Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[RestoreTheJoy]

doing something that one does for anyone else is not an event

You keep reiterating what has been fully addressed, as if the facts will change by repetition. They won't.

Understand this: Cake decorators (or photographers, or portrait painters, or fill-in-the-blank artist) do NOT take all events. No cake baker is required to decorate a cake for every event requested, nor is he obligated to take any particular event, and present any message that anyone wants.

You want some cake for a pro-NAMBLA event? Yeah, good luck. You'll find someone who just wants the money and doesn't care...but you won't be able to force everyone to do it.

This baker has never done and does not decorate for particular events, such as Halloween events, or divorce parties, as repeatedly stated. He is not required to participate in decorating a cake for any event. This baker also declined the "operable p*nis cake" demanded by that nut job Scardina who has harassed him continually.

I don't know how this is unclear or how you are conflating nonsensically with race, as that is not at issue here.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Just like the Broadway Theater of Knoxville Tennessee doesn't provide services to all of the public

do they sell bacon cheeseburgers to everyone except a single minority?

No.


does he design and make wedding cakes for everyone except for a single minority?

yes, that is exactly what he does.

So is your deli thing reflective of the situation.

Not at all.

Bacon cheeseburgers aren't exactly equivalent....they sell each ingredient but not the finished product. Same as the baker could do here, I suppose, but most people want someone who is good at it to decorate their cake for an event, not take supplies and try a DIY wedding cake (unless talented).

He did weddings. This was not a wedding at all, not being legal at the time. No, they can't force him to create a wedding cake for a non-wedding.

He was definitely free not to do weddings that are not weddings (so far).

The "minority" label has no applicability here. He only did weddings, for thirty years, as I recall. He is not required to do an event for a non-wedding as a wedding for anyone at all.

 

[KCfromNC]

You keep reiterating what has been fully addressed, as if the facts will change by repetition. They won't.

Understand this: Cake decorators (or photographers, or portrait painters, or fill-in-the-blank artist) do NOT take all events.

I thought bakers baked stuff and sold it to people. Where's all this taking "events" coming from?

 

[SilverBear]

You keep reiterating what has been fully addressed, as if the facts will change by repetition. They won't.

Understand this: Cake decorators (or photographers, or portrait painters, or fill-in-the-blank artist) do NOT take all events. No cake baker is required to decorate a cake for every event requested, nor is he obligated to take any particular event, and present any message that anyone wants.

no they aren't required to take any order they get. However they are not legally allowed to reject an order because of the minority status of the customer.

If a baker doesn't make wedding cakes for anyone then it's not discrimination to decline to make a wedding cake for say in interracial couple. But making wedding cakes for others but not the interracial couple says it's not about the event its about the minority status of the couple.

You want some cake for a pro-NAMBLA event? Yeah, good luck. You'll find someone who just wants the money and doesn't care...but you won't be able to force everyone to do it.

ah NAMBLA. Something to pull out when you can't justify bigotry any other way....

This baker has never done and does not decorate for particular events, such as Halloween events, or divorce parties, as repeatedly stated.

but he does do wedding cakes. Even wedding cakes for dogs

He is not required to participate in decorating a cake for any event. This baker also declined the "operable p*nis cake" demanded by that nut job Scardina who has harassed him continually.

in 2017 Scardina ordered a birthday cake from your baker. Birthdays are one of the events he does do and has said he would happily make a birthday cake for anyone. Phillips refused to make a pink cake with blue frosting for her.

I don't know how this is unclear or how you are conflating nonsensically with race, as that is not at issue here.

Discrimination is the issue here[/quote][/quote]

 

[SilverBear]

I thought bakers baked stuff and sold it to people. Where's all this taking "events" coming from?

it's word play to try to make bigotry and discrimination look like justifiable

 

[KCfromNC]

it's word play to try to make bigotry and discrimination look like justifiable

It is impressive how the defenses of the baker seem to be largely based in things which didn't actually happen. Getting back on topic, similar to how no one seems to actually want to discuss what's actually wrong with the bill in question in the OP, but instead pretend that it is going to legislate what people believe or something.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I thought bakers baked stuff and sold it to people. Where's all this taking "events" coming from?

Asked and answered (though perhaps to another poster).

ANYONE can walk in and buy a chocolate cake or raspberry cake or pie or cookie, or whatever is available. All goods sold on site are available on a first come, first served basis.

One final time: An event that requires a custom decorated cake is entirely a separate sort of job, an event that is booked, as opposed to a purchase of any available things on the shelf. Events are limited by time, and only so many bookings can be accommodated.

NO artist of any kind - be it custom cake maker, photographer, oil painter, whatever, can be obligated to do an event. This particular baker did not ever do Halloween events, or Divorce parties; he declined them all. Those were simply something he chose not to do. Similarly, he did not do same sex weddings, an nonexistent impossibility under state law (at the time).

He simply was honest with the customers, rather than pretending he was already booked (as a less ethical person might do) who promptly filed a complaint. They passed up several other bakers to go to this guy, if you read the documentation, because he was known as a Christian who had scripture verses posted in his bakery. This was totally a set up.

 

[KCfromNC]

Asked and answered (though perhaps to another poster).

ANYONE can walk in and buy a chocolate cake or raspberry cake or pie or cookie, or whatever is available. All goods sold on site are available on a first come, first served basis.

One final time: An event that requires a custom decorated cake is entirely a separate sort of job, an event that is booked, as opposed to a purchase of any available things on the shelf. Events are limited by time, and only so many bookings can be accommodated.

That's nice. Doesn't mean that baking a cake isn't baking a cake.

] This particular baker did not ever do Halloween events, or Divorce parties; he declined them all.

Did he consistently decline baking cakes for parties, or only for parties where the people were the wrong gender?

He simply was honest with the customers

If I honestly tell you I'm going to steal your car, does that make it any less against the law? Not sure what the point is here.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That's nice. Doesn't mean that baking a cake isn't baking a cake.



Did he consistently decline baking cakes for parties, or only for parties where the people were the wrong gender?


If I honestly tell you I'm going to steal your car, does that make it any less against the law? Not sure what the point is here.

No one is compelled to produce artwork of any kind with a message the violates his own Constitutional or other rights. We know how much a certain segment is into autocratic control, but as of yet, can't do it.

You can't walk into an artist's shop and demand a portrait painted in a compromising position or with inappropriate subjects. Someone out there will take your money and do it, undoubtedly, but you cannot compel just anyone to do it.

You can't demand a cake baker do your event (or non-event, in this case, as this was a legal impossibility), against his own religious beliefs. This one declined Halloween, and divorce parties already, and no one could compel him to do them.

 

[SilverBear]

They passed up several other bakers to go to this guy, if you read the documentation, because he was known as a Christian who had scripture verses posted in his bakery. This was totally a set up.

This is a blatant lie.

 

[SilverBear]

No one is compelled to produce artwork of any kind with a message the violates his own Constitutional or other rights. We know how much a certain segment is into autocratic control, but as of yet, can't do it.

he makes wedding cakes for a living. he just chooses to not sell them to a certain minority, which is against the constitution

You can't walk into an artist's shop and demand a portrait painted in a compromising position or with inappropriate subjects.

which no one was doing. It is shameful and dishonest on your part to imply they were asking for anything of the short. Please remember that no details of the cake being requested were known to your baker, he just asked who the cake was for and when he found out it was for a minority couple he refused service.

 

[KCfromNC]

No one is compelled to produce artwork of any kind with a message the violates his own Constitutional or other rights.

That's nice, but this case was about baker refusing to sell a cake to the wrong type of minority when he'd sell it to anyone else in the same circumstances.

You can't walk into an artist's shop and demand a portrait painted in a compromising position or with inappropriate subjects.

Yeah, how terrible was it for people to assume that a guy who makes money selling cakes would sell a cake. It's obviously the customer's fault for expecting to be treated the same as all his other customers.

You can't demand a cake baker do your event

No one asked him to "do" an "event", just sell a cake. Just like he did multiple times for anyone who wasn't the wrong type of minority.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

This is a blatant lie.

You have not read the court documents. I have .

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

he makes wedding cakes for a living. he just chooses to not sell them to a certain minority, which is against the constitution

which no one was doing. It is shameful and dishonest on your part to imply they were asking for anything of the short. Please remember that no details of the cake being requested were known to your baker, he just asked who the cake was for and when he found out it was for a minority couple he refused service.

False.

He does make custom wedding cakes. This was not a wedding. Not legal (at the time).

He does not make custom cakes for other events that he chooses to decline, with messages that conflict with his faith.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That's nice, but this case was about baker refusing to sell a cake to the wrong type of minority when he'd sell it to anyone else in the same circumstances.



Yeah, how terrible was it for people to assume that a guy who makes money selling cakes would sell a cake. It's obviously the customer's fault for expecting to be treated the same as all his other customers.


No one asked him to "do" an "event", just sell a cake. Just like he did multiple times for anyone who wasn't the wrong type of minority.

That's completely inaccurate. You entirely misunderstand his stance. There are messages he will not create on cakes...which included anti-gay cakes, or cakes that denigrate anyone in particular. It's not about the buyer. It's about the message and it's conflict with his biblical stance.

Let him speak for himself:
Here Phillips is speaking in an interview: The same thing I've been saying to hundreds of people ever since — that I serve everybody who comes in my shop, but there are certain cakes that I can't create because of an inherent message or written message that the cake would contain and that I can't convey.

In their case, it was a cake that had a different view of marriage. I believe the biblical view of marriage. It’s between a man and a woman. I would gladly serve these people, these two men, any other cake, other custom works or sell them anything out of my showcase. [I would tell them] that it was not them that I was not serving. I was just declining to create a cake that went against my core beliefs. But they were welcome in my shop.

(Note: ***Only the biblical view of marriage was legal at the time).

But, again, it’s just cakes. I also don't create cakes that celebrate Halloween or cakes with alcohol in them or cakes that denigrate other people, including the people who identify as LGBT.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

That's nice, but this case was about baker refusing to sell a cake to the wrong type of minority when he'd sell it to anyone else in the same circumstances.



Yeah, how terrible was it for people to assume that a guy who makes money selling cakes would sell a cake. It's obviously the customer's fault for expecting to be treated the same as all his other customers.


No one asked him to "do" an "event", just sell a cake. Just like he did multiple times for anyone who wasn't the wrong type of minority.

No new content here. You simply keep reiterating the same inaccuracies.

 

[SilverBear]

You have not read the court documents. I have .

then reference and quote them

 

[SilverBear]

False.

He does make custom wedding cakes. This was not a wedding. Not legal (at the time).

so it wasn't an event as you keep trying to claim.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

then reference and quote them

Find the previous thread where I spent way too long doing that, if you are really interested. I did the work there, or you can do it here. I'm not doing it again, but was quite well-versed in the documents when the case came down( and qualified to interpret what I am reading).

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

so it wasn't an event as you keep trying to claim.

Um, events are weddings. Prior booking required. Wedding cakes are not stock items; they are customized.

A quick stop to pick up those brownies you have a craving for - if not all sold out - is a purchase not an event. No prior booking required to get off the shelf items.

I really thought most people understood how bakeries work, but maybe not. Who knew?