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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.
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Lisa0315
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EchoPneuma said:
The error I find in your view is that it is one-sided. God is love, but He is also just. God loves us unconditionally, but at the same time cannot abide sin. Sin must be dealt with. It must either be set aside out of the presence of God, or payment for that sin must be met. Jesus paid the penalty for our sin, but as with any transaction, it is two-sided. Jesus paid for the sin, and we must accept the transfer of "funds" into our account.
As far as the modern day church fabricating hell, it is a concept that dates back to Christ. Jesus spoke of hell as an eternal place of knashing of teeth.
Again, what hell "is" is inconsequential. The fact that there is a penalty for sin is what we are discussing. To say there is no hell, (insert definition) is to say there is no penalty for sin. God is not a liar. The entire theme of the Bible is the journey to the cross, of one nation who would bring forth a Saviour for the world. If the world rejects Him, the world is lost. Teaching otherwise is wishful thinking and dangerous to the lost souls in the world.
Again, to reiterate, God is not just a God of love and mercy, but He is a God of infinite justice. None of us derserve heaven. We all deserve death and destruction. It is only through the redemptive work of Christ that any of us are saved. To say that Christ saved the entire world at the cross and evil continued, is to say that His work was incomplete. His work is completed in each individual who participates in that two-sided transaction.
IMHO, it is mistrustful to think that God cannot judge the world and condemn some to eternal torment. It is as if it is saying that God is not worthy of our worship UNLESS He does not condemn anyone.
If it were to be shown to you that God does condemn souls to eternal torment, would you still worship Him? If you expect unconditional love from God, is God not worthy of unconditional love from us? How do we judge Almighty God especially since we do not have all the facts? There are facts that are hidden from us that we will understand someday. From a human perspective, we cannot imagine eternal torment as just, but how do we judge God's perspective?
Lisa
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Lisa0315
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Soul Searcher said:
So, lake of fire is clearly different from Hell???? How so? I think it is more like communism vs socialistic totalitarianism. Communism never existed, but the common understanding of the word did. So, hell or lake of fire? Does it matter?
I agree that every word breathed from the mouth of God is the Word of God. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit not only inspired the written word, but guided the selection of the books to be included. We must trust in God to insure that we can uncover false doctrine and false teachings within our church. Otherwise, why not embrace all "holy" books? Should we include the Gospel of Thomas, the DaVinci Code, the Qu'ran, and the Book of Mormon? There are those who claim that these are holy books. How do we know they are not?
I think it all comes down to a matter of faith. Faith comes first. In order to rightly divide the Word of God, one must first have faith.
The best and most controversial example in the Bible is where Joshua has the sun to stand still. Faith says, "Hmm...I don't understand that, but I guess God knew what He was doing when He allowed that to be written" Lack of faith says, "Aha! I have just proven the entire Bible to be false!"
I hope you understand my point.
Lisa
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EchoPneuma
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Lisa0315 said:
So you think for God to be just He has to torment people for ETERNITY??
How does that square with the bible saying that His MERCY endures FOREVER??
God is certainly just....but that still doesn't mean He will torment people for ETERNITY.
Wrong. It is NOT a two sided transaction. It is a ONE SIDED transaction. God did it all. It was HIS plan and HE carried it out. The same way that He placed condemnation upon ALL MEN when Adam sinned (they didn't have to do ANYTHING), He placed righteousness upon ALL MEN when Jesus took their place on the cross.(and they didn't have to do ANYTHING). Jesus tasted death for ALL MEN....therefore no man will EVER be separated from God for eternity (spiritual death).
What faith in Jesus does is save a person from the Lake of Fire (God's purifying fire) which IS a place of chastisement and pain....but it IS NOT eternal.
Wrong again. Jesus never even used the word "hell"....that was put in there by the Catholic Church. Jesus used the word "gehenna", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was constantly burning the garbage from the city. He also used the word "hades" which means "abode of the dead" or "the unseen". And there is no place in the bible where "hell", "hades" "gehenna" or even the "lake of fire" produces "weeping and gnashing of teeth".....that is "outer darkness" that brings that.
Do you even know what "outer darkness" is?
Again, there is no "Hell".....it's not a word that is even in the bible. And it is VERY consequential what it means. It will warp your whole view of the afterlife if you have a wrong understanding of it.
and who has said this but you? I never said there is no penalty for sin. THere certainly is. There is no word "hell" in the bible. There is "gehenna" (a garbage dump), "outer darkness", "hades" and the "Lake of fire". A person will deal with their unrepentance in the Lake of Fire. There is a penalty. But it is NOT eternal.
Nope, He sure isn't. He said "I am not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance".
Is He lying? Will He accomplish His will?
and the bible says that Jesus "came to seek and to SAVE that which was lost"
Are you saying He failed?
Wrong. You're saying that the success of Jesus sacrifice for ALL MEN rests in what MAN DOES or does NOT DO regarding that sacrifice.
That is blasphemy. You are saying that a man, by rejecting Jesus, can NULLIFY what Jesus did on the cross for that man. That it makes Jesus suffering and death for that man MEAN NOTHING if the man has no faith. That Jesus suffered in VAIN for millions of people.
How can you believe that?
No, it's not saying any of that. It's saying I believe exactly what the bible says about God.
The bible says "GOD IS LOVE" and it also says "LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS"....
Therefore God WILL NOT torment anyone for eternity....because that would be Him keeping a record of their wrong for ETERNITY.
It can't be shown, so it's a moot point. I worship the God as revealed in the bible and in my heart. He would NOT torment someone for eternity with no hope and no chance of mercy. A "god" who would do that is not a "god" to be worshipped. It's a false "god".
I don't judge God. I simply believe what the bible says about Him.
He is unconditional love. That means that His love does not depend on someone having faith. His love does not stop when they die. His love does not stop even if they have to go to the Lake of Fire.
The bible says "love NEVER fails". So God's unconditional love WILL somehow reconcile those souls back to Himself.
Tormenting someone for ETERNITY with no hope or mercy IS NOT LOVE.
Therefore, God wouldn't do it.
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Benoni
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Nice way of putting it; I am not Catholic but the word purgatory comes from the greek word pur. Catholics got it some where.menno said:
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Benoni
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There is so much that can be defind right here in the Bible look at the Greek; what is the Bible saying. Hell is not even in the original language; that should say a lot.Lisa0315 said:
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Lisa0315
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EchoPneuma said:
Holes in your doctrine? Please answer the following questions as it applies to your belief.
What is faith for?
What does rejection of Christ mean?
What was the point of the fall of man if no effort was required on the part of man to be reconciled back to God?
Jesus died for all, but not all will accept salvation. You are essentially teaching a doctrine that says that salvation can come after death. This is misleading and has no basis in scripture.
Again, how can one determine the extent of God's love? How can one determine what is love and what is not at God's level?
What about the martyrs under the altar of God who cry out for justice? What are they crying out for?
Lisa
PS: I appreciate how respectful the discussion has been so far. I am grateful to discuss this without anger or emotionalism. Please understand that I would like the idea of salvation for all, but I do not believe it to be in line with the Bible.
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Lisa0315
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Benoni said:
I don't think the word "hell" is the problem. I think the word "eternity" is the point of disagreement. For me, it doesn't matter if hell is a literal lake of fire or not. What is important is that the teaching that salvation can occur after death be abolished.
Lisa
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hybrid
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Harlin said:Amen Lisa,I agree, you have to throw out a lot of scripture to come up with all will be saved. Period.
God Bless,
Harlin
the same is true that you need to add a lot to scriptures to come up that majority of humanity will be tortured forever.
hi. it's me again, harlin and i'm fine.
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GeorgeE said:
hi george,
what awesome understanding are you talking about, John already gave it's meaning... lof is the second death.
to me this is axiomatic. but i guess to you, you need to make an awesome explanation that second death doesn't really mean death...
please do, i'm realy interested what you have to say about it. (i.e. the second death)
ps. have we met before in other boards? you're name sounds familiar.
.
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The first death is we are all dead in Adam; we are dead spiritually in that we are cannot see, hear, smell, touch, taste God. Adam lived for many years after he sinned; he had died spiritually. I also find it interesting the fact as man kind got further from the Garden of Eden their lives got shorter and shorter until there ages are what we see as normal now. I sure that had to do with that death process and the departure from the glory of God presence.hybrid said:
I believe the second death is death to self. As you seek God’s presence you come closer to his glory; God is killing the Adam man within; replacing it with the Christ man. Notice the overcome is not hurt by the second death or the lake of Fire; He has already been processed. Either you will go though the process now or you will go thought it latter. God will have a pure and holy people; this is a process of purification.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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THE SECOND DEATH
The book of Revelation is a book of symbols. In the introduction to this marvelous book the beloved John explains, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John" (Rev. 1:1). The word "signified" is from the Greek SEMAINO meaning to indicate or communicate by means of signs and symbols. The meanings of all the symbols of the Revelation are given, either in the book itself, or elsewhere in the Scriptures. The first things John beheld when in Spirit was One like unto the Son of man, standing in the midst of seven golden candlesticks, holding seven stars in His right hand. The One like unto the Son of man is identified as the resurrected and glorified Lord, for this One says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore" (Rev. 1:10, 17-18). The other symbols of that first vision are interpreted as follows: "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven Churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven Churches" (Rev. 1:20). Children in school learn what we call definitions. A definition is an explanatory statement which tells us exactly what a certain thing is, as "an island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water." God also gives us definitions in His Word. He tells us exactly what certain things are. And in the Scripture just quoted He has told us exactly what the seven stars and the seven candlesticks are. Those are God's definitions. And in Rev. 20:14 God tells us exactly what the SECOND DEATH is. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH." Now let me make this a little plainer. Definitions of men can be given backward. For instance, the definition, "An island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water," can be given thus: "A tract of land completely surrounded by water is an island." This is but another way of stating the same fact. It does not, in any way, change the meaning. Now let us try this on the definition of the second death. The Bible states it thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS the second death." Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire! This fact is very IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. The second death is not men being tortured for ever in the lake of fire. The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.
Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH!
The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
"All Bible statements prove that the two deaths are absolutely UNLIKE, and that the two are opposite and antagonistic. The second death undoes all the work of the first death in the same manner that the last Adam undid all the work of the first Adam. Not to nullify the purpose being wrought out by the plan of God in the firsts, but to bring a release from the firsts in a MUCH MORE manner of majesty and glory and power and scope of coverage, into the greater and glorious things of God. Creation was made subject to vanity for a purpose! Sin was allowed for wise ends, but when those ends have been secured it will have to cease to exist. The purpose is not nullified, but the means whereby the purpose has been executed shall be done away. Discipline is a means to an end, but not an end in itself, it leads up to the 'AFTERWARDS YIELDING THE PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and lives unto God, and so fulfills all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.
"Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' - 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more - not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality - but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it - only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, He is destroying the first death with the second death!
"All the Crucifixion, our identification with the cross of Christ, must first be accepted by faith as a fact, and then the working of it in and through us is a process. If it is done now, through our yieldedness to the call and the claims of Christ upon us, we won't have to face it later, in what is called 'the lake of fire,' which is the second death. The passing through that lake of divine purification will thoroughly purge out the last remaining fragments of the rebellion and waywardness of man, till the mystery of iniquity is no more, and then the carnal mind being abolished, death is no more" -end quote.
It is true that some men are cast into the processing of the lake of fire. But what a disreputable lot! "...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." These are men saturated with the power of the first death - dead in trespasses and in sins, sold under sin, slaves to every devilish passion, possessed of corrupt and perverse natures, obsessed with every evil device, unrelentingly driven by the spirit of the world, the flesh, and the devil. And nothing God has done has yet broken these stubborn wills or brought these men to repentance. The wages of sin has not broken them. The harvest of evil has not broken them. Hell has not broken them. The tender mercies of the Lord have not broken them. The Spirit has faithfully told us of a second death into which unbelieving and incorrigibly wicked men shall surely go. They go there with death and with hell. The second death will be an experience and a period of time similar to this first death we are now experiencing, but much more terrible and severe than anything we now know. The penalty of sin is very great. The processes of God to break the resistance of willfully wicked men are extremely severe. Not only in this present age do they smite us, but in that second death which is to come. It can only be described as the "lake of fire." This terrible death is reserved for those who have not profited from the previous judgments and still need further correction to subdue them to the will of God. When the process is complete, and the last sinner has emerged from the discipline with a broken and contrite spirit, having learned the lessons of the awful fruit of man's "own way," fully yielding to the Lordship of our Saviour, then at last shall be fulfilled the beautiful promise: "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL THINGS new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful" (Rev. 21:3-5).
Whatever we hold as the nature of the death state, may we let this truth sink deep into our hearts: DEATH IS TO BE ABOLISHED. The ringing declaration, "The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26), overthrows the whole structure of accepted, but unproved, theology which shuts up the mass of the human race in "eternal death." When the "last" enemy is abolished it is self-evident that none remains. Those wretched religionists who demand the endlessness of death, who argue for eternal torment in the lake of fire, the second death, do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. The lake of fire MUST end because death and hell are cast into it, which is the second death, and in the end THERE SHALL BE N-O M-O-R-E D-E-A-T-H.
No more death! No more first death. No more second death. No more of any kind of death. To say there is no more death is to say that there are no more sinners, for sinners are DEAD MEN, dead in trespasses and in sins. To say there is no more death is to say that God has not "burned up" all the wicked and left them dead, or in hell, for as long as any creature of God is in a state of death, death is not abolished. To say there is no more death is to say there is no more hell, for hell is "the realm of the dead." To say there is no more death is to say there is no more a lake of fire, for the lake of fire IS the second DEATH. To say there is no more death is to say there is no more sin, for "the wages of sin is DEATH." What a universe of truth is contained in three little words: NO MORE DEATH!
This grand truth seems to be almost unknown in the Church systems. Although the very climax and fulfillment of all revelation, it has been eclipsed by human perversions. As a result the God of the popular Churches has lost the essential attributes of Deity. He is like the foolish man who started to build but could not finish. Man's theology brings nothing to a conclusion. It attains no definite goal. Sin, suffering, and insubjection are never conquered. Death is never destroyed. Redemption is never fully secured. God is compelled to work an eternal miracle in order to maintain a never-ending eyesore in His creation, once so subject, so sinless, and so good. He has to eternally keep His great foot on the lid of hell; for if even one of the devils should get out there would be hell everywhere! But death in all its forms shall be destroyed until it shall be said, "There is no more death!" Jesus is Conqueror! Then shall every creature in the universe bow and in glad chorus sing, "O death, where is they sting? O grave, where is your victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be unto God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" (I Cor. 15:55-57).
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Lisa0315 said:
I believe God will punish the wicked; I have already establish that in an earlier post.
And you are right the translators will tell you the word everlasting comes from the word aionios; but it is not right.
If you look at the word goat in the Greek it is kid; which is a baby goat.
world].
Sheep Separated from Goats
Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids [and he shall part them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half [and the kids forsooth on his left half].
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
According to the Bible God is going to burn a baby goat in everlasting fire. Literally or figuratively this makes no sense; the problem is the word everlasting is a bad translation.
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"Can anyone suppose that these peculiar forms have no special meaning? Is all this a mere play upon words? Simply purposeless repetition? Remember, God by His Spirit is the real author of the inspired Word. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." Is it not certain, then, as I have said, that these varying forms, so peculiar and striking, hide some spiritual mystery? And would it have not been more respectful to the Word if the translators of the common version (KJV) had rendered these expressions literally, even though they did not know what they meant, rather than to obscure the sense altogether with capricious renderings?
These translators (of my precious KJV) have handled this word (aeon) apparently without any respect whatever to its real meaning. They have rendered its various combinations in thirteen ways, age, course, world, eternal, since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and with a negative, never. These are not translations but paraphrases, and look to me like 'handling the Word of God deceitfully,' albeit it may have been unintentional."
Example:
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!
When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.
Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.
Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).
Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.
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GeorgeE said:
you're understanding of first and second death are rather esoteric, and semed to be different with preston's understanding.
he explained second death rather ontologically, which seemed to agree with my post, i.e. second death is truly death.
so if death is cessation or anihilation, what john meant was that the beast, false prophet , the devil will cease to exist anymore when thrown to the lof.
the first death could mean spiritual death or physical death or what ever kind death can symbolize but clearly the second death was a divine contrivance to symbolize the end of all wickedness and ungodliness that is necessary to usher the new age.
can you agree with this?
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I was in such a hurry this morning I apologies for my babble and would love to direct you to an article by J Preston Eby which you can find on the internet by going to:Lisa0315 said:
The Lambs Book of Life by J Preston Eby. This is an awesome and deep study and not a bunch of babble from me. I am so focused on this eternal torment Forum.
GeorgeE.
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Jesus annihilated death on Calvary; that is the first death. He truly died and turned the whole death process around. God’s seconds are always more glorious and better then His first. Preston has a great article on this I highly recommend. Called the Second Death by J Preston Eby; just do a Google searchhybrid said:
Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
Rom 11:32:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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fatboys
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First off Adam did not sin, Adam transgressed the law. The results of his disobedience was the same as if he had sinned, but not knowing good from evil, Adam certainly could not have made a choice in knowledge. Because of the transgression of Adam, sin entered into the world. The world was no longer perfect. This imperfection was passed on to all posterity. Because of this, we are born into imperfection. Because of this, we are doomed. We could not return to God in this state. And thus the reason for a atonement. It makes little sense to me, that God who knows all would create, and place billions of people on earth and then only select a few chosen and send the rest to Hell. I believe the playing field is more fair than what mainstream Christians believe. To me, Hell is coming face to face with the person you could have been.
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