Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

[Bible Highlighter]

couple of things:

1.) Luke 16:19-31 begins with "there was a certain...". there is no narrative in the Gospel of Luke to suggest that there is any other place that when Jesus starts with the phrase "there was a certain...", it is referring to a literal historical story. Jesus never said these stories ever literally happened. Could hey have? sure, they could have... but that's not the point to why Jesus used parables. He used parables to illustrate a spiritual meaning about the Kingdom of Heaven, not about a real life situation that happened.

I think our culture has been over saturated with fiction from movies, novels, comics, etcetera. I grew up quoting from movies with my friends (even though I have now put them away because of Jesus Christ). Our current culture’s way of thinking, speaking and acting is immersed with these fictional things and they think it is normal and true to them to a great degree. Even our young generation today (in public schools) is being taught fictional things that affects the basic morality that God desires them to have. As a result, they are being brain washed with lies to be hardened against the truth of God’s Holy Word. The lies of fiction in entertainment is no different. Some entertainment today subtly pushes sin with it chipping away slowly at the heart of the man of God (Who may watch them). But there has to be a breaking point in a believer’s life where the sin in this culture and entertainment forces us to say…”no to this ungodliness.” We have to come to a point where we will no longer put up with the lies or sinful fiction or the thinking that fiction is truth.

Jesus said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” (John 17:17).
Jesus was referring to God the Father’s words that He was commanded to say to others so as to sanctify them.
Technically speaking, a fictional story is not true. It’s not truth. It’s a non-truth. This is what leads me to believe that every parable Jesus told was based on a real life story (Whether it happened in the past, or it taking place sometime in the future).
This is all the argument I need to make my case and any other consideration is a consideration of something that is non-truth when Jesus said God the Father’s words were truth. It’s like when you want a true story in a book store (i.e., you want truth), you go to the non-fiction section of the book store and even then… some of these non-fiction stories are inspired by a true story and they are not a literal retelling of events. You got kids today making their own truth by the brainwashing public school system, and not accepting the truth of God’s Word. I think it is time to move out from the fog and lies of fiction and embrace the understanding that whatever God says is true 100%.

I mean, I get it. I don’t like the idea of hell. I don’t want people to suffer there. But God knows all things and there is a reason for it in the fact that sin is more horrible than we imagine that demands justice or punishment. Jesus was not speaking of some metaphorical place in Matthew 5:28-30. He was telling it to us straight that if we sin, and we not put them away, it means hellfire and He is warning us that we should not go there because the flames are really bad in the fact that they cause a whole body pain. Yes, I do believe Jesus uses figures of speech or metaphors, but his warning us about hell is not a metaphor. His warning would then be pointless. Granted, I see hell as a temporary place, and I also believe in the possibility that a wicked person living in the times of Noah has not been consciously suffering since that whole time period but they are awakened at certain times for their punishment. I am led to believe this as one possibility involving hell because our God is fair, just, and good in everything He does.

Grace, peace, and love to you, my brother.

May the Lord’s good ways always shine upon you and your family.

 

[RileyG]

I voted for eternal damnation because God does not force himself on anyone, that's why we have free will. We are human beings, not robots. If someone hates God, they do not want to be in the presence of God for all eternity. That's just my perspective.

 

[Der Alte]

Are you saying these verses support or deny inclusivism? When I read them, I think they support them. One passage that I read that leans me more towards inclusivism is in Matthew 25 when God gathers the nations to separate the sheep from the goats. In saying "nations", I see this as those who may not be part of the Body. God has mercy on the sheep because they fed and clothed the least of His and thus did so unto Him. I think a group of believers would not be addressed like this or confused to why they were being praised for this, since we are called to do those works as followers of Christ; it would make more sense for a group of unbelievers to react this way.

I was responding to your previous post not starting a new discussion.

 

[Light on the Hill]

I was responding to your previous post not starting a new discussion.

I get that, I was trying to see what point you were trying to make by posting those verses. Not trying to derail to topic, sorry.

 

[Der Alte]

I get that, I was trying to see what point you were trying to make by posting those verses. Not trying to derail to topic, sorry.

IMHO those vss. provide for those who have not heard the gospel also infants, children, mentally handicapped, those who live in remote areas and never heard the gospel. etc. but those who have heard and can comprehend the gospel they are responsible for their salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the Greek word “Gehenna” could possibly describing Hades (the place of hell) being burned up in the Lake of Fire after it had been cast into it (Revelation 20:14); Meaning, Hades or the place of torments has changed its location to be destroyed over an undetermined amount of time in the Lake of Fire. Hence, why “Gehenna” is still translated as “hell” in the English. Hell is still a place and not just a people because the Bible talks about the gates of Hades (hell).

i disagree

I always like back-and-forth discussions because they challenge me to examine my beliefs again.
So I decided to look at the Greek words for the English word "hell" with fresh eyes and offer up another possibility.

Verse references in picture source above (for your convenience in looking them up quickly):
Acts 2:31, Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 12:40, 1 Peter 3:19-20, Luke 23:43, Matthew 16:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:14, Matthew 10:28, Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13, 2 Peter 2:4.

The diverse definitions involving these Greek words help us get a little more specific and detailed, involving their possible deeper meanings. So how can the word “hell” have so many distinct meanings? Well, the Bible has homonyms within it. Homonyms are words that look and sound the same but can have different definitions. I believe this is the case involving the word “hell” and its context, and Greek word helps us to determine their usage. For example, The word “repent” has different meanings in the King James Bible. Click on the spoiler button to see an example:

Spoiler

The Different Uses of the Greek Words:

I. Hades:

The reason behind “Hades” being defined as the devil’s kingdom.

(1) Gates of hell.
(2) The Rider called “Death,” and “Hell” followed with him.

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A. Gates of hell:​

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Matthew 16:18 (KJB)​

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“…upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”​

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Many Christians think hell is exclusively a place of torment that the rich man went to in Luke 16:19-31. However, while the word “hell” (Hades) can sometimes refer to such a place (like in Luke 16:19-31), I believe it would be more accurate to say that the meaning of “hell” is “the devil’s kingdom.” Matthew 16:18 is in support of this. Matthew 16:18 basically says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. It says, “gates of hell.” Gates are doors. Can “doors of the place of torments” (of the place that the rich man was in) actually wage any kind of battle (to prevail) against the church? No. Doors are not sentient beings to wage any kind of war here.​

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So a more logical definition of “gates of hell” in this verse would be…​

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1. Doors or doorways of the devil’s kingdom (or):
2. Entryways (Strategies or schemes) of the devil’s kingdom, such as sin, heretical destructive beliefs, and the dark spiritual influences of this kingdom, all of which get a person to sin and turn away from the faith.

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In fact, in this same chapter, Jesus rebukes Peter by calling him Satan in verse 23 (which is just five verses down from verse 18).​

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Matthew 16:18 (KJB)​

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“…upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell [the entryways or schemes of the devil’s kingdom] shall not prevail against it.”​

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Important Note: The words in blue within the brackets above are my commentary on the text.​

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B. The Rider named “Death,” and Hell followed with him:​

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Revelation 6:8 (KJB)​

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“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. …”​

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In Revelation 6, when the fourth seal is broken, a rider on a pale horse appears named “Death.” But what is interesting is that this verse also says that “Hell” followed with him.​

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I would propose to you that “Hell” (Hades) in Revelation 6:8 refers to the Devil’s Kingdom again.​

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This also fits with the Rider named “Death,” as well. According to Hebrews 2:14, it could be suggestive in such a way that the devil is "death," seeing he has power over death.​

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“…that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;” (Hebrews 2:14) (KJB).​

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So in Revelation 6:8, the fourth seal is the appearance of the devil and his kingdom (Hell, Hades, or his minions or demons) that followed him would bring about death that would result in one-fourth of the inhabitants upon the Earth being killed.​

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Revelation 6:8 (KJB)​

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“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death [a.k.a. the devil], and Hell [the devil’s kingdom, i.e., his minions or demons] followed with him. …”​

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This also helps to explain Revelation 20:13-15.​

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Revelation 20:13-15 (KJB)​

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13 “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death [a.k.a. the devil]​

and hell [the devil’s kingdom, i.e., his minions or demons] delivered up the dead [the wicked] which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

14 And death [a.k.a. the devil] and hell [the devil’s kingdom, his demons and wicked people] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”​

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Side Note:​

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The context forces us to use “hell” slightly differently in this passage above.​

The devil and his demons delivered up the wicked dead people. It is also said "the dead" was in the devil and these demons (See verse 13). This is why I interpret “hell” as being defined as both demons and wicked mankind in verse 14. So how does this rendering work with the devil being cast into the Lake of Fire in verse 10? Well, Revelation 20:10 would be much like the creation of the man and the woman on the sixth day mentioned in Genesis 1 and yet their creation is mentioned in more detail in Genesis 2. Verse 10 gives us the basic title information, and verses 13-15 give us more details. 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This is the devil (Hebrews 2:14).​

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Anyways, while I am aware that the word “Hades” is translated once as “grave” in 1 Corinthians 15:55 in the King James Bible, the majority of its usages are translated as “hell” in the New Testament. Now, the traditional Conditional Immortality viewpoint believes “Hades” should be translated as “grave.” However, in Revelation 20:14, translating the word “hades” in this verse as meaning “grave” does not make a whole lot of sense because how can “death” and “the grave” be cast into the Lake of Fire? Verse 13 makes a clear reference that death and hell are referred to as “them.” (Two things). The “dead” were in “them.” (i.e., the dead wicked people were in these two things, which are death and hell). So one cannot translate “Hades” as “grave” in Revelation 20:14. Hades cannot be a reference to death or the grave. The grave is not synonymous with death in Revelation 20:14. In John 8: Jesus said to the wicked Jews that He spoke with, “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” (John 8:44). So at that point in time, these Jews were said to be of the devil’s kingdom. So wicked people can be in the devil and his kingdom (his demons) as a result of their actions upon their lusts in partaking of sin. This truth in John 8 aligns well with the interpretation that death is the devil and hell is his kingdom (i.e., His demons and wicked people who were of their father the devil) in Revelation 20:14.​

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Important Note:​

Again, the words in blue within the brackets above are my commentary on the text.​

II. Gehenna:

Many Conditionalists like myself would agree that Matthew 10:28 is the money verse in defining how Gehenna is a reference to the Lake of Fire because this clearly describes how Jesus is able to destroy both body and soul in “hell” (Gehenna). The reason why Gehenna may be translated as “hell” may be due to the fact that it is the “lowest hell” mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:22, and Psalms 86:13.

Deuteronomy 32:22
“For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.”

Psalms 86:13
“For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.”


III. Tartaroo:

This Greek word “Tartaroo” for the English word “hell” is only used once in the King James Bible. It is found in 2 Peter 2:4. It appears that this word “hell” (Tartaroo) can be defined as a present day distinct place of punishment in hell which exists specifically for a select group of rebellious angels (that will end after the Judgment). I believe that 2 peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 are both talking about another group of angels (a good while after the fall of Satan and his angels who tried to take over God’s throne) who decided to also rebel against God and fall from their habitation (domain) in Heaven by marrying the daughters of men before the flood, and after the flood. This created a new hybrid offspring or race of beings that were known as the “Giants” (Nephilim) in the Bible. The sons of God (angels - Job 1:6, Job 2:1, and Job 38:7) took to themselves the daughters of men. As a result, God punished them by placing them currently in chains of darkness in “Tartaroo” (hell) or the underworld.

Please. I encourage you to be a good Berean and double-check the definitions of these words for yourself at BlueLetterBible.org (if you are interested). I am also not claiming that my definitions are 100% fact, but they are possibilities based on the context.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family in the name of LORD.

 

[Der Alte]

I always like back-and-forth discussions because they challenge me to examine my beliefs again.
So I decided to look at the Greek words for the English word "hell" with fresh eyes and offer up another possibility.
The word “hell” is correct in the King James Bible, but it is not a clear word. The Greek word: “Hades” for the English word “hell” can be translated as “the devil’s kingdom” or “the realm of the dead (which is in the heart of the earth).” The Greek word “Tartaroo” (hell) can be translated as “underworld.” The Greek word “Gehenna” (hell) appears to be more clearly defined as either “the final fate or end of the devil’s kingdom” or “the fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Depending on the context). This final fate or end of the devil’s kingdom would be “the Lake of Fire.” I see the fire in hell as the same one in the Lake of Fire, but it will be more intense and all-encompassing.
The diverse definitions involving these Greek words help us get a little more specific and detailed, involving their precise meanings. So how can the word “hell” have so many distinct meanings? Well, the Bible has homonyms within it. Homonyms are words that look and sound the same but can have different definitions. I believe this is the case involving the word “hell” and its context, and Greek word helps us to determine their usage. For example, The word “repent” has different meanings in the King James Bible. Click on the spoiler button to see an example:

Please. I encourage you to be a good Berean and double-check the definitions of these words for yourself at BlueLetterBible.org (if you are interested).
May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family in the name of LORD.

Somewhat interesting but largely irrelevant essay. While what you say might be relevant when addressing something written by Greeks, with a pagan POV, none of the books in the NT were written by Greeks but but Jews, with an OT Jewish POV.
Below is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia this encyclopedia documents that ca. 800 years +/- before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" which were written as "Hades" and "Gehenna" in the 225 BC Septuagint LXX and also the NT.
And I am really not interested in anyone's opinion about the article. The Jews know their own history.
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Super Kal]

Bible Highlighter, i already know what these words mean
Sheol is the abode of the dead for both the righteous and the unrighteous
Hades is the Greek equivalent to Sheol
Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem that, at the time, was used as a garbage dump. people threw their refuse and garbage into the valley, and city officials kept the valley aflame by keeping fires lit day and night, so that whatever was thrown into the fire, the fires would consume the garbage and leave nothing left except ashes.
Tartarus was a place in Greek mythology where terrible individuals were kept until further judgment. Peter uses the plural form, "tartaroo"... i prefer to use the phrase "everlasting chains" as opposed to "hell" because, as Peter himself states, these fallen angels are being kept there "unto the judgment"... that means at the time of writing this verse, the final judgment had not occurred yet, and will not occur until after the events of Revelation 6-18
i disagreed with you because in the part where i quoted, you were insistent on continuing to use the word "hell" to describe the lake of fire... i 100% disagree with that mindset.

i am one of those that says "hell doesnt exist" on the basis that Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and "tartaroo" are not all the same place. "Hell" is neither Greek of Hebrew. it is strictly English i will never again tell someone "if you don't repent you're gonna burn in hell", I tell them "if you don't repent you will suffer the second death" because that statement is 100% accurate, and found within scripture. telling them the latter is not, and if they chose to look up what these words mean, it will only cause confusion to continue to insinuate that hell is the Lake of Fire.

i did not delve into why i disagreed with you that day because i was keeping my anger in check.
you accused me, and everyone who disagreed with you concerning Luke 16:19-31, of having a liberal mindset of scripture...
i stand by the point i made about parables, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm no longer going to address Luke 16:19-31 because it has nothing to do with what happens to a person and the end of time, when all the dead will be judged according to their works

you want to disagree with me, fine. you want to write some dissertation that it's a literal story, fine.
but dont ever imply that I, or others like me (Chris Date included), view scriptures through a liberal mindset just because we disagree with you on Luke 16:19-31.
that's an ad hominem. and i expect an apology from you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible Highlighter, i already know what these words mean

I liked to be challenged even on things I think I know. Did you try testing these definitions out to see if they make sense?

Sheol is the abode of the dead for both the righteous and the unrighteous
Hades is the Greek equivalent to Sheol
Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem that, at the time, was used as a garbage dump. people threw their refuse and garbage into the valley, and city officials kept the valley aflame by keeping fires lit day and night, so that whatever was thrown into the fire, the fires would consume the garbage and leave nothing left except ashes.
Tartarus was a place in Greek mythology where terrible individuals were kept until further judgment. Peter uses the plural form, "tartaroo"... i prefer to use the phrase "everlasting chains" as opposed to "hell" because, as Peter himself states, these fallen angels are being kept there "unto the judgment"... that means at the time of writing this verse, the final judgment had not occurred yet, and will not occur until after the events of Revelation 6-18
i disagreed with you because in the part where i quoted, you were insistent on continuing to use the word "hell" to describe the lake of fire... i 100% disagree with that mindset.

I don’t believe all the words “hell” refers to the Lake of fire. My study shows the differences of the Greek words for the English word “hell.”

i am one of those that says "hell doesnt exist" on the basis that Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and "tartaroo" are not all the same place. "Hell" is neither Greek of Hebrew. it is strictly English i will never again tell someone "if you don't repent you're gonna burn in hell", I tell them "if you don't repent you will suffer the second death" because that statement is 100% accurate, and found within scripture. telling them the latter is not,

But Jesus warned us about hell in the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man.

and if they chose to look up what these words mean, it will only cause confusion to continue to insinuate that hell is the Lake of Fire.

Hell is an unclear word that has multiple meanings like the word “repent.” I would say Gehenna is best described as the Lake of Fire.

i did not delve into why i disagreed with you that day because i was keeping my anger in check.
you accused me, and everyone who disagreed with you concerning Luke 16:19-31, of having a liberal mindset of scripture...
i stand by the point i made about parables, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm no longer going to address Luke 16:19-31 because it has nothing to do with what happens to a person and the end of time, when all the dead will be judged according to their works

you want to disagree with me, fine. you want to write some dissertation that it's a literal story, fine.
but dont ever imply that I, or others like me (Chris Date included), view scriptures through a liberal mindset just because we disagree with you on Luke 16:19-31.
that's an ad hominem. and i expect an apology from you.

Please provide me the post number and I will review it. I looked back and only seen my mentioning how UR was akin to liberalism. By the way, you agreed with me on that point that UR is liberalism. I believe a Christian can be evangelical and conservative (not liberal) overall, and yet they can be liberal when it comes to interpreting a specific part of Scripture (Depending on what it is). I don’t recall saying Traditional Conditional Immortality Christians are liberals.

I imagine some Christians may think I am being liberal with the story of Noah and Ham but that does not mean they would classify me as a liberal.

See my write-up here:

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent. Introduction: The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it. For Hosea 12:10 says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." To not understand...

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[Der Alte]

Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem that, at the time, was used as a garbage dump. people threw their refuse and garbage into the valley, and city officials kept the valley aflame by keeping fires lit day and night, so that whatever was thrown into the fire, the fires would consume the garbage and leave nothing left except ashes. ***

Totally false. Yes there is a valley outside Jerusalem named Ge Hinnom BUT it was never used as a trash dump. There was such a dump but it was the next valley over the Kidron valley NOT Gehinnom.

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage​

​

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com
Also see my post #348, above. I actually research what I post.​

 

[Andrewn]

Yes there is a valley outside Jerusalem named Ge Hinnom BUT it was never used as a trash dump. There was such a dump but it was the next valley over the Kidron valley NOT Gehinnom.

This is consistent w/ the Gospels since the Potter's Field was bought for the burial of the poor and foreigners.

 

[Super Kal]

I liked to be challenged even on things I think I know. Did you try testing these definitions out to see if they make sense?

being a former traditionalist for 15 years, yes i have.

I don’t believe all the words “hell” refers to the Lake of fire.

>>I believe the Greek word “Gehenna” could possibly describing Hades (the place of hell)<<
they are not the same place. you make that claim because you take Luke 16:19-31 literally. I dont.

My study shows the differences of the Greek words for the English word “hell.”

exactly. both Sheol and Hades are the same place. Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem used to burn up garbage, and "tartaroo" (plural form of Tartarus) is more accurately described as everlasting chains, where the fallen angels currently are, awaiting final judgment, which will occur after the thousand year reign with Christ, Revelation 20:11-15...
the KJV uses that one word to describe three different places... and it is for this reason why i refer to both Sheol and Hades as "the abode of the dead", "tartaroo" as "everlasting chains", and "gehenna fire" as the lake of fire... and this is also exactly why I never use the word "hell" anymore.
it creates confusion and division,
Jesus never used the word, the Apostles never used the word, and the students of the Apostles never used the word. The Syriac Peshitta, the first non-English translation of the New Testament, never used the English word "hell". The word "hell" wasnt used until 1382 AD, with the Wycliffe translation of the New Testament

But Jesus warned us about hell in the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man.

Jesus didnt say "hell". He said "Hades":
"καὶ ἐν τῷ Ἅιδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς"
"and in Hades he lift up his eyes"

Hades is not Gehenna. Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. the Lake of Fire is where we find "gehenna fire", since Jesus refers back to that valley which was constantly on fire in His time, and referencing Isaiah 66:24 to describe what kind of fire will be found in the Lake of fire, and how it will not be put out until it has consumed all that has been thrown in that fire

Rev20:14 YLT
"and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death"
already explained to you why i think that's a parable, not getting into that with you again

Hell is an unclear word that has multiple meanings like the word “repent.” I would say Gehenna is best described as the fire prepared for the devil and his angels (which is another term for the Lake of Fire). I believe the Lake of Fire is made up of hellfire and that is why it can also be called “hell” (although it is not the other hell, which is Hades).

the word repent means "a change of mind"
if you wanna get technical: from G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):—repentance.
Scripture never once uses the phrase "hellfire". it says "the gehenna of fire"
Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 18:9
"την γεενναν του πυρος"
"the gehenna of fire"...

Please provide me the post number and I will review it. I looked back and only seen my mentioning how UR was akin to liberalism. By the way, you agreed with me on that point that UR is liberalism. I believe a Christian can be evangelical and conservative (not liberal) overall, and yet they can be liberal when it comes to interpreting a specific part of Scripture (Depending on what it is). I don’t recall saying Traditional Conditional Immortality Christians are liberals.

Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

I find CI to be a definite step up from ECT. At least CI, in contrast to ECT, doesn't portray God as choosing to perpetuate sin and evil forever! But it still keeps glory and honor from God. Divine love is not powerful enough to overcome sin and evil. God can bring creation into being from...

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>>There is no indication in Scripture it just a myth and our Lord Jesus was not into telling fables. Jesus speaks 100% truth.<<
you're implying that just because i believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, you automatically assume I don't believe what Jesus says is true, and that the Bible, whether you mean just that collection of verse or the Bible itself, is a myth.
i take great offense to that, and i can guarantee you that every Conditionalist that I know that sees Luke 16:19-31 as a parable would be just as quick as i am to point out your mischaracterizations of those who disagree with you.

 

[Der Alte]

being a former traditionalist for 15 years, yes i have.
>>I believe the Greek word “Gehenna” could possibly describing Hades (the place of hell)<<
they are not the same place. you make that claim because you take Luke 16:19-31 literally. I dont.
exactly. both Sheol and Hades are the same place. Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem used to burn up garbage, and "tartaroo" (plural form of Tartarus) is more accurately described as everlasting chains, where the fallen angels currently are, awaiting final judgment, which will occur after the thousand year reign with Christ, Revelation 20:11-15...
the KJV uses that one word to describe three different places... and it is for this reason why i refer to both Sheol and Hades as "the abode of the dead", "tartaroo" as "everlasting chains", and "gehenna fire" as the lake of fire... and this is also exactly why I never use the word "hell" anymore.
it creates confusion and division,
Jesus never used the word, the Apostles never used the word, and the students of the Apostles never used the word. The Syriac Peshitta, the first non-English translation of the New Testament, never used the English word "hell". The word "hell" wasnt used until 1382 AD, with the Wycliffe translation of the New Testament
Jesus didnt say "hell". He said "Hades":
"καὶ ἐν τῷ Ἅιδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς"
"and in Hades he lift up his eyes"
Hades is not Gehenna. Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. the Lake of Fire is where we find "gehenna fire", since Jesus refers back to that valley which was constantly on fire in His time, and referencing Isaiah 66:24 to describe what kind of fire will be found in the Lake of fire, and how it will not be put out until it has consumed all that has been thrown in that fire
Rev20:14 YLT
"and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death"
already explained to you why i think that's a parable, not getting into that with you again
the word repent means "a change of mind"
if you wanna get technical: from G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):—repentance.
Scripture never once uses the phrase "hellfire". it says "the gehenna of fire"
Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 18:9
"την γεενναν του πυρος"
"the gehenna of fire"...

Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

I find CI to be a definite step up from ECT. At least CI, in contrast to ECT, doesn't portray God as choosing to perpetuate sin and evil forever! But it still keeps glory and honor from God. Divine love is not powerful enough to overcome sin and evil. God can bring creation into being from...

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>>There is no indication in Scripture it just a myth and our Lord Jesus was not into telling fables. Jesus speaks 100% truth.<<
you're implying that just because i believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, you automatically assume I don't believe what Jesus says is true, and that the Bible, whether you mean just that collection of verse or the Bible itself, is a myth.
i take great offense to that, and i can guarantee you that every Conditionalist that I know that sees Luke 16:19-31 as a parable would be just as quick as i am to point out your mischaracterizations of those who disagree with you.

What is the source of your information? According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" which were written in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the NT as "Hades" and "Gehenna." And in that article they equate "Gehenna" and "Sheol" with the English word "Hell," 22 times.
Link:

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Andrewn]

they are not the same place.

I agree that Hades and Gehenna are not the same place even though, as @Der Alte wrote, "before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Sheol and Ge Hinnom." Most Christians have always believed that Gehenna is the Lake of Fire based mainly on Mat 10:28.

Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem used to burn up garbage,

There are reasons to believe that the Dead Sea was called the Lake of Fire and used to have smoke that smelled like sulfur coming out of it. But this does not mean that Revelation refers literally to the Dead Sea.

the KJV uses that one word to describe three different places... and it is for this reason why i refer to both Sheol and Hades as "the abode of the dead", "tartaroo" as "everlasting chains", and "gehenna fire" as the lake of fire... and this is also exactly why I never use the word "hell" anymore. it creates confusion and division,

I agree. The common understanding of people today about Hell is akin of Gehenna / LOF. But Bibles have translated Hades as Hell which is confusing to modern people.

I agree with you about annihilation in Gehenna / LOF. But I think there is a chance of salvation in Hades. The rich man in Hades was repentant. At least I hope so for the sake of those who did not hear the Gospel in this life. But only God knows.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that Hades and Gehenna are not the same place even though, as @Der Alte wrote, "before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Sheol and Ge Hinnom." Most Christians have always believed that Gehenna is the Lake of Fire based mainly on Mat 10:28.
There are reasons to believe that the Dead Sea was called the Lake of Fire and used to have smoke that smelled like sulfur coming out of it. But this does not mean that Revelation refers literally to the Dead Sea.
I agree. The common understanding of people today about Hell is akin of Gehenna / LOF. But Bibles have translated Hades as Hell which is confusing to modern people.
I agree with you about annihilation in Gehenna / LOF. But I think there is a chance of salvation in Hades. The rich man in Hades was repentant. At least I hope so for the sake of those who did not hear the Gospel in this life. But only God knows.

According to Abraham the rich man in hades could not leave where he was. Although the rich man was dead, he could experience torment in flames and thirst.

 

[Light on the Hill]

What is the source of your information? According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "Sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" which were written in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the NT as "Hades" and "Gehenna." And in that article they equate "Gehenna" and "Sheol" with the English word "Hell," 22 times.
Link:

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

So I read the article and it is only about Ge Hinnom, no mention of Sheol. It does explain that there was a concept of eternal punishment, but I saw some support for the other two views as well (CI more so, UR not so strongly). I'm only pasting the section about judgement because that is primarily what we are discussing here, but it does mention earlier in the article that "Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell.", so it doesn't make it as cut and dry and you are making it out to be. I will put this out there that I am not educated in any of this, I'm just stating my layman interpretations based on reading the article.

ED=red
CI=orange
UR=green
my comments= blue

Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners [that doesn't sound very Christ-like...]. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). [it seems that the Jews at least had a second chance before entering into hell, so maybe we do to? It's probably a stretch...] As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10) [interesting because I don't think that people that would be burning alive for eternity would really care if a Babylonian king was coming to rule over them, that would probably be the last thing on their minds]. The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b) [this sounds a lot like the ED description where everyone is in the presence of God but the experience depends on if you were one of His flock or not, not a burning lake of fiery torment for eternity].

 

[Der Alte]

So I read the article and it is only about Ge Hinnom, no mention of Sheol. It does explain that there was a concept of eternal punishment, but I saw some support for the other two views as well (CI more so, UR not so strongly). I'm only pasting the section about judgement because that is primarily what we are discussing here, but it does mention earlier in the article that "Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell.", so it doesn't make it as cut and dry and you are making it out to be. I will put this out there that I am not educated in any of this, I'm just stating my layman interpretations based on reading the article.

ED=red
CI=orange
UR=green
my comments= blue

Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners [that doesn't sound very Christ-like...]. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). [it seems that the Jews at least had a second chance before entering into hell, so maybe we do to? It's probably a stretch...] As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10) [interesting because I don't think that people that would be burning alive for eternity would really care if a Babylonian king was coming to rule over them, that would probably be the last thing on their minds]. The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b) [this sounds a lot like the ED description where everyone is in the presence of God but the experience depends on if you were one of His flock or not, not a burning lake of fiery torment for eternity].

I did not say it was cut and dried nor that what I emphasized was the only Jewish view. I said a significant belief. You made a comment "not very Christlike." Remember that was Old Testament a few centuries before Christ appeared on earth. The word translated "hell" in Isaiah 14:9, in the article, is the Hebrew word "sheol."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

being a former traditionalist for 15 years, yes i have.

May all manner of grace, peace, and love shine upon you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I desire nothing but good things to you and your family in the Lord. To uplift and encourage you in Christ, I would like to recommend a Christian movie.

Trailer:

Full Movie available at Christian Movies Channel:

Anyways, to get down to our discussion at hand:

Please forgive me. I have been in a phase of considering alternative possible definitions lately. I have updated my list of definitions on the word “hell” to be more conservative after looking at Scripture yet again. While you may appear to disagree with me on my definitions for “Hades,” I believe we do share the same definitions involving Gehenna and Tartaroo (generally speaking). Here is my updated definitions for you to check out (that I think you may agree with me on -– in part).

Verse references in picture source above (for your convenience in looking them up quickly):
Acts 2:31, Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 12:40, 1 Peter 3:19-20, Luke 23:43, Matthew 16:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:14, Matthew 10:28, Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13, 2 Peter 2:4.

Note: I did update my previous post on these definitions of hell in my previous post to you (that included them).

>>I believe the Greek word “Gehenna” could possibly describing Hades (the place of hell)<<

I believe Gehenna is the Lake of Fire, but like many words, I believe a synonym (related word) for the Lake of Fire could possibly be the “lowest hell” based on this phrase used in Deuteronomy 32:22 and Psalms 86:13.

they are not the same place. you make that claim because you take Luke 16:19-31 literally. I dont.

And we can agree to disagree in love and respect on this point. I am not here to force anyone to believe the way I do in regards to the Bible. But if you needed to understand why I believe the way I do on Luke 16:19-31, I can go more into explaining that. If not, it’s okay, brother.

exactly. both Sheol and Hades are the same place.

I would agree that Sheol and Hades are the same place, but we may disagree on the specific details when it comes to definitions involved. But that’s okay. I am not here to force you to see what I see. Only the Lord can reveal such things.

Gehenna is a valley in Jerusalem used to burn up garbage,

I have no bone to pick that Gehenna may have been that in the past. It’s not clearly spelled out in the Bible and so I consider such a claim as being either true or not true. I only have men’s claims that such a thing is true. I trust more the Word of God.

Yes, I am aware of Joshua 15:8, and Jeremiah 7:31, but this is not conclusive evidence or anything.

I believe the location of the Lake of Fire described in the Bible will be on the New Earth as per Isaiah 66:22-24.

But we do appear to agree that Gehenna is the Lake of Fire, of which I am happy to hear.

and "tartaroo" (plural form of Tartarus) is more accurately described as everlasting chains, where the fallen angels currently are, awaiting final judgment, which will occur after the thousand year reign with Christ,

We appear to agree on this.
Awesome.

Revelation 20:11-15...
the KJV uses that one word to describe three different places... and it is for this reason why i refer to both Sheol and Hades as "the abode of the dead", "tartaroo" as "everlasting chains", and "gehenna fire" as the lake of fire... and this is also exactly why I never use the word "hell" anymore.

Well, a person can say,

”Hey man, your jacket is cool.” “Make sure you wear it this coming winter, though; The winters up in these parts can be uncomfortably cool to a point that it can chill you to the bone.”​

In other words, if one knows the differences, it is not confusing. If one is speaking to an unlearned audience of believers then it would be best to mention the Greek words for sure (to help them to understand).

it creates confusion and division,
Jesus never used the word, the Apostles never used the word, and the students of the Apostles never used the word.

I believe God moves with the times, and speaks to people in regards to their time period. Now, you may think that clarity of information is always the best, but Jesus did say that He spoke in parables because it was not given to unbelieving non-disciples to know the mysteries of the Kingdom (During the time of Christ’s ministry). But after Christ’s ministry, when the Scriptures came out in book form, and it was published (i.e., the Bible) whereby the common man could own it, and study it for himself, knowledge had increased involving God’s Word. The knowledge of His Word today has taken on a whole new dynamic (unlike before). This means that even unbelieving non-disciples could know about some of the meanings behind Christ’s parables because they are given to all men today to read in Scripture. However, my main point here is that I believe God wants us to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15. So being spoon fed the truth vs. working hard to study out the truth for oneself is a big difference in our walk with the Lord and in appreciating God’s Word. Why would I say this?

Check out these videos to see why:

The Syriac Peshitta, the first non-English translation of the New Testament, never used the English word "hell". The word "hell" wasnt used until 1382 AD, with the Wycliffe translation of the New Testament
Jesus didnt say "hell". He said "Hades":
"καὶ ἐν τῷ Ἅιδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς"
"and in Hades he lift up his eyes"

Again, I believe God speaks to each group of people according to their own time.
I wish I could say more, but I am restricted in my freedom of speech on this matter.

Hades is not Gehenna.

I 100% agree with you. Hades is not Gehenna.

Hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

I 100% agree with you. Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Praise the Lord that justice will one day be done, and God’s good ways will reign forever.

the Lake of Fire is where we find "gehenna fire",

Totally onboard with you here. I agree.

since Jesus refers back to that valley which was constantly on fire in His time, and referencing Isaiah 66:24 to describe what kind of fire will be found in the Lake of fire, and how it will not be put out until it has consumed all that has been thrown in that fire

I agree with you 100% that Isaiah 66:24 is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

the word repent means "a change of mind"
if you wanna get technical: from G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):—repentance.

So what do you make of this then?

Side Note: The words in blue brackets above is my commentary to the text.

Here is my Biblical case for repentance here at CF.

Scripture never once uses the phrase "hellfire". it says "the gehenna of fire"
Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 18:9
"την γεενναν του πυρος"
"the gehenna of fire"...

Your right. It actually says “hell fire” three times in the King James Bible, and not “hellfire.”
Again, a translation from the originals does not mean the translation is wrong or inaccurate.
Think of it as a synonym or related word. Words needed to be translated into English.
But I would agree that “Gehenna fire” or “the Gehenna of fire” would be more precise or clear.

Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

I find CI to be a definite step up from ECT. At least CI, in contrast to ECT, doesn't portray God as choosing to perpetuate sin and evil forever! But it still keeps glory and honor from God. Divine love is not powerful enough to overcome sin and evil. God can bring creation into being from...

www.christianforums.com

>>There is no indication in Scripture it just a myth and our Lord Jesus was not into telling fables. Jesus speaks 100% truth.<<
you're implying that just because i believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, you automatically assume I don't believe what Jesus says is true, and that the Bible, whether you mean just that collection of verse or the Bible itself, is a myth.
i take great offense to that, and i can guarantee you that every Conditionalist that I know that sees Luke 16:19-31 as a parable would be just as quick as i am to point out your mischaracterizations of those who disagree with you.

Well, I believe you are jumping the gun, brother. Nowhere did I say that you believe all of the words of Jesus are a myth. I am also not saying you or other Conditionalists are liberal, either. Nowhere is that said in this post you quoted, brother. You are making assumptions.

I am only referring to your interpretation on this particular story (i.e., the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man).

At Rethinkinghell.com:

Joseph Dear states this about the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man,

“It is a reasonable possibility, at least, that Jesus is using a well-known fictional story,”​

Mr. Dear, also says,

”All parables are fictional, made up stories.”​

Source:

Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus) | Rethinking Hell

The word hades, broadly speaking, refers to the place of the dead between death and the resurrection (or resurrections) that occur prior to the beginning of

rethinkinghell.com

In the Collins Dictionary in the American English section, it states for definition 3.

Myth:

”any invented story, idea, or concept”​

Source:

Myth definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Myth definition: A myth is a well-known story which was made up in the past to explain natural events or... | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples

www.collinsdictionary.com

Something fictional is not true. It’s why there is a non-fiction section and a fiction section in book stores, etcetera.
Is it possible for Christians to use fiction to give a Christian message that even lead others to be saved? Yes. I believe that. Paul says he becomes as one who is without Law to win those who are without Law, etcetera. So I believe we can be diplomatic for God’s Kingdom to win them to God’s cause. But is this is this the case with God and His words? I cannot fully say. I prefer to side with the fact that God always speaks truth and I would find it hard that He would use a fictional story because that story is technically not true. Generally, people who watch a Christian movie knows that most of them are based on fiction, but the message of God’s Word is true. Is this how the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich-man is? I don’t see it that way because this is a story directly told to us by God Himself. I don’t see Jesus giving into the popular fictional stories of His time to illustrate a greater spiritual truth.

In either case, we do not have to agree on Luke 16:19-31. It would not be enough for me to divide over.
I have always considered Conditionalists my brethren in Christ (Even though we do not agree on Luke 16:19-31).

May God’s good ways always be upon you and your loved ones.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ A Bible Highlighter.

 

[Der Alte]

@Bible Highlighter for the correct historical meaning of the Hebrew "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" and Greek "Hades" and "Gehenna" see this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

The argument that "The English word hell does not occur anywhere in the original manuscripts." is misdirected. There are no, zero, none English words whatsoever in the original manuscripts. At the Jewish Encyclopedia article link the Jewish scholars equate both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" with the English word "hell" 22 times.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter for the correct historical meaning of the Hebrew "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" and Greek "Hades" and "Gehenna" see this article from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

The argument that "The English word hell does not occur anywhere in the original manuscripts." is misdirected. There are no, zero, none English words whatsoever in the original manuscripts. At the Jewish Encyclopedia article link the Jewish scholars equate both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom" with the English word "hell" 22 times.

Your argument is similar to a person arguing against using the word dinosaur. The word “dinosaur” did not exist until 1841. It does not mean that it is wrong to use the word “dinosaur” today just because there were other names for these creatures before 1841.

Anyways, I am not here to convince you.
Only God can convince a person of a particular truth in God’s Word, and if they are open to it.