilate physical death together with sickness and diseases?

and if you call first death - spiritual death , and second death, the death of self (you mean ego?) then what would you call physical death, third death?

.

I think physical death is simply being mortal. The first death I think is when we kill our soul with our own sin. Ezediel 18. The second death is when we fail to achieve spiritual life and thus remain dead forever.

 

[Prodigy]

THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - The Presence of the Lord and his Ministers of Flaming Fire

THE SECOND DEATH - The Death and Destruction of the Old Man, his Sin and his Death

In the Cleansing, Purging, Refining Purifying Presence of the Lord and his Ministers of Flaming Fire the Death and Destruction of the Old Man, his Sin and his Death is through the Vivification and Development of the New Man, his Virtue and his Life.

 

[hybrid]

THE SECOND DEATH - The Death and Destruction of the Old Man, his Sin and his Death

this statement has two meanings that can be both true.

first meaning is cosmological scope. the death and destruction ( cessation, purging away, getting rid of, taking away, etc, etc) of the old man(fallen human race, sin and death in general) to usher the dawn of new heaven and new earth in biblical prophesies.

second meaning is the esoteric or spiritual. the death and destruction of the old man (carnal mind, ego), sin and death within one's conciousness. this is what paul was talking about in the book of corinthians when he sais if anyone is in christ, he is a new creature, the old was gone the new has come.

the latter was metahysical and the former was actual.


.

 

[Lisa0315]

Faith is a gift from God according to scripture. It's purpose is to grow spiritually.

Without faith it's impossible to please God. Faith allows God to work fully in our lives and allows us to partake of the divine nature.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God....and the "Word of God" is Jesus in our hearts. Faith comes from Jesus speaking to our hearts and us LISTENING and responding.

So, one without faith cannot please God. Will faith be possible AFTER death? Of course not. When we come face to face with almighty God, the truth will be known, and there will be nothing to take on faith. For whatever purpose, God uses faith to test mankind. Without faith, we cannot obtain salvation. It is a two-side transaction. Jesus paid the penalty. We accept by faith.

It means a person has forfeited the blessings of God while in this life. It means that their hearts aren't purified by faith and therefore they will have to be purified by fire. It means they will reap corruption in the flesh. It means they will have to spend an "age" in the Lake of Fire facing God's wrath because of their unrepentance.

God causes the rain to fall on the good and the wicked. Blessings are bestowed on those who believe, and those who do not. Trials and tribulations come to both as well, but the difference is a Christian's trials are actually lessons to teach the Christian to depend on God.

How long is an age by the way?

But it DOES NOT means they will be separated from God for ETERNITY. That would be spiritual DEATH.....and Jesus tasted DEATH for ALL MEN.....so no man will EVER have that penalty because Jesus TOOK IT FOR HIM.

Yes, He did, but that does not mean that His sacrifice is accepted by all.

Was any effort required by man in order for God to place condemnation upon them all in Adam??

We were all born with original sin but we are not condemned for original sin nor are we condemned for the sins we commit throughout our entire lives. We are condemned for one thing and one thing only: rejection of Christ.

The bible clearly states that while we were STILL ENEMIES we were reconciled back to God by the death of Jesus. Mankind didn't have to do ANYTHING to be reconciled back to God. Jesus did ALL that was necessary on our behalf.

Yes, Jesus did all that was required, but there still has to be an acceptance of that gift. If you were to walk into a bank and find that some unknown person had gifted you with a billion dollars, the transaction would not be complete until you signed an acceptance of the gift. This is a good analogy of salvation. Jesus paid for the entire world's sin, but it is not imputed to us unless we accept the gift of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

So? Just because someone doesn't accept the sacrifice doesn't mean it becomes null and void. It was done on their behalf by Jesus. It was a gift placed upon them by God as a judicial decision. Rejection or acceptance had nothing to do with it. It was a GIFT. No strings attached. Not even the "string" of faith.

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that faith is required. Read Hebrews chapter 11.

Wrong. It's not misleading. It's what the bible teaches. The bible says that ALL THINGS will be reconciled back to God.

In accounting, a reconciliation is a method of determining what belongs in an account, and what does not. Reconciliation does not always mean a positive reuniting to God, but it means an accounting of all the transactions of all men, both good and bad. At the judgement of both Christian and non-Christian, there will be an accounting of the works of men. None of the works will be accepted as payment for the penalty of sin. Christ will separate those who belong to Him and those who do not. This is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Study the way the wheat is separated from the tares. This is an incredible parable. When the wheat and tares are growing together, it is impossible to tell one from the other. At harvest, the wheat and the tares are cut together and tossed into the wind. The tares are then easily identified and are burned. They must be burned and completely separated from the wheat because they are poisonous. They are not burned until they become wheat. They will never become wheat. The tares are utterly destroyed lest they poison the bread made from the wheat.

We know that ALL THINGS are not reconciled back to God in this life are they?
So that means that SOME THINGS will have to be reconciled back to God after they die. RIGHT??

If you understand the word reconciliation, then, you will find that it does not always mean being reunited. It means a balancing, and a proper ordering and placement of something.

That is why the bible also says that the gospel is preached to those who are dead. Why would it say that unless there was a purpose to it? Why would the gospel need to be preached to the dead unless they had a chance to respond to it?

The Gospel was preached once to the dead prior the Christ's resurrection. It was preached to the OT saints, not those already in hell. It was preached to Lazurus and Abraham, but not to the rich man. Why would Jesus talk of the rich man wanting to warn his brothers if there was going to be a second chance for him and his brothers?

Why do YOU think that God CEASES to deal with a soul after the death of the flesh? There is NO SCRIPTURE to support it.

It is appointed unto man once to die. After that is the judgement. That is paraphrased and I will have to find the chapter and verse for you. That clearly states that man does not get saved after death.

That's exactly what you're doing. You are saying that God's love stops when an unbeliever dies. That His mercy ceases when a person with no faith ceases to live in this physical plane.

Nope. I didn't say that. I said that I trust God to be just. If God punishes an evil man for eternity, then, I trust that God knows what He is doing. I do not have the wisdom to understand the depth of the love of God, nor do I have the wisdom to understand the depth of His justice. I just know that He is both just and merciful, not one or the other.

and as far as us trying to determine what love is, and is not, is easy...it's defined quite clearly for us in 1 Cor. 13.....and one of the definitons says "love keeps no record of wrongs".

Do you believe what the bible says about love? Do you believe God IS love? If so. THen you CANNOT believe that God will torment someone for ETERNITY because that would be Him keeping a record of their wrongs for ETERNITY.

It also says "love is patient, kind, gentle and meek".....do you believe God IS love? Do you believe God is "patient, kind, gentle and meek"? Do you believe a God who is "patient, kind, gentle, and meek" would torment someone for eternity? Would that be kindness or gentleness??

I believe that God will be patient, kind, gentle, and meek to those who belong to Him. I believe that He will deal out harsh judgement on those who are His enemies.

They are crying out for justice. Do you believe justice can only be accomplished if God torments someone for ETERNITY??

This is God's judgement not mine. I accept that my God is a God of Wrath against His enemies. I do not expect Him to be a nimby-pamby, Ghandi-like, emaciated, sickly, weakling. This is how Hollywood represents Christ. However, when Christ returns, let's just say, He will be wearing combat boots! The enemies of God will be defeated and they will be cast out, cast down, tormented for eternity. This is the will of God and I accept it. I do not get excited about it, rubbing my hands together with glee, nor does God. My God is long-suffering and has extended a certain period of time for the world to come to Him. At some point, though, He will put an end to it, and that will be that. No more curse, no more death, no more sickness, no more evil, no more. Those who are not found to be in the Book of Life will not enter in. It is that simple.

Do you think in our courts today that if a robber is sentenced that he only gets justice if the death penalty is given? Are you saying anything less is not punishment and not justice?

You are humanizing God's justice and I think this is a mistake on your part. I do not think that God's justice is remotely like ours. Think of the Law of God. It is impossible for any man to keep. If you break one law, you have broken them all. That is how black and white the justice of God is. Circumstances and childhood experiences will not matter. Underlying causes such as drug addiction, or being poor will not be excuses.

IT seems to be you who are trying to determine what God's justice is.....and putting it in a little box by saying that justice isn't done UNLESS the sentence is eternal punishment. That's ludicrous.

I disagree. I do not make the rules. God does. I accept that. You do not. Instead, you are attempting to make God into something He is not.

Universal reconcilation is perfectly in line with the bible. Universal redemption is clearly taught in scripture.

An "eternal" punishment is NEVER taught.....an "age long" punishment of chastisement and purification is what is shown.

Now, you please answer my questions.....

You haven't shown me that.

Is He lying? If God is sovereign, won't He accomplish His will? Are you saying that man's will can override God's sovereign will?

Yes, in a way, man's FREE will can override the will of God. That is the whole point from Genesis to Revelations. God created us with free will. He desires that we come back to Him, but He will not force anyone. To say that God puts people in a lake of fire until they are ready to accept Him is to say that God is coercing people. It is far more logical to say that God sends people to hell for eternity because of free will. The judgement is simply to prove that the person deserves it. We all deserve it. Jesus steps up, cloaks us with righteousness, and what He deserves becomes ours.

the bible says that Jesus "came to seek and to SAVE that which was lost" Are you saying He failed to save that which was lost?

Are you talking about the Lost Sheep of Israel verses here? If so, you are taking that way out of context.

If God is unconditional love then why do you say that His loves stops when an unbeliever dies? Wouldn't that make His love conditioned upon the unbeliever still being alive? Making it conditional love?

Who says that God's love is unconditional? Show me scripture that says it is unconditional? It says that it endures forever, and it does, but to whom it is directed at is another story.

If the bible says "love NEVER fails" then why do you say that Jesus will fail to save many people from hell? Are you saying that He fails to save them because of their lack of faith? If so, isn't that STILL a failure because He can't overcome their lack of faith by His sacrifice?

Love never fails. If I love someone, and that person does not love me back, my love has not failed. My love is just as pure and enduring whether that person accepts it or not. That does not mean that I want a hateful person around me even if I still love them.

Lisa

 

[EchoPneuma]

So, one without faith cannot please God. Will faith be possible AFTER death? Of course not. When we come face to face with almighty God, the truth will be known, and there will be nothing to take on faith. For whatever purpose, God uses faith to test mankind. Without faith, we cannot obtain salvation. It is a two-side transaction. Jesus paid the penalty. We accept by faith.



God causes the rain to fall on the good and the wicked. Blessings are bestowed on those who believe, and those who do not. Trials and tribulations come to both as well, but the difference is a Christian's trials are actually lessons to teach the Christian to depend on God.

How long is an age by the way?




Yes, He did, but that does not mean that His sacrifice is accepted by all.




We were all born with original sin but we are not condemned for original sin nor are we condemned for the sins we commit throughout our entire lives. We are condemned for one thing and one thing only: rejection of Christ.




Yes, Jesus did all that was required, but there still has to be an acceptance of that gift. If you were to walk into a bank and find that some unknown person had gifted you with a billion dollars, the transaction would not be complete until you signed an acceptance of the gift. This is a good analogy of salvation. Jesus paid for the entire world's sin, but it is not imputed to us unless we accept the gift of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.




That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that faith is required. Read Hebrews chapter 11.





In accounting, a reconciliation is a method of determining what belongs in an account, and what does not. Reconciliation does not always mean a positive reuniting to God, but it means an accounting of all the transactions of all men, both good and bad. At the judgement of both Christian and non-Christian, there will be an accounting of the works of men. None of the works will be accepted as payment for the penalty of sin. Christ will separate those who belong to Him and those who do not. This is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Study the way the wheat is separated from the tares. This is an incredible parable. When the wheat and tares are growing together, it is impossible to tell one from the other. At harvest, the wheat and the tares are cut together and tossed into the wind. The tares are then easily identified and are burned. They must be burned and completely separated from the wheat because they are poisonous. They are not burned until they become wheat. They will never become wheat. The tares are utterly destroyed lest they poison the bread made from the wheat.




If you understand the word reconciliation, then, you will find that it does not always mean being reunited. It means a balancing, and a proper ordering and placement of something.


The Gospel was preached once to the dead prior the Christ's resurrection. It was preached to the OT saints, not those already in hell. It was preached to Lazurus and Abraham, but not to the rich man. Why would Jesus talk of the rich man wanting to warn his brothers if there was going to be a second chance for him and his brothers?



It is appointed unto man once to die. After that is the judgement. That is paraphrased and I will have to find the chapter and verse for you. That clearly states that man does not get saved after death.



Nope. I didn't say that. I said that I trust God to be just. If God punishes an evil man for eternity, then, I trust that God knows what He is doing. I do not have the wisdom to understand the depth of the love of God, nor do I have the wisdom to understand the depth of His justice. I just know that He is both just and merciful, not one or the other.




I believe that God will be patient, kind, gentle, and meek to those who belong to Him. I believe that He will deal out harsh judgement on those who are His enemies.




This is God's judgement not mine. I accept that my God is a God of Wrath against His enemies. I do not expect Him to be a nimby-pamby, Ghandi-like, emaciated, sickly, weakling. This is how Hollywood represents Christ. However, when Christ returns, let's just say, He will be wearing combat boots! The enemies of God will be defeated and they will be cast out, cast down, tormented for eternity. This is the will of God and I accept it. I do not get excited about it, rubbing my hands together with glee, nor does God. My God is long-suffering and has extended a certain period of time for the world to come to Him. At some point, though, He will put an end to it, and that will be that. No more curse, no more death, no more sickness, no more evil, no more. Those who are not found to be in the Book of Life will not enter in. It is that simple.


You are humanizing God's justice and I think this is a mistake on your part. I do not think that God's justice is remotely like ours. Think of the Law of God. It is impossible for any man to keep. If you break one law, you have broken them all. That is how black and white the justice of God is. Circumstances and childhood experiences will not matter. Underlying causes such as drug addiction, or being poor will not be excuses.



I disagree. I do not make the rules. God does. I accept that. You do not. Instead, you are attempting to make God into something He is not.





You haven't shown me that.




Yes, in a way, man's FREE will can override the will of God. That is the whole point from Genesis to Revelations. God created us with free will. He desires that we come back to Him, but He will not force anyone. To say that God puts people in a lake of fire until they are ready to accept Him is to say that God is coercing people. It is far more logical to say that God sends people to hell for eternity because of free will. The judgement is simply to prove that the person deserves it. We all deserve it. Jesus steps up, cloaks us with righteousness, and what He deserves becomes ours.


Are you talking about the Lost Sheep of Israel verses here? If so, you are taking that way out of context.


Who says that God's love is unconditional? Show me scripture that says it is unconditional? It says that it endures forever, and it does, but to whom it is directed at is another story.


Love never fails. If I love someone, and that person does not love me back, my love has not failed. My love is just as pure and enduring whether that person accepts it or not. That does not mean that I want a hateful person around me even if I still love them.

Lisa

We obviously don't worship the same God....so this conversation is moot. My God is sovereign over ALL THINGS and your god is subject to the will of man. My God loves unconditionally and your god doesn't. My God loves ALL MEN and redeems ALL MEN, your god does not.

My God's love endures forever for ALL MEN, and your god only loves conditionally SOME men.

Your god is the god of the Catholic Church and that is not the god I acknowledge or worship.

So we aren't even on the same playing field.

But thanks for the interesting conversation....
Blessings
Echo

 

[Lisa0315]

We obviously don't worship the same God....so this conversation is moot. My God is sovereign over ALL THINGS and your god is subject to the will of man. My God loves unconditionally and your god doesn't. My God loves ALL MEN and redeems ALL MEN, your god does not.

My God's love endures forever for ALL MEN, and your god only loves conditionally SOME men.

Your god is the god of the Catholic Church and that is not the god I acknowledge or worship.

So we aren't even on the same playing field.

But thanks for the interesting conversation....
Blessings
Echo

So soon? We haven't even touched on the subject yet. Okay, if you want to concede.

BTW, the God of the Catholic church is the same God that I worship. I am not Catholic but I do appreciate the 2000 years of scholarship by the Catholic Church which has given us much of our doctrine. It is an ignorant thing to say that I worship a Catholic God as if this is a negative thing. While I do not believe in the infallibility of the Catholic Church, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has guided all of Christianity in the fundemental doctrines, one of which is eternal salvation and eternal damnation...which brings up a new point.

If damnation is not eternal, how can you be sure that salvation is?

Lisa

 

[EchoPneuma]

So soon? We haven't even touched on the subject yet. Okay, if you want to concede.

BTW, the God of the Catholic church is the same God that I worship. I am not Catholic but I do appreciate the 2000 years of scholarship by the Catholic Church which has given us much of our doctrine. It is an ignorant thing to say that I worship a Catholic God as if this is a negative thing. While I do not believe in the infallibility of the Catholic Church, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has guided all of Christianity in the fundemental doctrines, one of which is eternal salvation and eternal damnation...which brings up a new point.

If damnation is not eternal, how can you be sure that salvation is?

Lisa

I concede nothing except that we are not talking about the same God.....so it's pointless to continue.

You go on your way and I will go mine. The true God will sort it all out.

Have a nice day
Echo

 

[GeorgeE]

So soon? We haven't even touched on the subject yet. Okay, if you want to concede.

BTW, the God of the Catholic church is the same God that I worship. I am not Catholic but I do appreciate the 2000 years of scholarship by the Catholic Church which has given us much of our doctrine. It is an ignorant thing to say that I worship a Catholic God as if this is a negative thing. While I do not believe in the infallibility of the Catholic Church, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has guided all of Christianity in the fundemental doctrines, one of which is eternal salvation and eternal damnation...which brings up a new point.

If damnation is not eternal, how can you be sure that salvation is?

Lisa

I really do not believe the word eternal is what the scriptures is saying; the word aion (Greek); or Olan (Hebrew) which most Bible scholars interpret eternal; everlasting etc means age. Age has a limited duration. According to scripture John was in the whale forever, but he was there only three days.

Did you know God is going to burn up a kid (baby goat) in an everlasting fire. There is an awesome and deep message here but just like the Catholic Church non Catholic translators had made a lot of mistakes or interpeted by their bias. That is why God has given us the spirit of truth to lead and guide is in all truth. Right now you know what God is saying in His Word; you some how just got to cut though all that religion and hear what God spirit is saying though His Word.