Establish The Law

[daq]

Ro 2:29, 7:6, where the letter is the written code, the law.

We disagree on your interpretation of those passages.

Then you don't understand Gal 3:10.

Yes, I do, but apparently we disagree on that passage also. It appears you imagine that anyone who loves and observes the Living Oracles of Elohim written in the Torah must be a Pharisee engaged in "the works of the law", which tells me that you do not even understand that statement to begin with. That's the problem with disconnecting such things from scripture and historical contexts so as to make up your own meanings for what such terms, idioms, and statements mean. The "works of the law" are the Pharisaic outward natural-man interpretations of the Torah. Where have you seen me telling anyone that they need to undergo physical circumcision and observe the Torah according to the Pharisee way? It's you who believes that way, for that is how you view the whole Torah, as outward and physical in nature, and knowing that you cannot fulfill such things you therefore seek to be free of carnal outward ordinances which do not even exist because they were nailed to the stake, (yes, according to Paul). The Torah is spiritual, Rom 7:14a, but we've already been over that before and you apparently do not accept Paul's words in that also.

Revealing that your paradigm is not the NT gospel.

What I have offered in this thread has been proven with scripture throughout our discussion. You have not actually refuted anything starting all the way back with the fact that the Torah contains the Living Oracles of Elohim. All you have done is ignore and deflect what is said from the scripture. Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit according to the passage: what need have I to heed your refutations of such things in favor of your own privately held beliefs? Such things only serve to reveal your own disbelief concerning the teachings of the Apostolic authors in their writings.

Your assertion without Biblical demonstration regarding my response is assertion without merit.
Feel free to Biblically demonstrate my error

Perhaps you should try taking your own medicine, and while you are at it, try using scripture in context to support your arguments so that your own words herein won't so blatantly apply to yourself more than anyone else.

 

[Clare73]

We disagree on your interpretation of those passages.

"We"?
Well "we" (NIV and I) disagree with your uninformed understanding in Ro 2:29, Ro 7:6.

Yes, I do, but apparently we disagree on that passage also. It appears you imagine that anyone who loves and observes the Living Oracles of Elohim written in the Torah must be a Pharisee engaged in "the works of the law", which tells me that you do not even understand that statement to begin with. That's the problem with disconnecting such things from scripture and historical contexts so as to make up your own meanings for what such terms, idioms, and statements mean. The "works of the law" are the Pharisaic outward natural-man interpretations of the Torah. Where have you seen me telling anyone that they need to undergo physical circumcision and observe the Torah according to the Pharisee way? It's you who believes that way, for that is how you view the whole Torah, as outward and physical in nature, and knowing that you cannot fulfill such things you therefore seek to be free of carnal outward ordinances which do not even exist because they were nailed to the stake, (yes, according to Paul). The Torah is spiritual, Rom 7:14a, but we've already been over that before and you apparently do not accept Paul's words in that also.
What I have offered in this thread has been proven with scripture throughout our discussion. You have not actually refuted anything starting all the way back with the fact that the Torah contains the Living Oracles of Elohim. All you have done is ignore and deflect what is said from the scripture. Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit according to the passage: what need have I to heed your refutations of such things in favor of your own privately held beliefs? Such things only serve to reveal your own disbelief concerning the teachings of the Apostolic authors in their writings.
Perhaps you should try taking your own medicine, and while you are at it, try using scripture in context to support your arguments so that your own words herein won't so blatantly apply to yourself more than anyone else.

I await your Biblical demonstration of my error regarding Ro 2:29, Ro 7:6, Gal 3:10.

 

[daq]

I await your Biblical demonstration of my error regarding Ro 2:29, Ro 7:6, Gal 3:10.

These things have actually already been answered but you choose not to believe the explanations already given. That doesn't mean they were not answered. I will offer one lengthy explanation, that is, the reason why we disagree on your reading of several verses you have referenced to make your point.

You said this:

The "letter" is the law, the written code, it is not Scripture in general.

Then you quoted Gal 3:10, which you yourself are the one who does not understand, proving why you have such a strong need to set aside the Living Oracles of Elohim: for just as I said in my last post, you do view the Torah in much the same way as the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Gospel accounts, and realize that you yourself cannot walk in it they way they interpreted it, (and the way modern Pharisees still interpret it today).

The law kills because it curses all those who rely on it (Gal 310), because it must be kept perfectly to avoid punishment.
No one can do that, so it condemns everyone to death--it kills.
That's life under the Old Covenant.

However I do not rely on the Torah for righteousness, which you seem to imply in the above statement, my righteousness is by faith in the Meshiah and his Testimony in the Gospel accounts, which interprets the Torah for me in the way it is supposed to be rightfully understood. It's about interpretation, not setting aside the Living Oracles of Elohim, which are spiritual, just as Paul says in Rom 7:14a. Anyone who reads with comprehension should be able to see this with an in depth study of Matthew 5, where the Master is not overturning anything in the Torah, but rather, ("You have heard that it has been said by those of old time"), he is overturning incorrect understandings and interpretations of the Torah. Those incorrect interpretations of the Torah were all based on the outward and the physical, the ways and customs of the Pharisees, which Paul calls "the works of the law". One may plainly see that the Master is internalizing the Torah in Matthew 5, for example, even if a man looks upon a woman with lust he has already committed adultery in his heart, and thus, he is internalizing the Torah, not overturning it or setting it aside.

Then you said this:

Under the New Covenant we are made righteous by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, we are saved from God's justice on our sin ,and Jesus' righteousness is reckoned, accounted, imputed to us.

The Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit and Life, (for his words are Spirit and Life, John 6:63). And for what reason did they kill him? It was because of his Testimony: and therefore his Testimony is tantamount to his blood because he paid for that Testimony with his life and blood. Therefore his Testimony is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which was even foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27). The Spirit which Paul often speaks about is therefore the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts because his Testimony is Spirit and Life: and anyone who ignores that Testimony or treats it lightly does despite to the Spirit of Grace because that Testimony is the very Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Therefore, if your argument does not comply with the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, then your understanding of the other apostolic writers whose words you use to argue your paradigm is incorrect.

And now we come to the letter and your statement about the letter quoted above herein.
And you said this in the same post:

2 Co 3:6 has nothing to do with seeing with the physical eyes vs. supernal and inward, perception and understanding, seeing and hearing.

2 Corinthians 3:6 ASV
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That says nothing about the letter being the Torah.

And now more recently, above, you have quoted Romans 7:6 to say the same thing again.
I do not necessarily read the Greek text the same way your preferred translator(s) might read it.

Romans 7:6 N/A-W/H
6 νυνι δε κατηργηθημεν απο του νομου αποθανοντες εν ω κατειχομεθα ωστε δουλευειν [ημας] εν καινοτητι πνευματος και ου παλαιοτητι γραμματος

6 But now we are rendered useless [idle] by the Torah, having died in that wherein we were held, so that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This statement also does not say that the Torah is the letter, and neither does Paul say that we no longer serve, but that rather than serving according to the oldness of the letter, (the old way of understanding, interpretation), we should serve in newness of the Spirit: and that Spirit is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which expounds the correct way to understand the Torah and become pleasing to the Father, (Romans 8:4-13 fully expounds).

As for Romans 2:29 I have no problem with what is written there: but just so you know, those things are also taught in the Torah, in fact, lets look at the preceding verse and at least allow Paul some context.

Romans 2:28-29 ASV
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Just more evidence that I believe the way Paul does and you do not understand. Circumcision is not outward, in the flesh, according to the flesh, and that is what I also uphold and believe: for outward circumcision is the outward and physical way of the Pharisaic interpretation of the commandments in the Torah. That is the way of the letter, the understanding of the physical and outward, the way of the Pharisees and the natural mind of the natural man, and circumcision is the seal which places a convert under the oath to walk in all the teachings of the Pharisees. It is the entry into the Pharisaic interpretations and way of understanding the Torah. Physical outward circumcision is essentially the first work of the "works of the law" which Paul indeed rails against so often. The reason why is because it blinds the convert into believing he is "keeping the Torah" while walking according to the natural mind of the natural man.

Does the Torah teach circumcision of the heart?

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Please hear and take heed therefore how you hear: (again, Luke 8:18)

Deuteronomy 30:10-19 KJV
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mosheh warns the hearer and the reader that he has set before us life and good, and death and evil; life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life. And this pertains to how your hear and see and perceive and understand what you hear and see and read in the Torah. In other words it depends on your own understanding and interpretation of the Word of the Father in the Torah which contains His Living Oracles.

 

[Clare73]

These things have actually already been answered but you choose not to believe the explanations already given. That doesn't mean they were not answered. I will offer one lengthy explanation, that is, the reason why we disagree on your reading of several verses you have referenced to make your point.
You said this:
The "letter" is the law, the written code, it is not Scripture in general.

See Ro 2:29, 7:6.

Then you quoted Gal 3:10,

Which explains why the letter (written code, law) kills (2 Co 3:6).

which you yourself are the one who does not understand, proving why you have such a strong need to set aside the Living Oracles of Elohim: for just as I said in my last post, you do view the Torah in much the same way as the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Gospel accounts, and realize that you yourself cannot walk in it they way they interpreted it, (and the way modern Pharisees still interpret it today).
However I do not rely on the Torah for righteousness, which you seem to imply in the above statement, my righteousness is by faith in the Meshiah and his Testimony in the Gospel accounts, which interprets the Torah for me in the way it is supposed to be rightfully understood. It's about interpretation, not setting aside the Living Oracles of Elohim, which are spiritual, just as Paul says in Rom 7:14a. Anyone who reads with comprehension should be able to see this with an in depth study of Matthew 5, where the Master is not overturning anything in the Torah, but rather, ("You have heard that it has been said by those of old time"), he is overturning incorrect understandings and interpretations of the Torah. Those incorrect interpretations of the Torah were all based on the outward and the physical, the ways and customs of the Pharisees, which Paul calls "the works of the law". One may plainly see that the Master is internalizing the Torah in Matthew 5, for example, even if a man looks upon a woman with lust he has already committed adultery in his heart, and thus, he is internalizing the Torah, not overturning it or setting it aside.

Then you said this:
"Under the New Covenant we are made righteous by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, we are saved from God's justice on our sin ,and Jesus' righteousness is reckoned, accounted, imputed to us."

The Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit and Life, (for his words are Spirit and Life, John 6:63). And for what reason did they kill him? It was because of his Testimony: and therefore

his Testimony is tantamount to his blood because he paid for that Testimony with his life and blood. Therefore his Testimony is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which was even foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27). The Spirit which Paul often speaks about is therefore the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts because his Testimony is Spirit and Life: and anyone who ignores that Testimony or treats it lightly does despite to the Spirit of Grace because that Testimony is the very Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Therefore, if your argument does not comply with the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, then your understanding of the other apostolic writers whose words you use to argue your paradigm is incorrect.

Ah, ye old boot-strapping hermeneutic; i.e.,

testimony = blood = Messiah = Spirit, therefore, Spirit = Messiah = gospel = all NT writings of the law

And the Biblical demonstration of the things I said above not being in agreement with the testimony of the NT?

And now we come to the letter and your statement about the letter quoted above herein.
And you said this in the same post:
"2 Co 3:6 has nothing to do with seeing with the physical eyes vs. supernal and inward, perception and understanding, seeing and hearing."

2 Corinthians 3:6 ASV
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
That says nothing about the letter being the Torah.

What in the NT kills? The curse of the law (Gal 3:10).

See Ro 2:29, 7:6.

Ro 7:6 But now we are rendered useless [idle] by the Torah, having died in that wherein we were held, so that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Torah is the letter, which is the law, and which the rest of the NT verifies in the same usage.

We now serve God in the new way, in the Spirit, for we are no longer under the old way, the law, we have been discharged/freed from the law (Torah).
See Ro 7:4 (died to the curse of the law), Gal 3:25 (not under supervision of the law to lead us to Christ, v.24).

Romans 7:6 N/A-W/H
6 νυνι δε κατηργηθημεν απο του νομου αποθανοντες εν ω κατειχομεθα ωστε δουλευειν [ημας] εν καινοτητι πνευματος και ου παλαιοτητι γραμματος
6 But now we are rendered useless [idle] by the Torah, having died in that wherein we were held, so that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Torah is again the letter in the above.

This statement also does not say that the Torah is the letter, and neither does Paul say that we no longer serve, but that rather than serving according to the oldness of the letter, (the old way of understanding, interpretation), we should serve in newness of the Spirit: and that Spirit is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts,

Ah, and now the application of ye old boot-strapping heremeneutic where the Spirit = all NT writings of the law.

which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which expounds the correct way to understand the Torah and become pleasing to the Father, (Romans 8:4-13 fully expounds).

The correct way to understand the Torah is given in Ro 13:8-10; i.e., the law is summed up in one rule: love of God and neighbor as self, which meaning the Holy Spirit writes on the heart (Heb 8:10), no man nor book being necessary for him to understand it. Jesus likewise gives the same rule in Mt 22:37-39.

As for Romans 2:29 I have no problem with what is writte there:

Both of them, Ro 2:29, 7:6, referring to the law as the letter, written code (NIV).

 

[daq]

the law is summed up in one rule: love of God and neighbor as self, which meaning the Holy Spirit writes on the heart (Heb 8:10), no man nor book being necessary for him to understand it. Jesus likewise gives the same rule in Mt 22:37-39.

That is not possible according to your own dogma because the two great commandments you reference are "the letter" according to your own dogma. I guess those two commandments must have killed you? Are you not even aware that the Master is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 in Matthew 22:37-39?

 

[Clare73]

That is not possible according to your own dogma because the two great commandments you reference are "the letter" according to your own dogma. I guess those two commandments must have killed you?

So Jesus (Mt 22:37-39) as well as Paul (Ro 13:8-10) got it wrong, did they?

You really do not understand the NT.

The two great commandments absolutely kill all those who do not fulfill them (Ro 2:25), including me.
Read the curse of the law. Read the NT: The wages of sin is death. (Ro 6:23)

However, I am under the blood of Christ, so they can't kill me, but they, or conscience, kill everyone who is not under the blood of Christ (Ro 2:4, 15-16).

You left a lot on the table both unaddressed and not demonstrated.

 

[daq]

You left a lot on the table both unaddressed and not demonstrated.

It isn't my thread and I've now realized once again that this is going nowhere.

 

[HIM]

So Jesus (Mt 22:37-39) as well as Paul (Ro 13:8-10) got it wrong, did they?

You really do not understand the NT.

The two great commandments absolutely kill all those who do not fulfill them (Ro 2:25), including me.
Read the curse of the law. Read the NT: The wages of sin is death. (Ro 6:23)

However, I am under the blood of Christ, so they can't kill me, but they, or conscience, kill everyone who is not under the blood of Christ (Ro 2:4, 15-16).

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

[Studyman]

These things have actually already been answered but you choose not to believe the explanations already given. That doesn't mean they were not answered. I will offer one lengthy explanation, that is, the reason why we disagree on your reading of several verses you have referenced to make your point.

You said this:



Then you quoted Gal 3:10, which you yourself are the one who does not understand, proving why you have such a strong need to set aside the Living Oracles of Elohim: for just as I said in my last post, you do view the Torah in much the same way as the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Gospel accounts, and realize that you yourself cannot walk in it they way they interpreted it, (and the way modern Pharisees still interpret it today).



However I do not rely on the Torah for righteousness, which you seem to imply in the above statement, my righteousness is by faith in the Meshiah and his Testimony in the Gospel accounts, which interprets the Torah for me in the way it is supposed to be rightfully understood. It's about interpretation, not setting aside the Living Oracles of Elohim, which are spiritual, just as Paul says in Rom 7:14a. Anyone who reads with comprehension should be able to see this with an in depth study of Matthew 5, where the Master is not overturning anything in the Torah, but rather, ("You have heard that it has been said by those of old time"), he is overturning incorrect understandings and interpretations of the Torah. Those incorrect interpretations of the Torah were all based on the outward and the physical, the ways and customs of the Pharisees, which Paul calls "the works of the law". One may plainly see that the Master is internalizing the Torah in Matthew 5, for example, even if a man looks upon a woman with lust he has already committed adultery in his heart, and thus, he is internalizing the Torah, not overturning it or setting it aside.

It is written in the Testimony; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This is an excellent representation of that instruction, in my view. Not only is the Christ eternalizing the Torah, when HE says "even if a man looks upon a woman with lust he has already committed adultery in his heart", the Prophets actually teach the very same word for word.

Prov. 6: 24 To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman. 25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.

Proving again, as you have said, that the Messiah didn't come to do His own will or bring new laws by abandoning or abolishing the Torah and the Prophets. But was only teaching what they had always taught, to those who had an ear to hear. The mainstream preachers of His time, the Pharisees, had corrupted the teaching of the Torah. This Christ is pointing this out in Matt. 5.

The Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit and Life, (for his words are Spirit and Life, John 6:63). And for what reason did they kill him? It was because of his Testimony: and therefore his Testimony is tantamount to his blood because he paid for that Testimony with his life and blood. Therefore his Testimony is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which was even foretold in the Prophet Ezekiel, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27). The Spirit which Paul often speaks about is therefore the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts because his Testimony is Spirit and Life: and anyone who ignores that Testimony or treats it lightly does despite to the Spirit of Grace because that Testimony is the very Spirit of Grace, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). Therefore, if your argument does not comply with the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, then your understanding of the other apostolic writers whose words you use to argue your paradigm is incorrect.

And now we come to the letter and your statement about the letter quoted above herein.
And you said this in the same post:



2 Corinthians 3:6 ASV
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That says nothing about the letter being the Torah.

And now more recently, above, you have quoted Romans 7:6 to say the same thing again.
I do not necessarily read the Greek text the same way your preferred translator(s) might read it.

Romans 7:6 N/A-W/H
6 νυνι δε κατηργηθημεν απο του νομου αποθανοντες εν ω κατειχομεθα ωστε δουλευειν [ημας] εν καινοτητι πνευματος και ου παλαιοτητι γραμματος

6 But now we are rendered useless [idle] by the Torah, having died in that wherein we were held, so that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This statement also does not say that the Torah is the letter, and neither does Paul say that we no longer serve, but that rather than serving according to the oldness of the letter, (the old way of understanding, interpretation), we should serve in newness of the Spirit: and that Spirit is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which expounds the correct way to understand the Torah and become pleasing to the Father, (Romans 8:4-13 fully expounds).

Another conclusion I have also come to. Paul says as much in Romans 6.

15 What then? shall we sin, (Transgress God's commandments as defined in the Torah?) because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

This man was renewed in the spirit of His Mind, and put on the New Man.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

"that we should serve in newness of the Spirit"

Another great explanation of the "reason for the hope that is in you".

As for Romans 2:29 I have no problem with what is written there: but just so you know, those things are also taught in the Torah, in fact, lets look at the preceding verse and at least allow Paul some context.

Romans 2:28-29 ASV
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Just more evidence that I believe the way Paul does and you do not understand. Circumcision is not outward, in the flesh, according to the flesh, and that is what I also uphold and believe: for outward circumcision is the outward and physical way of the Pharisaic interpretation of the commandments in the Torah. That is the way of the letter, the understanding of the physical and outward, the way of the Pharisees and the natural mind of the natural man, and circumcision is the seal which places a convert under the oath to walk in all the teachings of the Pharisees. It is the entry into the Pharisaic interpretations and way of understanding the Torah. Physical outward circumcision is essentially the first work of the "works of the law" which Paul indeed rails against so often. The reason why is because it blinds the convert into believing he is "keeping the Torah" while walking according to the natural mind of the natural man.

Does the Torah teach circumcision of the heart?

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Please hear and take heed therefore how you hear: (again, Luke 8:18)

Deuteronomy 30:10-19 KJV
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mosheh warns the hearer and the reader that he has set before us life and good, and death and evil; life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life. And this pertains to how your hear and see and perceive and understand what you hear and see and read in the Torah. In other words it depends on your own understanding and interpretation of the Word of the Father in the Torah which contains His Living Oracles.

Amen, The God and Father of the Lord's Christ is capable of revealing His Truth to those who seek Him through His Oracles. It is a great mistake in my view, to adopt the doctrines and philosophies of this world's religions, given we have His Oracles in our own home. In our own mind. Especially given all the warnings given us by the Messiah and the Prophets, and His Disciples regarding men who "profess to know God". It is a promise from the Messiah Himself, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

In other words, "Choose Life".

Great post Daq. And also a Great explanation of the reason for the hope that is within me as well.

 

[Clare73]

It isn't my thread and I've now realized once again that this is going nowhere.

I would expect as much when your assertions are not Biblically demonstrated, and counter-arguments to your assertions are not addressed.

 

[daq]

I would expect as much when your assertions are not Biblically demonstrated, and counter-arguments to your assertions are not addressed.

1) You've essentially confessed to a belief in a seemingly generic God whose Word kills and isn't necessary.
2) You've entirely lost sight of the OP, its title, and the scripture passage quoted therein. How is it that you "establish the law" by preaching, teaching, and believing that the Living Oracles and Word of the Father are not needed?
3) Because of points 1 & 2 above I see no need to continue in this discussion.

 

[HIM]

Which explains why the letter (written code, law) kills (2 Co 3:6).

2 Corinthians 3:6 ASV
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That says nothing about the letter being the Torah.

Yes it does. But we are not speaking of the content written and engraved in tables of stone and ink on parchment howbeit some letter to relay what God wants, His teachings, His Torah, the Law. We are speaking of how it was delivered. It's administration through the tables of stone and parchment. The ministry of His teachings has changed from that to us being living letters, epistles. As God has said, I will put my Laws into our minds and into our hearts will I write them. Therefore, His Word is not far from us, it is in our hearts and mouths and in our hands to do it. (Deut 30:10-14 Septuagint) That is the faith in which we preach. We have of His Spirit. The Ministry is TO BE no longer of the tables of stone, the Decalogue and ink on parchment, the Pentateuch but through us and what we become in Christ through His Spirit. He in us, us in Him that the world believe. He doeth the work. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Behold we have become new and are of God. For where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. So we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Cor 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Cor 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor 3:18 So we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[HIM]

And now more recently, above, you have quoted Romans 7:6 to say the same thing again.
I do not necessarily read the Greek text the same way your preferred translator(s) might read it.

Romans 7:6 N/A-W/H
6 νυνι δε κατηργηθημεν απο του νομου αποθανοντες εν ω κατειχομεθα ωστε δουλευειν [ημας] εν καινοτητι πνευματος και ου παλαιοτητι γραμματος

6 But now we are rendered useless [idle] by the Torah, having died in that wherein we were held, so that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

This statement also does not say that the Torah is the letter, and neither does Paul say that we no longer serve, but that rather than serving according to the oldness of the letter, (the old way of understanding, interpretation), we should serve in newness of the Spirit: and that Spirit is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts, which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant which expounds the correct way to understand the Torah and become pleasing to the Father, (Romans 8:4-13 fully expounds).

It says we have been rendered usless, idle FROM the Torah not by. The Greek word Apo denotes separation or origin from which the subject has been separated from. Not cause, which the word "by" implies.

Chapter seven must be understood in context to Six and eight.

 

[daq]

Yes it does. But we are not speaking of the content written and engraved in tables of stone and ink on parchment howbeit some letter to relay what God wants, His teachings, His Torah, the Law. We are speaking of how it was delivered. It's administration through the tables of stone and parchment. The ministry of His teachings has changed from that to us being living letters, epistles. As God has said, I will put my Laws into our minds and into our hearts will I write them. Therefore, His Word is not far from us, it is in our hearts and mouths and in our hands to do it. (Deut 30:10-14 Septuagint) That is the faith in which we preach. We have of His Spirit. The Ministry is TO BE no longer of the tables of stone, the Decalogue and ink on parchment, the Pentateuch but through us and what we become in Christ through His Spirit. He in us, us in Him that the world believe. He doeth the work. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Behold we have become new and are of God. For where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. So we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Cor 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Cor 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor 3:18 So we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

That's a change and renewal of the heart by way of the Testimony of the Meshiah which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant.

Ezekiel 11:17-21 KJV
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries [eretz] where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land [adamah] of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 KJV
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, [eretz] and will bring you into your own land [adamah].
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, [John 4:14, Eph 5:26] and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Moreover what glory was it that was to be done away in 2 Cor 3:7 which you quoted? It was the skin of Mosheh's face that shone with glory and needed to be veiled, that is, the flesh, (Exodus 34:28-35), not the Torah. Moreover the whole point in Paul's discourse here is for the Torah to be understood, not set aside, and the veil that needs to be removed is the veil over the heart, mind, and eyes of the one who reads the Torah and does not understand because he or she is spiritually blind, and Paul says that veil is only removed in Meshiah, which surely means that the Testimony of the Meshiah is what removes the veil because it expounds everything we need to know so as to understand the Torah in the manner in which it was originally meant to be understood.

And as Paul says, and expounds in Romans 8:4-8, those who are in (walking according to) the flesh cannot please Elohim because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim: for it is not subject to the Torah of Elohim, and neither indeed can be. Testimony is spirit, whether for the good or whether for the evil, and the Testimony of the Meshiah is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant as foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (and likewise in the Torah). Those who are truly in Meshiah or "in Christ" are those walking in his Testimony, and that takes logos: the true understanding which resides within the rhema-sayings written with the letter but which cannot be seen with the physical eyes of man. You can see the letter, you can read the parables, proverbs, idioms, and sayings of the Meshiah, but you cannot physically see the Logos and Wisdom and Mind of Elohim.

Understanding the wisdom requires the knowledge of Elohim:

Romans 11:33-34 ASV
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

1 Corinthians 1:21-24 ASV
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 ASV
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ASV
6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:
9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

One does not acquire the mind of Meshiah by a simple confession of faith at the beginning of his or her new walk as a babe in Meshiah: for the mind of Meshiah only comes by prayerful and open-heart deep study and seeking IN the Testimony of the Meshiah provided for us in the Gospel accounts, and that Testimony is expounding the Spirit of the Father within the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the Hebrew TaNaK scriptures.

 

[daq]

It says we have been rendered usless, idle FROM the Torah not by. The Greek word Apo denotes separation or origin from which the subject has been separated from. Not cause, which the word "by" implies.

We disagree: that's like saying υπο always means under, (i.e. "the law"), or that εκ always mean from/out, (see Gal 3:9-10 where it means by way of in the sense of justification).

Once you get the first clause correct, from becomes a blatantly incorrect reading here: it isn't what Paul means, and that is clear from a correct understanding of the surround context. Here is a literal translation which serves to highlight the inconsistency.

Romans 7:6 SLT (Smith's Literal Translation)
6 And now we were left inactive from the law, having died in what we were held; so that we serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We were not "left inactive from the law", we were made inactive by way of the Torah, because of the Torah, which if one understands correctly: it is the Torah which explains and defines sin, condemns sin, and therefore places all men under judgment while exalting the holy and perfect Creator above all the men of His creation.

The Torah is good and righteous and holy because it puts the evil within us to death so that we may live unto Elohim. I cannot speak for you or anyone else, but I know that, as for myself, I have been rendered entirely idle by the Torah, not from the Torah, which is nothing more than an antinomian bias on the part English translators.

Chapter seven must be understood in context to Six and eight.

A nonsensical response.
I have an entire thread on that very topic and no doubt you were there:

Commencement of the Renewal of the Covenant

Exodus 23:20-23 OG LXX [20] και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι [21] προσεχε σεαυτω και εισακουε αυτου και μη απειθει αυτω ου γαρ μη υποστειληται σε το γαρ ονομα μου εστιν επ αυτω [22a] εαν ακοη ακουσητε της...

www.christianforums.com

 

[HIM]

We disagree: that's like saying υπο always means under, (i.e. "the law"), or that εκ always mean from/out, (see Gal 3:9-10 where it means by way of in the sense of justification).

It says we have been rendered usless, idle FROM the Torah not by. The Greek word Apo denotes separation or origin from which the subject has been separated from. Not cause, which the word "by" implies. Couple that with the fact that Nomos (Law) in Romans 7:6 is in the Genitive case solidifies the point.

And no matter what these are facts.

A nonsensical response.
I have an entire thread on that very topic and no doubt you were there:

Commencement of the Renewal of the Covenant

Exodus 23:20-23 OG LXX [20] και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι [21] προσεχε σεαυτω και εισακουε αυτου και μη απειθει αυτω ου γαρ μη υποστειληται σε το γαρ ονομα μου εστιν επ αυτω [22a] εαν ακοη ακουσητε της...

www.christianforums.com

A nonsensical response. Which is addressed in the context to Romans itself.

 

[HIM]

That's a change and renewal of the heart by way of the Testimony of the Meshiah which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant.

Ezekiel 11:17-21 KJV
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries [eretz] where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land [adamah] of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 KJV
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, [eretz] and will bring you into your own land [adamah].
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, [John 4:14, Eph 5:26] and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Moreover what glory was it that was to be done away in 2 Cor 3:7 which you quoted? It was the skin of Mosheh's face that shone with glory and needed to be veiled, that is, the flesh, (Exodus 34:28-35), not the Torah. Moreover the whole point in Paul's discourse here is for the Torah to be understood, not set aside, and the veil that needs to be removed is the veil over the heart, mind, and eyes of the one who reads the Torah and does not understand because he or she is spiritually blind, and Paul says that veil is only removed in Meshiah, which surely means that the Testimony of the Meshiah is what removes the veil because it expounds everything we need to know so as to understand the Torah in the manner in which it was originally meant to be understood.

And as Paul says, and expounds in Romans 8:4-8, those who are in (walking according to) the flesh cannot please Elohim because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim: for it is not subject to the Torah of Elohim, and neither indeed can be. Testimony is spirit, whether for the good or whether for the evil, and the Testimony of the Meshiah is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant as foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (and likewise in the Torah). Those who are truly in Meshiah or "in Christ" are those walking in his Testimony, and that takes logos: the true understanding which resides within the rhema-sayings written with the letter but which cannot be seen with the physical eyes of man. You can see the letter, you can read the parables, proverbs, idioms, and sayings of the Meshiah, but you cannot physically see the Logos and Wisdom and Mind of Elohim.

Understanding the wisdom requires the knowledge of Elohim:

Romans 11:33-34 ASV
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

1 Corinthians 1:21-24 ASV
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 ASV
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ASV
6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:
8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:
9 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.
10 But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.
12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

One does not acquire the mind of Meshiah by a simple confession of faith at the beginning of his or her new walk as a babe in Meshiah: for the mind of Meshiah only comes by prayerful and open-heart deep study and seeking IN the Testimony of the Meshiah provided for us in the Gospel accounts, and that Testimony is expounding the Spirit of the Father within the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the Hebrew TaNaK scriptures.

Why do you state the Covenant as renewed rather than new?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


From the BDAG, bold emphasis mine.


καινός, ή, όν (Aeschyl., Hdt.+; ins, pap, LXX, TestSol; TestAbr A 7 p. 84, 27 [Stone p. 16]; Test12Patr; JosAs 14:13 and 15; Philo, Joseph., Just., Mel.) comp. καινότερος; prim. sense ‘new’.
pert. to being in existence for a relatively short time, new, unused (X., Hell. 3, 4, 28; PGM 36, 265; Judg 15:13; 2 Km 6:3; 4 Km 2:20) ἀσκοί wineskins (Josh 9:13) Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:38. ἱμάτιον (Artem. 2, 3 p. 86, 3; 3 Km 11:29f) vs. 36. μνημεῖον Mt 27:60; J 19:41 (w. ἐν ᾧ οὐδέπω οὐδεὶς ἦν τεθειμένος added). τὸ κ. the new piece=πλήρωμα Mk 2:21; Lk 5:36. καινὰ καὶ παλαιά Mt 13:52 (perh. with ref. to coins; cp. PGrenf II, 74, 9; 77, 7f).

pert. to being not previously present, unknown, strange, remarkable, also w. the connotation of the marvelous or unheard-of (Pla., Apol. 24c; X., Mem. 1, 1, 1 ἕτερα καὶ καινὰ δαιμόνια; Just., A I, 15, 9; Orig., C. Cels. 1 58, 15) διδαχή Mk 1:27; Ac 17:19. ἐντολή (κ. νόμος: Menand., fgm. 238, 3 Kö.; Diod. S. 13, 34, 6) J 13:34; 1J 2:7f (Polyaenus 2, 1, 13 οὐ καινοὺς νόμους … ἀλλὰ τ. παλαιούς); 2J 5. ὄνομα (Is 62:2; 65:15) Rv 2:17 (here w. ὃ οὐδεὶς οἶδεν εἰ μὴ ὁ λαμβάνων, perh. as antidote to adversarial magic); 3:12. ᾠδή 5:9 (Ps 143:9; cp. Is 42:10; Ps 32:3; 39:4.—Philo, Vi. Cont. 80 ὕμνος κ. [opp. ἀρχαῖος]); 14:3. γλῶσσαι Mk 16:17. κ. γένος of Christians Dg 1. θεώρημα AcPl Ox 6, 1f (διήγημα Aa I, 241, 11). θέαμα GJs 19:2f (Mel., P. 19, 127). Christ as ὁ κ. ἄνθρωπος the new kind of human being IEph 20:1. ἢ λέγειν τι ἢ ἀκούειν τι καινότερον either to hear or to say someth. quite new (=‘the latest thing’) Ac 17:21 (s. Kühner-G. II 306f; Norden, Agn. Th. 333ff [but s. HAlmqvist, Plutarch u. d. NT ’46, 79f, w. ref. to Plut.]; B-D-F §244, 2; Rdm. 70 and s. Demosth. 4, 10 ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι … λέγεταί τι καινόν; γένοιτ᾿ ἄν τι καινότερον … ; also Theophr., Char. 8, 2; BGU 821, 6 [II A.D.] ὅταν ᾖ τι καινότερον, εὐθέως σοι δηλώσω; Simplicius, Coroll. De Tempore, in Aristot., Phys. p. 788, 36ff καινοτέραν ἐβάδισεν ὁδόν=he traveled a rather new road [of interpretation]; Jos., Ant. 14, 104; Iren. 1, 18, 1 [Harv. I 169, 3]).
pert. to that which is recent in contrast to someth. old, new

w. no criticism of the old implied (Herodas 4, 57 καινὴ Ἀθηναίη; Lucian, M. Peregr. 12 κ. Σωκράτης): of the Son of God or Logos, who is old and new at the same time Hs 9, 12, 1ff; Dg 11:4.

in the sense that what is old has become obsolete, and should be replaced by what is new. In such a case the new is, as a rule, superior in kind to the old ἡ κ. διαθήκη the new covenant or declaration (Jer 38:31; Just., D. 11, 4 al.; Did., Gen. 46, 4; 156, 5) Mt 26:28 v.l.; Mk 14:24 v.l.; Lk 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6; Hb 8:8 (Jer 38:31), 13; 9:15. κ. νόμος (Timocles Com. [IV B.C.] fgm. 32, 4 κατὰ τὸν νόμον τ. καινόν; Just., D. 12, 3; Mel., P. 7, 46) B 2:6. λαὸς κ. 5:7; 7:5; cp. 15:7.—Esp. in eschatol. usage κ. οὐρανοί, κ. γῆ (Is 65:17; 66:22) 2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1; Ἰερουσαλὴμ καινή vs. 2; 3:12. καινὰ πάντα ποιεῖν 21:5. καινὸν πίνειν τὸ γένημα τῆς ἀμπέλου Mt 26:29; Mk 14:25.—Of the renewing of a pers. who has been converted κ. ἄνθρωπος Eph 4:24; Dg 2:1. κ. κτίσις a new creature 2 Cor 5:17a; cp. 17b (Ps.-Pla., Axioch. 11 p. 370e ἐκ τῆς ἀσθενείας ἐμαυτὸν συνείλεγμαι καὶ γέγονα καινός=out of weakness I have brought myself together and become new; cp. Orig., C. Cels. 6, 67, 33); Gal 6:15; cp. B 16:8. All the Christians together appear as κ. ἄνθρωπος Eph 2:15.—RHarrisville, The Concept of Newness in the NT, ’60; GSchneider, Καινὴ Κτίσις (Paul and background), diss. Trier, ’59, Neuschöpfung oder Wiederkehr? ’61. Qumran: DSwanson, A Covenant Just Like Jacob’s, The Covenant of 11QT 29 and Jeremiah’s New Covenant: New Qumran Texts and Studies, ed. GBrooke/FMartínez ’94, 273–86.—B. 957. Schmidt, Syn. II 94–123. DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW. S. νεό.

 

[daq]

Why do you state the Covenant as renewed rather than new?

Because the Testimony of the Master compels me to speak the truth if I am going to speak of it at all. Why do you treat the N/T writings as a lawyer so heavily bound to the letter which both you and Clare73 have confess kills?

 

[Gary K]

Because the Testimony of the Master compels me to speak the truth if I am going to speak of it at all. Why do you treat the N/T writings as a lawyer so heavily bound to the letter which both you and Clare73 have confess kills?

HIM is well capable of answering for himself, but your answer to HIM above really caught my attention.

Why would you even begin to lump HIM and Clare73 together? Their beliefs on the Sabbath differ greatly.

 

[daq]

HIM is well capable of answering for himself, but your answer to HIM above really caught my attention.

Why would you even begin to lump HIM and Clare73 together? Their beliefs on the Sabbath differ greatly.

Read Reply #152. The discussion did not pertain to the Shabbat. Clare73 had referenced 2 Cor 3:6, claiming that it says that the letter is the law itself, and I quoted the passage and responded that it does not say what she claimed it says. HIM then quoted my response to her, and said, "Yes it does", in support of Clare73's errant statement. Therefore HIM and Clare73 agree that 2 Cor 3:6 teaches that the whole Torah is the letter, while, again, Stephen says the Torah contains Living Oracles. The Living Oracles of Elohim are not the letter but the Logos within the rhema sayings of the Torah written with the letter. This distinction is absolutely critical and necessary to understand so that one does not end up in the ditch for tossing out the whole Torah full of the Living Oracles of Elohim.