Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[Aldebaran]

all you are doing is showing you haven't read the legislation

Is there something in the legislation that says that no laws can be passed in the future to alter what would be law if this bill were passed? If so, post it here so we can all see it.

 

[SilverBear]

Is there something in the legislation that says that no laws can be passed in the future to alter what would be law if this bill were passed? If so, post it here so we can all see it.

there is nothing in the legislation to support the fear mongering claims being made against it.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Is there something in the legislation that says that no laws can be passed in the future to alter what would be law if this bill were passed? If so, post it here so we can all see it.

I am almost certain that the number of laws that have language in them that prevents any future changes or repeal are close to zero.

 

[Aldebaran]

there is nothing in the legislation to support the fear mongering claims being made against it.

You simply avoided what I asked you. But that's ok since it makes the answer even more obvious.

 

[Aldebaran]

I am almost certain that the number of laws that have language in them that prevents any future changes or repeal are close to zero.

That's how they get these types of laws through. They say, "Look, it doesn't affect religious organizations, so it's ok". Then after the law goes through and people want to force religious organizations to do things, then they call such exemptions a loophole, and then campaign to "close the loophole" with new legislation to prevent "discrimination based on religion".

 

[Belk]

That's how they get these types of laws through. They say, "Look, it doesn't affect religious organizations, so it's ok". Then after the law goes through and people want to force religious organizations to do things, then they call such exemptions a loophole, and then campaign to "close the loophole" with new legislation to prevent "discrimination based on religion".

Can you tell us an example of this happening?

 

[SilverBear]

You simply avoided what I asked you. But that's ok since it makes the answer even more obvious.

and you have avoided reading the legislation itself

 

[Steve11987]

Thanks for sharing, it's interesting to hear of this happening across the Atlantic (or "across the pond"?)

It sounds like the Equality Act you're discussing is similar to the one being considered in the US, but maybe different in a few respects. One of the key issues is the mandate for doctors to perform abortions & sex changes, even if it's against their moral or professional judgement (see the source from the OP). Discrimination is terribly un-Christian, as you point out, yet this mandate is beyond the level of discrimination, and prevents religious beliefs against these operations (as Catholics, Muslims, and other significant groups hold) from validating a doctor's refusal to perform an operation against their moral & professional judgement. This seems contrary to dignity & humanity.

So, you're saying that any doctor has to perform an abortion or sex change on demand? That doesn't sound right! I mean, what would a pediatrician know about performing abortions?

 

[Steve11987]

First of all, I appreciate your willingness to continue a dialogue. I always wonder how many people pass me off as stupid or ignorant, without bothering to ask for clarification that could shift their understanding (at least, I know this is something I'm guilty of). This article pulls quotes from the Equality Act & references to similar legislation & court appeals to explain what I said better than I can:

5 Things To Know About The Extremist ‘Equality Act’ The House Passed

I'm not too familiar with The Federalist, but from my limited experience, it seems to have a slant in their opinions, but very well-done articles. While I wish they would cite more sources, the level of research is impressive, and anyone who's still skeptical is welcome to cross-check it's claims & let us know what you find.


I imagine this would only apply to physicians who already have the training. Cross check me if you want, but I don't know of any health care legislation that calls on doctors to act outside of their training.

So, why would a doctor who specializes in abortion refuse to perform an abortion? If you want training to perform abortions doesn't that mean you WANT to perform abortions??? And the same with sex changes. This makes no sense!

 

[Steve11987]

no.

you know that


Churches are not places of business and pastors aren't public servants. NO one can compel anyone to conduct a marriage. This is why you still hear about pastor's refusing to marrying interracial couples, refusing to do so is not illegal

Exactly! You can always have a civil ceremony and be officially recognized as being married.

 

[KCfromNC]

Trying to change the subject will not change the facts.

Good thing I'm not doing either.
Any chance you want to address the content of what I did write?

 

[Aldebaran]

Can you tell us an example of this happening?

Gun dealers being required to do background checks, while private sales were exempt. Now it's called the "gun show loophole", and there's currently legislation to require background checks even on private sales as a result.

 

[Aldebaran]

and you have avoided reading the legislation itself

If I've claimed something erroneously, then you would have been able to copy/paste the part of the legislation you believe I've cited erroneously.

 

[SilverBear]

If I've claimed something erroneously, then you would have been able to copy/paste the part of the legislation you believe I've cited erroneously.

the point is what you claimed is not part of the legislation. Which you would know if you had bothered to read it

 

[URA]

So, why would a doctor who specializes in abortion refuse to perform an abortion? If you want training to perform abortions doesn't that mean you WANT to perform abortions??? And the same with sex changes. This makes no sense!

Fair point; let me explain a little more.

I am trained in first aid. I can apply tourniquets, a first-aid procedure that is only good to do in very limited circumstances. While I voluntarily took the training to do this, there may come a time when I refuse a tourniquet to someone, on the grounds that it is an overly drastic procedure for what the person is suffering. The same could be said of the aforementioned procedures; an abortion doctor or sex change doctor may be willing to do their procedures on a variety of people, but some cases, may tell the person that they are not in a state where the procedure would be a good idea.

Does this make sense? I know how to apply sex changes/abortions/tourniquets, but in specific circumstances, I may use my professional judgement to decide against it for a patient who wants it. This is especially pertinent with adolescents who want sex changes; speaking as someone who suffered from gender confusion in my teenage years, I'm exceptionally thankful that I was not in an environment of people who would encourage me to go through with a drastic procedure. A sex change doctor may believe they should only perform on adults, but with the demands of the Equality Act, a struggling teen may demand a sex change that the doctor believes should not be performed at that age, and the professional judgement is nullified in favor of "non-discrimination".

The second half of this article describes it better: How ‘Equality Act’ Would Impose Transgender Ideology on Everyone

Much of what it talks about with sex change/gender reassignment surgeries can be explained far better by this talk. I already have the talk on CD, which is far harder to share in this online format. If any of you are interested, this blend of theology & medicine is explained exceptionally well in this talk, citing & critically analyzing medical research along the way. Give me time to find something I can share that doesn't cost anything, but anyone interested enough in a plastic surgeon & Catholic deacon beautifully explain the transgender issue, this is well worth the few dollars it charges. In any case, it comes with a 5 minute preview that explains a bit on how this "non-discrimination" legislation discriminates against those of us with theological viewpoints.

Transgenderism: A Surgeon's Perspective - Dr. Patrick Lappert


Regarding most of the posts from about halfway through Page 2....

It's times like this when I wonder...was it a good idea to start the thread at all? I wanted to start an informative thread & an intelligent discussion. The initial comments compelled me to go deeper, and after scouring articles for one that quotes the Equality Act, I gained a deeper understanding of similar legislation & the implications thereof. I never intended this to fall apart, as some of this discussion is doing. So many people accusing each other of not reading the legislation, without ever quoting the legislation to support what they mean. When God talks about regretting what He created, starting online discussions gives us a much better understanding of what He meant...

 

[Yttrium]

So many people accusing each other of not reading the legislation, without ever quoting the legislation to support what they mean.

No, SilverBear is accusing Aldebaran of not reading the legislation. That's not "so many people". And what could SilverBear possibly quote, when Alebaran is claiming that there are things in the legislation that aren't there?

 

[Steve11987]

Fair point; let me explain a little more.

I am trained in first aid. I can apply tourniquets, a first-aid procedure that is only good to do in very limited circumstances. While I voluntarily took the training to do this, there may come a time when I refuse a tourniquet to someone, on the grounds that it is an overly drastic procedure for what the person is suffering. The same could be said of the aforementioned procedures; an abortion doctor or sex change doctor may be willing to do their procedures on a variety of people, but some cases, may tell the person that they are not in a state where the procedure would be a good idea.

Does this make sense? I know how to apply sex changes/abortions/tourniquets, but in specific circumstances, I may use my professional judgement to decide against it for a patient who wants it. This is especially pertinent with adolescents who want sex changes; speaking as someone who suffered from gender confusion in my teenage years, I'm exceptionally thankful that I was not in an environment of people who would encourage me to go through with a drastic procedure. A sex change doctor may believe they should only perform on adults, but with the demands of the Equality Act, a struggling teen may demand a sex change that the doctor believes should not be performed at that age, and the professional judgement is nullified in favor of "non-discrimination".

The second half of this article describes it better: How ‘Equality Act’ Would Impose Transgender Ideology on Everyone

Much of what it talks about with sex change/gender reassignment surgeries can be explained far better by this talk. I already have the talk on CD, which is far harder to share in this online format. If any of you are interested, this blend of theology & medicine is explained exceptionally well in this talk, citing & critically analyzing medical research along the way. Give me time to find something I can share that doesn't cost anything, but anyone interested enough in a plastic surgeon & Catholic deacon beautifully explain the transgender issue, this is well worth the few dollars it charges. In any case, it comes with a 5 minute preview that explains a bit on how this "non-discrimination" legislation discriminates against those of us with theological viewpoints.

Transgenderism: A Surgeon's Perspective - Dr. Patrick Lappert


Regarding most of the posts from about halfway through Page 2....

It's times like this when I wonder...was it a good idea to start the thread at all? I wanted to start an informative thread & an intelligent discussion. The initial comments compelled me to go deeper, and after scouring articles for one that quotes the Equality Act, I gained a deeper understanding of similar legislation & the implications thereof. I never intended this to fall apart, as some of this discussion is doing. So many people accusing each other of not reading the legislation, without ever quoting the legislation to support what they mean. When God talks about regretting what He created, starting online discussions gives us a much better understanding of what He meant...

I dunno, it just seems to me that if you're a doctor who specializes in abortion or sex changes you have committed yourself to doing those surgeries, which both could easily be problems for Christians, right? If you don't want to do those procedures just get out of that field (which I can't believe that a believer would get into anyway) and let nonbelievers perform them.

I can see a problem with a Christian who owns a cake store not wanting to do cakes for gay weddings. But I don't see that it can't easily be remedied. All the baker has to say is that he has a competitor who will gladly bake cakes for gay weddings and point the customer to them. The only problem that would come up is if the gays feel offended and want to push the issue. And then a Christian living in this world is expected to run into these kinds of situations and maybe they need to just bite the bullet and make the cake. To cry and scream and throw a fit is not what a Christian should do at all, IMO. There is some suffering that a true Christian will face in this world and that suffering often builds character instead of belly aching about every perceived slight or unfairness.

 

[Aldebaran]

and you have avoided reading the legislation itself

Are you ever going to answer the question I asked you, or are you going to continue with your accusations?

Is there something in the legislation that says that no laws can be passed in the future to alter what would be law if this bill were passed? If so, post it here so we can all see it.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

How in the world can a law change what a religious person believes? That doesn't sound like something that's possible in theory, much less what this act proposes.

You are correct that the belief itself held by the person cannot necessarily be changed; but it is possible to demand compliance in performance of some act despite a religious belief. It was so important that this not happen, the freedom to practice one's religion unencumbered is enshrined in our Constitution.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I dunno, it just seems to me that if you're a doctor who specializes in abortion or sex changes you have committed yourself to doing those surgeries, which both could easily be problems for Christians, right? If you don't want to do those procedures just get out of that field (which I can't believe that a believer would get into anyway) and let nonbelievers perform them.

I can see a problem with a Christian who owns a cake store not wanting to do cakes for gay weddings. But I don't see that it can't easily be remedied. All the baker has to say is that he has a competitor who will gladly bake cakes for gay weddings and point the customer to them. The only problem that would come up is if the gays feel offended and want to push the issue. And then a Christian living in this world is expected to run into these kinds of situations and maybe they need to just bite the bullet and make the cake. To cry and scream and throw a fit is not what a Christian should do at all, IMO. There is some suffering that a true Christian will face in this world and that suffering often builds character instead of belly aching about every perceived slight or unfairness.

No one "cried and screamed and threw a fit" at all. That's a perplexing statement. Declining an event is not any of those things. The customers simply wouldn't let it go, and rushed to file a complaint because the baker was honest, and said he did not do certain events (halloween, divorce parties, same sex weddings - which were not even a thing at at the time).

He could have just lied about it and said he was booked, as less ethical people would do. But he simply said he didn't do that event. A normal person would simply thank him and move on. It's not like there weren't dozens of other bakeries who do.