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Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Erik Nelson

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you are equating the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium with the 2nd Final Resurrection after the Millennium and after the ensuing period of God & Magog ?
 
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DavidPT

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Still, all the passages you are supplying here, they only fit this resurrection----the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life

All John 5:28–29 tells us is, that there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust. It doesn't indicate in that passage that they happen at the same time, or even on the same day, for that matter. It wouldn't matter if the resurrection of the unjust happened a million years later after the resurrection of the just. It would still fulfill what Jesus said---that the hour has come for the unjust to also hear His voice and rise from the dead.
 
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DavidPT

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you are equating the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium with the 2nd Final Resurrection after the Millennium and after the ensuing period of God & Magog ?



And if that is the case, that would be some pretty strange theology. Obviously the resurrection of the just in John 5:29 is a physical resurrection and is obviously meaning the first resurrection per Revelation 20. And if the first resurrection per Revelation 20 happens at the beginning of the thousand years, we then know we are not in the millennium yet, because if we were, John 5:29 and the physical resurrection of the just would have already been fulfilled, yet it hasn't. No one would even argue it has.
 
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Erik Nelson

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thought the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium was a "special privilege" for Christian martyrs up to that time? Everyone else, including saints during the Millennium, await the "second final main resurrection" after the Millennium and after the era of Gog & Magog ??
 
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DavidPT

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Look at it like this then.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The 2nd death involves the LOF, right? Would not any saved person, even OT saints from the past, on them as well, the second death would have no power either? Also notice that it says of those who have part in the first resurrection--- Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would not OT saints from the past be blessed and holy, too, when they rise from the dead and receive literal everlasting life?

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The part about the first resurrection, that of course is not referring to the rest of the dead. Notice what is not said about the rest of the dead. Nowhere in the text does it indicate any of them are blessed and holy as well, nor that any of them, that the 2nd death has no power over them. Obviously the 2nd death does have power over them, otherwise they would have risen in the first resurrection, where it is ONLY those that have part in that resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over them.

What I myself conclude then-----

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life---is meaning the first resurrection. That includes the resurrection of all of the saved since the beginning of time.

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation---is meaning when the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished. That includes the resurrection of all of the lost since the beginning of time.

This kills two birds with one stone, so to speak. It debunks both Amil and Pretrib.
 
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Dave L

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“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28–29)
 
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Dave L

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you are equating the 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium with the 2nd Final Resurrection after the Millennium and after the ensuing period of God & Magog ?
Yes. But the resurrection of the righteous begins with the New Birth and finishes with the resurrection of the body.
Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Torrey's Topical Textbook

Ephesians 2:1,5
And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Torrey's Topical Textbook

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1
If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
 
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Dave L

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So your "millennium" is only a day long?
 
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DavidPT

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I don't see the problem? Isn't that same Greek word for hour used in the following verse as well? Do you also take that hour to only involve a single hour, thus all of that is fulfilled the same day, too?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 
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Dave L

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“Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,” (John 11:24–25)
 
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DavidPT

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So your "millennium" is only a day long?


And why not?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
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DavidPT

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What are the chances her brother will rise unto the resurrection of damnation? I would say zero. Therefore, you have only proved that the resurrection unto life happens at the last day, and not also the resurrection unto damnation. I don't even dispute the resurrection unto life happens at the last day.
 
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claninja

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Eternal punishment occurs when Christ comes, no?

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:7-10&version=ESV
 
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Dave L

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It all happens, both resurrections in the same hour.

“Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,” (John 11:24–25)

Also consider Christ defeats death (the resurrection) when he delivers the kingdom up to the Father. This happens at the end of the world. So according to your theory, Satan can only attack resurrected sinners when loosed. The saints are all in the new heavens and earth.
 
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Dave L

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And why not?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So what is your millennium? One day or one thousand years or neither? I say it is neither. Your problems arise when you make the 1000 the kingdom. When it represents the binding of Satan. Satan is loosed when it ends.....
 
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Dave L

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Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection. This takes place on the last day (multiple scriptures already cited). So Satan must cram everything he does, Gog, Magog, Armageddon, etc., after the 1000 years into a few hours to make your theory work. Plus there aren't any saints left on earth for him to attack. They are all with Jesus in the new heavens and earth.
 
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DavidPT

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How do we square that with this then?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

on such the second death hath no power. The 2nd death involves the LOF. Who does the text indicate the 2nd death has no power over? These---he that hath part in the first resurrection----or these----the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished? It can't be both, can it? If it is the former rather than the latter, how can the former not be a bodily resurrection? And if it is a bodily resurrection, how can we then already be in the millennium? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any bodily resurrected saints walking around and presently living on the earth among us mortals.

As to your passage you submitted. Why can't it mean this?

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That makes them dead at that point, right? But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Until the thousand years expires first, how can they fulfill Revelation 20:11-15, where it is in that context that they receive their eternal punishment?
 
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DavidPT

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So what is your millennium? One day or one thousand years or neither? I say it is neither. Your problems arise when you make the 1000 the kingdom. When it represents the binding of Satan. Satan is loosed when it ends.....


If one day and a thousand years are the same, I then don't understand your question. That would be like asking someone, which are you meaning then, January or winter?
 
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Dave L

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If one day and a thousand years are the same, I then don't understand your question. That would be like asking someone, which are you meaning then, January or winter?
If you think the 1000 years of Rev 20 might be only 1 day, which is it? 1000 years or 1 day?
 
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