Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

[Charlie V]

Ok...I admit, I havent read the whole thread...so I'll ask if someone can point me rightly.

Q: How do you explain Lazarus and the Rich man? It seems to me that the Rich man is in torment, not consumed, not burnt up.

Questioning,

Matt James

Here are three excellent and revealing articles on the parable:

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellArticles/RichManParable.htm

 

[FineLinen]

Ok...I admit, I havent read the whole thread...so I'll ask if someone can point me rightly.

Q: How do you explain Lazarus and the Rich man? It seems to me that the Rich man is in torment, not consumed, not burnt up.

Questioning,

Matt James

Matty: there are many questions to be addressed regarding this discourse by the Lord Jesus Christ. Like, what qualified the rich man for torment? What qualified Lazarus for Abraham's bosom? Why Abrahams bosom and not the bosom of the Father? What is the significance of the brothers, the dogs, etc. etc. etc.?

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from there to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.

Then he said, I pray therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house:

For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, unless they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham said unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead -Luke 16:19-31-.

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM -J. Preston Eby-

The Parable

The Rich Man

Lazarus

The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus

Abraham's Bosom

Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom

The Rich Man In Torment

The Great Gulf

HERE

 

[KCDAD]

I can't believe no one is using me as a reference on this topic. Geesh!

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable... parables are not literal. It is an illustration of blessed are the meek, the last shall be first and other teachings of Jesus. It is also a message to the Pharisees (and Calvinists)... earthly rewards in this lifetime have no meaning or value in heaven.
What is consuming the rich man is guilt and remorse.

 

[elman]

. the second death is afterwards when the body and soul is cast into the lake of fire alive.
Jesus said no man can kill the soul

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The second death is still death, not life. Ezekiel says we can kill our own soul. Jesus said we cannot kill somone elses soul. Jesus did not say we could not kill our own soul with our own sin.

 

[elman]

Ok...I admit, I havent read the whole thread...so I'll ask if someone can point me rightly.

Q: How do you explain Lazarus and the Rich man? It seems to me that the Rich man is in torment, not consumed, not burnt up.

Questioning,

Matt James

Lazarus and the Rich man is a story designed to teach us that being rich does not mean we have been pleasing to God and loving and being poor does not mean we have not been pleasing to God and loving, the same lesson as Job. It is not about teaching us the details on the afterlife. That was not the intent of the story.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Lazarus and the Rich man is a story designed to teach us that being rich does not mean we have been pleasing to God and loving and being poor does not mean we have not been pleasing to God and loving, the same lesson as Job. It is not about teaching us the details on the afterlife. That was not the intent of the story.

Fully agreed and would add that it also shows in this case that the rich man had a lack of compassion for the poor.

 

[Jon0388g]

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If we were to burn in hell forever and ever, then John, and the Scriptures, are lies. There is no eternal suffering in hell, as this equates to the wicked also having eternal life. This of course, is wrong.

I would quickly also like to point out that throughout Scripture the descriptions of 'everlasting fire' and 'fires that will never be quenched' are purely symbolic and merely assert the fact that the fires are from God, and will have everlasting effects, and they are impossible to quench by anything but God Himself.

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 7

The cities and people of Sodom and Gomorrah are long gone! Certainly not burning today! I thank my loving and just God that He is full of grace and mercy!

 

[Charlie V]

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If we were to burn in hell forever and ever, then John, and the Scriptures, are lies. There is no eternal suffering in hell, as this equates to the wicked also having eternal life. This of course, is wrong.

I would quickly also like to point out that throughout Scripture the descriptions of 'everlasting fire' and 'fires that will never be quenched' are purely symbolic and merely assert the fact that the fires are from God, and will have everlasting effects, and they are impossible to quench by anything but God Himself.

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 7

The cities and people of Sodom and Gomorrah are long gone! Certainly not burning today! I thank my loving and just God that He is full of grace and mercy!

I agree, but as for the "wicked" not having eternal life -- I would say that the wicked do not have eternal wickedness. That the "wicked," indeed, along with all of us, have God's eternal love.

The next verse:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

If there is one person not saved, then either John 3:17 was lying, or Christ's mission to save the world failed because not all the world was saved.

I believe neither that John 3:17 is false, nor that Christ's mission was a failed mission.

Charlie

 

[2ducklow]

can't believe no one is using me as a reference on this topic. Geesh!

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable... parables are not literal. It is an illustration of blessed are the meek, the last shall be first and other teachings of Jesus. It is also a message to the Pharisees (and Calvinists)... earthly rewards in this lifetime have no meaning or value in heaven.
What is consuming the rich man is guilt and remorse.

Nah, it's for real. the rich man is burnin up even still.

 

[elman]

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

If we were to burn in hell forever and ever, then John, and the Scriptures, are lies. There is no eternal suffering in hell, as this equates to the wicked also having eternal life. This of course, is wrong.

I would quickly also like to point out that throughout Scripture the descriptions of 'everlasting fire' and 'fires that will never be quenched' are purely symbolic and merely assert the fact that the fires are from God, and will have everlasting effects, and they are impossible to quench by anything but God Himself.

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 7

The cities and people of Sodom and Gomorrah are long gone! Certainly not burning today! I thank my loving and just God that He is full of grace and mercy!

Good post. I agree.

 

[elman]

I agree, but as for the "wicked" not having eternal life -- I would say that the wicked do not have eternal wickedness. That the "wicked," indeed, along with all of us, have God's eternal love.

The next verse:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

If there is one person not saved, then either John 3:17 was lying, or Christ's mission to save the world failed because not all the world was saved.

I believe neither that John 3:17 is false, nor that Christ's mission was a failed mission.

Charlie

If I chose to not respond to the love of God with love it does not mean God's love failed. It means I have failed. Jesus did make the grace of God available to all the world and therefore is not a failure if some refuse to avail themselves of this gift. That God is more powerful than we and can force us to do anything He wishes is not in question. The question is would the love of God result in God removing our ability to respond to His love by removing our ability to not respond to His love?

 

[Jon0388g]

I agree, but as for the "wicked" not having eternal life -- I would say that the wicked do not have eternal wickedness. That the "wicked," indeed, along with all of us, have God's eternal love.

The next verse:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

If there is one person not saved, then either John 3:17 was lying, or Christ's mission to save the world failed because not all the world was saved.

I believe neither that John 3:17 is false, nor that Christ's mission was a failed mission.

Charlie

I see where you're coming from here, but yes the world was saved by Christ, in that He gave us a chance of being saved in the first place. Without Christ, not one human being from Adam till now (except Elijah/Enoch/Moses )would have a hope of salvation, as we all have sinned.

The only reason the wicked will not be saved is simply because they have not accepted the free gift of salvation from Jesus. Our loving Father would not torture them to an eternity in heaven where they would be in constant contact with Jesus and live a Godly life forever and ever - they simply die the second death and are no more.

 

[Charlie V]

I see where you're coming from here, but yes the world was saved by Christ, in that He gave us a chance of being saved in the first place. Without Christ, not one human being from Adam till now (except Elijah/Enoch/Moses )would have a hope of salvation, as we all have sinned.

Christ is the savior of the world, not the chance-bringer to the world!

The only reason the wicked will not be saved is simply because they have not accepted the free gift of salvation from Jesus.

He's the savior of the world, not the savior of the acceptors.

Charlie

 

[Soul Searcher]

Christ is the savior of the world, not the chance-bringer to the world!



He's the savior of the world, not the savior of the acceptors.

Charlie

 

[Jon0388g]

Christ is the savior of the world, not the chance-bringer to the world!



He's the savior of the world, not the savior of the acceptors.

Charlie

Are you saying that Christ therefore has saved everyone that ever lived and everyone will be in heaven?

 

[Charlie V]

Are you saying that Christ therefore has saved everyone that ever lived and everyone will be in heaven?

That is what the Bible is saying, and that is what the Spirit of the Lord says, and what He revealed to me.

Otherwise, why would it say "savior of the world," if that is what He is not -- why wouldn't it say, "the savior of the acceptors"? Is He the author of confusion?

Charlie

 

[Kimberlyann]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 12 NIV[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." [/FONT]

 

[Kimberlyann]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Philippians 2 NIV[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica](I don't believe this is a forced confession, or it wouldn't be to the glory of the Father.)[/FONT]


Remember;
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Corinthians 12 NIV [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[2ducklow]

Are you saying that Christ therefore has saved everyone that ever lived and everyone will be in heaven?

Are you saying that Christ therefore has saved everyone that ever lived and everyone will be in heaven?

Yes that is the universal doctrine. It changes salvation from faith in Jesus to Jesus saves everybody and nobody needs faith. You can have faith or not, if you have faith you miss their lake of divine purging where people are purified. so they believe in 2 types of salvation one by faith in Jesus and the other by being purified in a lake of divine purifiacation. the latter is heresy IMO because he that believes in Jesus is saved, not he that believes not is saved whether he wants to or not.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes that is the universal doctrine. It changes salvation from faith in Jesus to Jesus saves everybody and nobody needs faith. You can have faith or not, if you have faith you miss their lake of divine purging where people are purified. so they believe in 2 types of salvation one by faith in Jesus and the other by being purified in a lake of divine purifiacation. the latter is heresy because there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.

No actually it implies that all will come to have faith and does not place artifical boundries on the power of God to accomplish his will.