Error of Christanity...

[chevyontheriver]

Those figures originate with the World Christian Encyclopedia. They do point that out. For example, there were at one point over 800 Baptists denominations and quite a few were national chuches but there are only about 200 of those. In addition they also pointed out that about half the grand total were so called "non-denominational" churches. Of course the vast majority of those are actually evangelical or fundamentalist churches of one flavour or another. With all of this in mind there are still many thousands of denominations. Sadly, a great number of them condemn a great number of the others as heretics or worse.

That source also lists more than 100 Catholic denominations when there is really only one. They do this because they consider the Catholic Church in different countries to be different entities. So the 40,000 figure is way too high. One 'could' accurately say 'thousands' but 40,000 is way too high.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Maybe so, maybe not. I personally wouldn’t know but I can’t see why it would be wrong to ask questions. And when the answers given are merely the opinions of a person or even that of the larger group as a whole it’s still ok to leave room for the possibility that there is some misinformation or possibly just flat out wrong.

Without their authority, you have no way of knowing what is and is not Sacred Scripture. There is no divinely-revealed table of contents.

The Church created the New Testament; the New Testament did not create the Church.

 

[thecolorsblend]

That source also lists more than 100 Catholic denominations when there is really only one. They do this because they consider the Catholic Church in different countries to be different entities. So the 40,000 figure is way too high. One 'could' accurately say 'thousands' but 40,000 is way too high.

Eh. If non-denominational communities are considered denominations unto themselves (which is my thesis, btw) then maybe the number could be 40,000.

Maybe?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Eh. If non-denominational communities are considered denominations unto themselves (which is my thesis, btw) then maybe the number could be 40,000.

Maybe?

So each individual congregation is it's own denomination? Maybe. But then why not every Baptist congregation as they are quite independent of each other?

 

[thecolorsblend]

So each individual congregation is it's own denomination? Maybe. But then why not every Baptist congregation as they are quite independent of each other?

Sounds good to me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sounds good to me.

I think the problem there is that lots of non-denominationals pretty much agree with each other and thus it's an overstatement of the actual duplication of the number of different kinds of Protestant belief.

It's kind of like saying there would be 5000 Catholic denominations because there are 5000 Catholic bishops in the world, most of them actual heads of local Churches as heads of dioceses. When in reality they make up one Church because they are in communion with each other. Some of those non-denominational denominations are in communion with each other in some way. Thus the 40,000 number is too high. It's still a mess, but using the 40,000 number is less than accurate.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Without their authority, you have no way of knowing what is and is not Sacred Scripture. There is no divinely-revealed table of contents.

The Church created the New Testament; the New Testament did not create the Church.

Your absolutely right that I have no way of being certain. And I have no problem admitting that. That is the reason I do not claim to know for certain hardly anything. I have my beliefs and I leave room for the possibility I could be wrong even on the things I feel pretty strongly about.... unless I’m 100% certain. Having this attitude is what has allowed me to be open others in a way without being self righteous because I truly believe there are lots of people who have different opinions than me that are simply doing the best they can.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Your absolutely right that I have no way of being certain. And I have no problem admitting that. That is the reason I do not claim to know for certain hardly anything. I have my beliefs and I leave room for the possibility I could be wrong even on the things I feel pretty strongly about.... unless I’m 100% certain. Having this attitude is what has allowed me to be open others in a way without being self righteous because I truly believe there are lots of people who have different opinions than me that are simply doing the best they can.

At least that's better than the guy who opens up his KJV to the table of contents page and points to it with certainty saying that he knows what books are supposed to be in the Bible because it's right there in the Bible, on the table of contents page of the very book that was good enough for Jesus and Paul.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

At least that's better than the guy who opens up his KJV to the table of contents page and points to it with certainty saying that he knows what books are supposed to be in the Bible because it's right there in the Bible, on the table of contents page of the very book that was good enough for Jesus and Paul.

Lol

 

[Mathetes66]

"Even Apollos had to have some of his teachings straightened out by Priscilla and Aquila."

This actually is a great passage to look at, being pertinent to the OP, so I am glad you mentioned it.

Here is the text & another supporting one.

Acts 18:24-28 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a THOROUGH KNOWLEDGE (lit. 'powerfully capable of handling') of the Scriptures. 25 He HAD BEEN INSTRUCTED IN THE WAY OF THE LORD & he spoke with great fervor & taught about Jesus ACCURATELY, though he knew ONLY the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly IN THE SYNAGOGUE. When Priscilla & Aquila heard him, they invited him TO THEIR HOME & explained to him the way of God MORE ACCURATELY. 27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers & sisters encouraged him & wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Romans 16:3-5 Greet Prisca & Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches OF THE GENTILES give thanks as well. 5 Greet also the CHURCH IN THEIR HOUSE.

I Cor 16:19 The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila & Priscilla greet you warmly in the Lord & so does the church that meets AT THEIR HOUSE.

What do we know about Apollos from this first passage?

*He was a learned man, much like Paul. (Acts 26:24; John 7:15)
*He had a thorough knowledge & powerful grasp of the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:14-17)
*He had been instructed in the way of the Lord.
*He spoke with fervor in the Spirit (Young's Literal Translation)
*He taught the things about JESUS ACCURATELY, though he knew (was familiar with) only the baptism of John.
*He began to speak boldly in the synagogue in Ephesus.
*Priscilla & Aquila took him into their house/home & MORE accurately explained the way of God to him.
*He traveled to Achaia (churches of Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, etc.) on recommendation by the brethren at Ephesus & greatly HELPED those who by grace had believed.
*He powerfully convinced & utterly refuted the Jews in public, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.

In the first passage, the Greek word translated 'accurately' in verse 25 is the same word used in verse 26, also.

We notice that Priscilla & Aquila were more mature Christians, having been fellow workers with Paul in various cities & wherever they were located, they had a local church in their house in areas where the brethren were primarily Gentile.

So we see that Apollos, as a Jew, primarily dealt with Jews, both in the synagogue & in public until he met Priscilla & Aquila, who had Gentiles meeting in their home.

Though Apollos was thoroughly familiar with the OT Scriptures & could accurately teach concerning Jesus as the Christ, using the OT Scriptures that 'are able to make one wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus' (2 Tim 3:15)--he apparently was not familiar with the mystery of the gospel revealed to the apostle Paul by the Lord Jesus, concerning the Gentiles being fellow heirs of the same body of Christ, one new man in place of the two.

Eph 3:4-6 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles & prophets. This mystery is that the GENTILES ARE FELLOW HEIRS, members of the same body & partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Here the mature couple could more accurately, more exactly, more perfectly add to what Apollos already knew, bringing more light on OT Scriptures concerning this mystery. Their association with Paul as his fellow workers brought them this additional teaching concerning the fullness of the gospel message.

As a result of their instruction, Apolllos then wanted to go to the Gentile churches in Achaia, to put into practice his more thorough knowledge of the gospel, enriching what he already knew. He became a great help to those Gentile churches. It mentions he refuted the Jews IN PUBLIC as opposed to just going to the synagogues where only Jews were.

We can all learn from this example. I have. Thank you Willie T!

And I apologize, Jen, for simply focusing on your false teaching without being 'more accurate' in instructing you concerning the Person of the Holy Spirit & why our relationship with Him as person to person is so important. You mentioned that you are newer to the Christian faith & doctrine, so I should have taken that into account, as well as finding out your background of how you learned about Christianity.

I am always amazed at how being immersed in the living Word of God, which is living, active & powerful to change lives, is able to change each one of us, so that we might delight in His will & walk in His ways through the filling & guidance of the Holy Spirit & all to the glory of His holy name. Amen.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Your absolutely right that I have no way of being certain. And I have no problem admitting that. That is the reason I do not claim to know for certain hardly anything. I have my beliefs and I leave room for the possibility I could be wrong even on the things I feel pretty strongly about.... unless I’m 100% certain. Having this attitude is what has allowed me to be open others in a way without being self righteous because I truly believe there are lots of people who have different opinions than me that are simply doing the best they can.

I have gratitude for not having to be uncertain of absolutely everything. For example, I can know the canon of Scripture is accurate because the Church tells me it is so and I can know the Nicene Creed is true the same way. I don't have to be 'provisional' about either. There are enough other things that are not settled to keep me busy but I am grateful for what certainty has been hammered out over 20 centuries.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

I have gratitude for not having to be uncertain of absolutely everything. For example, I can know the canon of Scripture is accurate because the Church tells me it is so and I can know the Nicene Creed is true the same way. I don't have to be 'provisional' about either. There are enough other things that are not settled to keep me busy but I am grateful for what certainty has been hammered out over 20 centuries.

That’s awesome! I appreciate you taking the time to talk in a loving and kind way. God bless you

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is simply not accurate with respect to the Catholic Church. What you write may hold true for other communities. I wouldn't know. But it is not true of Catholicism.

Sacramental absolution. That can only be obtained in Confession.

John 20:23 means something. Historically, the Church has interpreted that passage to mean that she has the authority to pronounce forgiveness or retention on sins. Indeed, this doctrine went unchallenged for centuries.

Frankly, I think the onus is on Protestants to explain why they reject a practice with such a lengthy history.

Is Absolution available only one-on-one with a priest, or does the Penitential Rite of the Mass also count?

In Lutheranism the General Confession in the Penitential Rite is considered sufficient, but Private Confession is made available upon request.

It's been my understanding that Private Confession is not required in Catholicism, if that understanding is in error than I welcome correction.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Eh. If non-denominational communities are considered denominations unto themselves (which is my thesis, btw) then maybe the number could be 40,000.

Maybe?

At that point, if we were to count every independent/autonomous congregation to be a denomination for the point of counting, probably much higher than 40,000. Arguably uncountable at that point. I mean what difference would it make between an independent congregation of 20 meeting in a small church hall and Bob having a Sunday Bible study with his three friends in the kitchen?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

That’s not answering the question. Does the Bible contain clearly communicated absolute truth?

Some essential truths are clear while others are not. Like I said.

 

[RDKirk]

Some essential truths are clear while others are not. Like I said.

I think all the essential truths are clear--always through multiple scriptural witnesses explicitly asserted in each one. Others with single references or not so explicitly stated are nonessential.

 

[Jen35]

Those things I directly quoted you on were not typing errors! You chose to focus on the last thing I put in my post as an afterthought, on an internationally well known Christian teacher & apologist, who was known for his maturity & Christian spirituality. He said the SAME thing as the doctrine of the Trinity & the Nicene & Athanasius Creeds so your trying to escape the obvious ancient, historical Christian doctrines didn't work!

Anyone teaching contrary to FOUNDATIONAL historical Christian doctrines, IF they were wrong, would immediately CONFESS their faith in the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. You did not!

You tried to dodge your obvious false teaching on who the Holy Spirit is, by not addressing the Triune God & the Nicene & Athanasian Creeds nor the AGREEMENT Chuck Smith had with both of those historic Christian doctrines.



First of all, it has NOTHING to do with what is FITTING in my own eyes or ears but it has everything to do with teaching contrary to historic, passed down foundational Christian doctrine, that has been agreed upon for millenia. That is what the prophets taught. That is what Jesus taught. That is what the apostles' taught. And that is what the apostolic churches have passed down to us, the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints.'

Then you use ad hominems (attacking the person rather than their dealing with the Christian doctrine) toward me, saying I was HARSHLY condemning you or I was getting ahead of myself or I should overlook your obvious false teaching.

I never condemned you or said you were stupid or mad fun of any typing errors; you said those not me. My desire is to bring you to face what you taught as false teaching from Christian teaching. My desire was to bring correction not condemnation. My desire is that you confess with your mouth, by faith in these sacred truths that Christians have done so for millenia.

What I addressed was your false teaching contrary to historic Christian doctrine. You haven't denied it either. You haven't addressed the doctrine of the Trinity. You haven't addressed the Nicene & Athanasius' Creeds. You haven't addressed Chuck Smith's teaching that is the same as the afore mentioned doctrine & Creeds.

I never once mentioned anything about your typing or grammar. That is not the issue. Nor teaching falsely about foundational Christian doctrine; it can't be ignored or overlooked like you would want me to do.

There is nothing to forgive. You haven't offended me. I have only spoken the truth in love. No Christian would be loving if they didn't point these things out. I have given you an opportunity to respond to what I showed you, to correct me in anyway by what I have pointed out.

You haven't. You said that if you needed correcting, to say so. I already did. I was waiting for your response if you would accept that correction & align yourself with historic Christianity. You haven't.

So I again appeal to you, to be honest & straightforward. Do you believe that God is TRIUNE, that there is one God by being or nature, that reveals Himself as three distinct Persons, who intrinsically are that one eternal Being we Christians call God; that the Father is not playing a role as the Son or the Holy Spirit nor the Holy Spirit playing a role as the Father or the Son?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal & co-eternal with the Father & the Son but is distinct as to Person, from the Person of the Father & the Person of the Son?

If you don't agree with these historic Christian doctrines, which all branches of Christianity do, then simply admit it. Being honest is a first step to knowing the true Triune God.

"In essentials, UNITY; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things charity."

And who are you to address me this way? You don't know me and I don't know you, simple as that. And while my teaching may be false haven't you ever consider that maybe you don't understand anything I said because maybe you are the one who lacks spiritual understanding?. I know the Bible says it's hard for someone to accept and believe spiritual things for having and remaining in such a natural state having carnal minds. So, of course it would confuse one if they possess no spiritual understanding and no spiritual mind at all. And yeah, when someone say to someone thier teaching is false and disagrees with something and then go agree with someone else it means it wasn't fitting to thier eyes or ears so thereafter agree and go after what makes them feel good and agreeable in thier eyes..And I don't know Chuck , I'm not famaliar with that person because I never heard of him before but I did read most things he said on thier however I never said I didn't agree with Chuck or liked what was posted on thier cause truthfully most of what I did read was true what he did say, my point was you said you had the holy spirit but instead of letting the holy spirit speak though you to respond to me you posted a website of what someone else said and responded to me that way instead. I was just trying to understand why you couldn't respond through the holy spirit which you say you do have and seem to possess all knowledge on. And I don't remember coming on here and teaching about the trinity but I know whether they are co equal or not i know for Jesus being born of God and the holy spirit and because Jesus was born of God he is not the father , he is the divine son of God who was born within the father and his spirit which makes him fully divine person not of a natural birth but a spiritual one and because knowingly Jesus being born of God, does it really matter , for having knowing that reason they are still truly one in the same. And while love truimphs over all things I don't know why the love card is thrown in a lot. I don't understand that..I know we are to love everyone and speak in love but why do people hold that against others so much. Dude, I know the rules okay and I know Jesus says we are to do everything in love and love our neighbor but I also know the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all our hearts soul and mind and to tell you the truth because of people like you it's why I love God more then my neighbor unlike some of you who claim to love God yet seem to love thier neighbor more then him, more out to please men then thier God. And while I can't speak for God who are you to address me this way and say what I am teaching is false and what would make Chuck more agreeable and Nobler in God's eyes for you to imply chuck smith is better then me because he seems to supposdely posess more understanding and truth then i and while that may be true you still can't judge me that way and imply I'm unworthy in God's eyes and for that reason God gave Chuck authority and made him more Noble then me? Are you kidding me? Whether I'm some one important or not unless I can wake up and still find myself loving and thinking of God. And once again you do not know me to make such wild assumptions about me. And just because Chuck is more right then me and I seem to be in error and my teachings it still doesn't exclude me from God and what he can do with me because I know God also does give and takes away and I know he lowers and exalts people too but I'm not going to speak for God cause I'm not in such a position to do that not. So you through the love card at me and then you say my teaching is false when I don't remember teaching anything but just came on here and only decided to vent about something I felt irritated about. And while I may not know much i know most of what is posted here doesn't sound like it came from the holy spirit at all what is taught here just seems natural to me.. they don't sound or look spiritual at all and they dont look like the teachings of one possessing the holy spirit. But go read words and teaching of someone as of Jesus, because that my friend is teachings of spiritual words and wisdom. That my friend is spiritual knowledge and one full of the spirit....you can keep making such assumptions about me and while I do not care , i do forgive you because I saw you apologise in that other post but please don't throw love card at me while I know the rules already responding to me as you did, I won't always be loving especially to such things that hurt me and insults me...and while Jesus did say to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor i know he also said to be wise as a servant but gentle as a dove and right now you are condemning that dove...and there will never be unity within the church when the true church itself was rejected and replaced by such a unity and those who claim to be in such unity...

 

[fhansen]

I think all the essential truths are clear--always through multiple scriptural witnesses explicitly asserted in each one. Others with single references or not so explicitly stated are nonessential.

I think if we're honest, and had no dog in the fight, picking up the bible and reading it with no external input, no witness of the Church from the beginning, we wouldn't be sure if Jesus is God or not, for one thing. Anyway, after reading we'd scratch our heads, put the book down, and move on to cleaning up the garage or whatever was next on our plate.

 

[A_Thinker]

I think all the essential truths are clear--always through multiple scriptural witnesses explicitly asserted in each one. Others with single references or not so explicitly stated are nonessential.

I agree.

It simply cannot be essential that a first century non-reader would have to understand any but the most basic tenets of belief.

The thief on the cross understood that Jesus could usher him into some type of new life.

That was enough ...

 

[fhansen]

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