Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[DavidPT]

Why can’t it just mean what it says it does, that David and Solomon sat on the Lord’s throne as king over Israel?

God was to be king over Israel, but Israel rejected him and demanded a man to be king:

And the Lord said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
1 Samuel 8:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Samuel 8:7&version=ESV

Thus David and Solomon sat on God’s throne over Israel as king.

Are you of a part of the true Israel, the body of Christ?

Is Jesus your king?

If yes, then Christ already sits on the throne as king of Israel.

You raise some good points. But what do you mean by the true Israel? What about the Israel per Ezekiel 39, as an example? Is that the same true Israel you speak of here, or is that a different Israel, a false Israel?

Some key points in regards to them, per Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

This would be meaning once He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. That judgment against them is still in the future. That apparently means, in the meantime, He is still hiding His face from the house of Israel meant here.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


The true Israel that you are speaking of, and what that means to you, would that be the same Israel He has been hiding His face from until He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitudes? The same Israel where it says in verse 29----for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD?

 

[BABerean2]

Why then can't mortals live an entire thousand years in the next age if Adam almost lived that amount of years in this age?

Wail just a minute.

You have got much bigger problems to deal with besides the fact that nothing in the New Testament talks about mortals living to great age, after the Second Coming.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Have you dealt with "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

Are your millennial mortals fireproof?


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name...........
But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.

Nicely said.

Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold! the Kingdom of God is within you.

1Co 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.

Romans 13:11
And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already [is] to be roused out of sleep,
for now nearer [is] our salvation than when we did believe...................
Romans 16:20
And the God of the peace will crush Satan under your feet in swiftness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Jesus is talking about their physical kingdom, consisting of the Temple and Sanctuary:

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

I believe this event could have happened after the ascension of Jesus? Jesus kicking Satan out

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,
for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus Kingdom is not of this world means the CURRENT FALLEN STATE of the World, not the World to come in which Jesus will reign 1000 years whilst Satan is locked into the bottomless pit.

Its very evident and biblical that Jesus reigns on earth 1000 years, UNLESS you just IGNORE SCRIPTURES.

If Jesus reigns 1000 years on earth, people will know when the end of the world comes. But He says only the Father knows this.

 

[DavidPT]

Nicely said.

Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold! the Kingdom of God is within you.

1Co 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.

Romans 13:11
And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already [is] to be roused out of sleep,
for now nearer [is] our salvation than when we did believe...................
Romans 16:20
And the God of the peace will crush Satan under your feet in swiftness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.

Jesus is talking about their physical kingdom, consisting of the Temple and Sanctuary:

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

I believe this event could have happened after the ascension of Jesus? Jesus kicking Satan out

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come,
for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Yet this is only relevant in the here and now. Eventually Christ physically returns. Why would these things above still be relevant then?

 

[DavidPT]

If Jesus reigns 1000 years on earth, people will know when the end of the world comes. But He says only the Father knows this.

The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years. Since I'm Premil, you are not even making sense here, in regards to what it would mean to Premils. But I think I already told you that in an earlier post.

 

[Dave L]

The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years. Since I'm Premil, you are not even making sense here, in regards to what it would mean to Premils. But I think I already told you that in an earlier post.

So, we have more than one "end" of the world?

 

[claninja]

But what do you mean by the true Israel?

Those who belong to Christ, jew and gentile, are Abraham's seed, true Israel.

Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

He is still hiding His face from the house of Israel meant here.
Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God poured his spirit out on the house of Israel at Pentacost, so he must not be hiding his face anymore.

Acts 2:4, 16-18 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; Even on My servants, both men and women I will pour out My Spirit in those days and they will prophesy.

Especially considering:

Ephesians 2:22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

 

[DavidPT]

So, we have more than one "end" of the world?

I'm not aware of there being two. There is not an end of the world after the thousand years that I'm aware of. All that's ended was a thousand years of eternity. Unlike other Premils, per my position, I place the initial beginning of the NHNE when Christ initially returns, and not a thousand years after He has returned, as most Premils typically do. Even Justin Martyr, where no one disputes was Premil, placed the time of the NHNE at the beginning of the 2nd coming. He did that via Isaiah 65 though. Yet, still, there is only one NHNE, not two. That means the NHNE meant in Isaiah 65 is the same NHNE meant in Revelation 21-22, obviously.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not aware of there being two. There is not an end of the world after the thousand years that I'm aware of. All that's ended was a thousand years of eternity. Unlike other Premils, per my position, I place the initial beginning of the NHNE when Christ initially returns, and not a thousand years after He has returned, as most Premils typically do. Even Justin Martyr, where no one disputes was Premil, placed the time of the NHNE at the beginning of the 2nd coming. He did that via Isaiah 65 though. Yet, still, there is only one NHNE, not two. That means the NHNE meant in Isaiah 65 is the same NHNE meant in Revelation 21-22, obviously.

You said: "The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years." = 2 ends of the world.

 

[DavidPT]

Those who belong to Christ, jew and gentile, are Abraham's seed, true Israel.

Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.



God poured his spirit out on the house of Israel at Pentacost, so he must not be hiding his face anymore.

Acts 2:4, 16-18 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; Even on My servants, both men and women I will pour out My Spirit in those days and they will prophesy.

Especially considering:

Ephesians 2:22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

That would have to mean His judgment against Gog and his multitude has already been fulfilled, that being before the time of Pentecost. Where is the proof that Gog and his multitude have already been long gone and buried prior to Pentecost? That chapter indicates, until He has first executed judgment on Gog and his multitude, He is hiding His face from them. Once He executes that judgment, He no longer is hiding His face. I'm open to your interpretation above, providing you can prove Ezekiel 39 has already been fulfilled.

 

[DavidPT]

You said: "The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years." = 2 ends of the world.

Likely a bad way of putting it on my part. I was probably meaning from your perspective, since you were the one saying there is an end of the world in the Discourse that no man knows the day nor hour, and if assuming Premil, one would then know that day and hour simply by using simple math. And I was saying, the end of the world meant in the Discourse, is not the same end of the world you are taking it to mean if assuming Premil. The end of the world in the Discourse is meaning the end of this age, and not meaning at the end of the thousand years, assuming the thousand are still future.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You said: "The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years." = 2 ends of the world.

The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years.
Since I'm Premil, you are not even making sense here, in regards to what it would mean to Premils. But I think I already told you that in an earlier post.

So, we have more than one "end" of the world?

It is rather confusing.
I do agree with the so called "end of the world" being before the 1000yr period. [Depends on ones biblical definition of it.]

As far as I can tell, there is only 1 great day of the LORD GOD Almighty in the OT, and it occurs before the 1000 yr period in Revelation. No argument with me on that......

Zepheniah 1:
7
Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD;
For the day of the LORD is at hand,
For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice;
He has invited[fn] His guests.
14
The great day of the LORD is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

2 Peter 3:12
toward-expecting and hastening the parousian <3952> of the day of the God,
thru which heavens being-fired shall be being dissolved and elements burning being melted
[Zeph 1:15,16/Revelation 16:14]

Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling them into the battle of the Day,
that the great, of the God, the Almighty. [Zephaniah 1/Ezekiel 38/39]

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars of heaven will be dissolved. The skies will be rolled up like a scroll,
and all their stars will fall like withered leaves on the vine, and foliage on the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14
The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

 

[Revealing Times]

If Jesus reigns 1000 years on earth, people will know when the end of the world comes. But He says only the Father knows this.

Only the Father knows when the Groom comes for the Bride (Rapture). Of course the Rapture and the Second Coming are different events. Of course its just the End of the Age.

 

[Douggg]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

Dave, currently the kingdoms of this world are under the dominion of the invisible (mystical) kingdom of Satan and his angels. In Revelation 11:14-15, just past the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel 9, the seventh trumpet blows - which basically is the signal that Satan and his angels kingdom - called Babylon the Great - God will begin to dismantle. It begins with the war in heaven (the second heaven) and Satan and his angels are cast down, restricted to earth, forthcoming.

And after a time, times, and half times (nominally three and half years, but not exactly), Jesus returns to this earth bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to become Kingdom of God here on earth. Physically the governing Kingdom over planet earth at that time.

Is also in Daniel 2:44. If the kingdom were solely a spiritual kingdom, then it would not say in the days of the (ten implied) kings - the kingdom of God will be set up to never be destroyed.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

 

[DavidPT]

Is also in Daniel 2:44. If the kingdom were solely a spiritual kingdom, then it would not say in the days of the (ten implied) kings - the kingdom of God will be set up to never be destroyed.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Exactly. What I have underlined in your post.

 

[BABerean2]

In Revelation 11:14-15, just past the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel 9, the seventh trumpet blows - which basically is the signal that Satan and his angels kingdom - called Babylon the Great - God will begin to dismantle. It begins with the war in heaven (the second heaven) and Satan and his angels are cast down, restricted to earth, forthcoming.

Verse 5 below shows that this passage is made up of past events.

It also follows "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
It proves once again that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Based on Psalm 2, the "man-child" who rules with a rod of iron is Christ.)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(The verse above is also a past event.)
.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Douggg said: ↑
Is also in Daniel 2:44. If the kingdom were solely a spiritual kingdom, then it would not say in the days of the (ten implied) kings - the kingdom of God will be set up to never be destroyed..........

Exactly. What I have underlined in your post.

How about the 10 kings symbolizing the divorced house of Israel?
Just throwing that far fetched view out there..........

Daniel 7:24
The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.

Acts 1:6
The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying,
`Lord!, if in this time you are restoring the Kingdom to the Israel?'

Reve 17:12
And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom not-yet received,
but authority as kings, one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,

Jeremiah 3:8
“Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;
yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[Douggg]

How about the 10 kings symbolizing the divorced house of Israel?
Just throwing that far fetched view out there..........

Daniel 7:24
The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.

Acts 1:6
The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying,
`Lord!, if in this time you are restoring the Kingdom to the Israel?'

Reve 17:12
And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom not-yet received,
but authority as kings, one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,

Jeremiah 3:8
“Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce;
yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

Hi LittleLambofJesus, the ten kings in Revelation 13, 17, Daniel 2, Daniel 7 are all the same kings. I say in Revelation 13 because it is in that chapter that they have their crowns (i.e. on the ten horns) to rule with person after he has become the beast.

That gives a lot to work with to pinpoint who they are. In Daniel 7:23-24, their kingdom is the fourth kingdom represented by the four beasts. So they would not be representing the northern kingdom of Israel (of the two break-up kingdoms).

They are ten leaders of the EU in its final form. When the little horn, their leader, heads to the middle east with a strong army, the motivation for the ten kings (speculation on my part) will be greed to control all the oil territories in the aftermath of Gog/Magog.

The little horn person is on two tracks. Which if one can grasp that concept - it makes everything much more understandable.

1. The person will be on a track to become the King of Israel (illegitimate) temporarily, i.e. the Antichrist, perceived messiah to the Jews. Leading the Jews to think they are in the messianic age of peace and safety.

2. The person will be on a track to become the King of the Roman Empire. And that is the status which he will start out and later end. King 7, then King 8. With being the Antichrist sandwiched in between.

Starting as the little horn, leader of Europe, and the ten kings. That is their kingdom. The end times fourth empire. As the little horn, he will be the seventh king of the Roman Empire of the Caesar family line.

Then following Gog/Magog, the little horn person heads into the middle east, and the Jews think he is their messiah. And he will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet.

Acts as the King of Israel for three years, three months thereabouts, before totally unexpected flips out and goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

The Jews, mortified, impeach him from continuing as their King. No longer is the Antichrist. He has become the revealed man of sin. God has him killed.

God brings him back to life in disdain for the person. When he comes back to life, the ten European leaders buy into his seemingly verified claim of having achieved God-hood.... and commit their EU kingdom to him for his 42 months of reign, as their King, now the 8th of the Caesar kings, which is what Revelation 17:12 is about.

Most of Revelation is about him being the King of the Roman Empire, in the end times; not as him being the King of Israel, the Antichrist.

The only place in Revelation, really, that he is the Antichrist is in Revelation 6, the rider on the white horse who is given a crown.... temporarily the King of Israel (illegitimate).

 

[Douggg]

You said: "The end of the world Jesus was talking about in the Discourse, is not the end of the world at the end of the thousand years." = 2 ends of the world.

Dave, if I might comment. It was the disciples who asked...

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

They framed their question without knowing what all was involved. Jesus answered not in regards to the destruction of this present earth, but to the end of the age. The end of the age being when Satan and his angels no longer have dominion over the nations. And Jesus returns to rule this earth, after they have been removed from activity.