Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[calmcoolandelected]

Mine starts with, "Preface."






That's the key.

Some will find the truth.

Others will not.

God knows who is true.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 (New International Version)
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."



​

Now if there were only one organized Church over all? To tell all under it they must conform to the same things? How could God sort out those whom he approves of, from those whom he does not?

It is God who desires there to be differences made manifest. That way, the free stay free, and those who desire error, are to reap what they sow amongst themselves. Forced together? The free are not able to be free. Or, those who desire error are not free to be wrong. God does not want both together agreeing on the same things. Each is to find his own place. Just as each one of us are to be evaluated before the LORD, alone. Not as a Church. God would prefer all were one and in agreement. But, giving man free will in the midsts of spiritual warfare will have its vistors, and losers. So, God allows for different church organizations to exist. That way, each one can realize his choice. Then, at the evaluation we all answer to God. Those who were led of the Spirit? They will end up finding the good churches.

James 4:6 niv
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."


​

That passage speaks of believers. Two types. There can not be one Church for both types.






God allows each generation to either reap what they sow, or to reap what he has sown.




God has given us the freedom to dissaociate from the federal governing body if we discern it has become corrupt. That is why we have both the right to bear arms, and were supposed to have state rights. The Inquisition in effect, was a corrupt federal governmental body gone haywire.




The Church in this case is a chosen body of believers given the gift to teach, and are being filled and led by the Spirit of God. In turn, religious leaders also know the Word of God. But, they are not led of the Spirit. Its intellectual prowess that allows for this knowledge. Just like some hold great knowledge in physics. Its all academic, not truly spiritual.

Same held true in Jesus day. The religious leaders had great knowledge of words to be found in the Bible. But, they did not have the life needed to see the correct application.

So... What may have been a great start in the early years of the Church later on became corrupt with compromises and influences from paganism. As a result, God at times had certain men break free. A good number were killed by what was called the Church for that reason. One man I learned about , John Huss, was a prime example of how corrupt the Church had become at that point in time.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html

The leadership of the Church had become a new breed of Pharisee who now used the name of Christ instead of Moses, claiming they had the fathers of the Church, just like the religious leaders claimed Abraham to be their father. There is nothing new under the sun...

In Christ, GeneZ

"you must spread some reputation around before giving to Genez again."

CC&E

 

[GenemZ]

Ok, then the Bible is the Constitution and the Church is the Supreme Court, which is the final arbiter of the law, so the Church is the final arbiter of scripture.

You just tried to Deify the Church with that remark! Its the Godhead who is the Supreme Court. Not the Church! You just put the pants on the Bride, and made the LORD wear a dress. It does not work that way.

If a Church goes apostate? They are to be the Supreme Court? No! God in Heaven is our Supreme Court!

Whoops, lets not forget it is the Supreme Court (i.e. the Church) decides what is in "harmony" not the words of the Constitution itself.

That is upsurping the Authority God's. Only having a Church leadership that is Spirit filled, will reveal what God says is to be genuine. For the Spirit is the Mind of Christ.

Problem is, power crazed men in the past who used the influence of religion to gain the ascendency over their fellow men, who the see as needing to be put in their place. They can proclaim to be the Church, and are not. That is why God always will have Spirit filled men being raised up and available to break lose from their tyranny, just like God had prophets break lose when the nation of Israel's spiritual leadership had gone apostate.

Ephesians 1:22 niv
"And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church."


Colossians 1:18 niv
"And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy."






​

Churches that think they are to be the Supreme Court over Bible interpretation are only exposing themselves for being wrongly motivated. Not Spirit filled.

These are ones possessing a trait of human good, motivated by a power drive with the desire to tell people how to live. Liberal's and socialists reveal this tendency to be found in certain homo sapiens. Some find an outlet in the political power that religion offers. Their personality has an affinity for religion. If this was another era, they would have found their way to power as pagan priests. They are with us today. They play the game to find a way to gain in power and influence. Just as the pagan priests found a way to the top. But, today they must wear the garb of Christ to do their desire.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 (New International Version)
"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."





​

These type are with us today. Where are they?

They are to be found in any denomination suited for such a way to work its way in. Who are they? Only Sola Scriptura will shine the light upon these Emperors with no clothes. One hint? They hate the concept of Sola Scriptura and sound exegesis. For, it makes them sweat and work hard for the money. For its more difficult to twist the truth and cover one's trail, than it is to discover the truth and be set free.

Yet? Just as Hitler had his blind followers? Suicide cults have their blind followers? Islamic suicide bombers are blind followers? Each false religious leader will have a segment of people who will be attracted to what they offer. They will have a following.

The corrections they receive from the outside are given so that when they stand before the Lord at the Evaluation of the saints. They will be found to be without excuse for their being denied the Eternal rewards and glories that will be held back from them. God sends correction to correct. But many refuse the correction. So, God sends correction as to leave some believers to be without excuse, because God knows their heart is set against what the truth is.

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."






​

These debates serve several purposes. It helps those who are new in the faith and are being bombarded with denominational propaganda. Bombarded in attempts to get them to submit to their dogma.

It builds up those who have the witness of The Spirit in their hearts, and need now to see the Scriptural justifications and reasons why such false teachings are to exist, and what's wrong with them.

And, it serves as a warning to those believers who will lose all Eternal rewards (crowns) and be deprived of special glories to be bestowed upon those who are proven to be faithful to grow in grace and the knowledge of God's Word.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (New International Version)
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."






​

As you can read. Bad works does not cause the believer to lose their salvation! It causes a loss of rewards being held now in escrow in Heaven.

he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."






​

He will lose certain blessings and glories. The power to greater experience the fullness of Eternity. For if he can not be trusted now with the written Word? How can be be trusted in having a possession in the partaking in the power and life to be shared by the Living Word? Christ Jesus!

Our reward in Heaven will be ones of intimate contact with partaking of Christ (for we are the Bride). God is now weeding out those who can not be trusted with such power.

Because of that, God now he allows believers the freedom to chose whom they will serve. God? Religion? Man? In the Evaluation of the saints this will be all sorted out. Many will be saved as one whom is running from a burning home. For all he chose for was not of the LORD. He will suffer the loss of all he was to possess. Except, his very soul.

he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."






​

We all who believe in Christ will be in Heaven. No matter how wrong we decide to choose in how we think we should serve God.

he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."






​

Not all will be granted the honor to know Christ in a deeper way. For, in time, not all wanted to know Christ through his Word in a deeper way. These chose the traditions of men over the mandates of God. Such it will be.

John 1:1 niv
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."






​

That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.

This debate is not a verbal chess game as some see it to be. Its a matter of life, or dead works.

In Christ, GeneZ





​

 

[GenemZ]

There is not a Christian tradition that has entirely clean hands when it comes to the charge of legalism, oppression, and abuse.

So? We will have idiots spiritually, and the spiritually alive. Both, exposed to the same excellent tradition. Does that mean the tradition failed?

Same argument could be used against the Word of God itself!

Romans 9:6 niv
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.


​

You seem to be trying to say, that the only good tradition should be made idiot proof. That it can only be followed one way and correctly. We have men involved! Men with volitions! Some will choose life. Others? Dead works.

If the perfect Word of God will still leave us with unbelievers? How can you place tradition of such a high plane as you have? It makes no sense to try and do that. Of course traditions will not guarantee the results it desires. That does not mean tradition does not have clean hands. You can place soap in the rest room. That does not guarantee all will clean their hands after using the toilet. That means there is something wrong with the soap?

If not? Why even ask what you did?

There is not a Christian tradition that has entirely clean hands when it comes to the charge of legalism, oppression, and abuse.

The Word of God, of grace and truth, is used by some for legalism, oppresion, and abuse in the wrong hands. That means Scripture does not have clean hands?

Where are we? What page? What was your point? Are you making following sound tradition into a legal matter? Making the Church into tradition-police?


Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[xapis]

This debate is not a verbal chess game as some see it to be. Its a matter of life, or dead works.

If it were a chess match, you could say checkmate here... but you're right. It's so much more than that.

 

[ETide]

How is your flawed interpretation in any way inseparable from the tradition/construct through which you view scripture?
I'd hazard that it is not in any way separable.

Because scripture remains pure and flawless regardless of how diligent or negligent I am in studying.

Many aspects of the scriptures are easily taken in and digested.. other portions demand detailed study and care.. and of course one must be born of the Spirit, having Christ within them (as scripture is spiritually discerned..although the carnal mind can also grasp basic aspects of its contents).. and His Spirit should not be grieved or quenched.. as then we resort back to the carnal..

So imo, it's not some contstruct that is governing these things.. but my fellowship in Christ and the effort which I am willing to engage in studying His word.

I'll respond to your other comments in another post.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

So? We will have idiots spiritually, and the spiritually alive. Both, exposed to the same excellent tradition. Does that mean the tradition failed?

Same argumnet could be used against the Word of God itself!

Romans 9:6 niv
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

​

You seem to be trying to say, that the only good tradition should be made idiot proof. That it can only be followed one way and correctly. We have men involved! Men with volitions! Some will choose life. Others? Dead works.

If the perfect Word of God will still leave us with unbelievers? How can you place tradition of such a high plane as you have? It makes no sense to try and do that. Of course traditions will not guarantee the results it desires. That does not mean tradition does not have clean hands. You can place soap in the rest room. That does not guarantee all will clean their hands after using the toilet. That means there is something wrong with the soap?

If not? Why even ask what you did?



The Word of God, of grace and truth, is used by some for legalism, oppresion, and abuse in the wrong hands. That means Scripture does not have clean hands?

Where are we? What page? What was your point? Make following sound tradition, a legal matter? Make the Church into tradition-police?


Grace and truth, GeneZ

CC&E

 

[calmcoolandelected]

[/font]

Because scripture remains pure and flawless regardless of how diligent or negligent I am in studying.

Many aspects of the scriptures are easily taken in and digested.. other portions demand detailed study and care.. and of course one must be born of the Spirit, having Christ within them (as scripture is spiritually discerned..although the carnal mind can also grasp basic aspects of its contents).. and His Spirit should not be grieved or quenched.. as then we resort back to the carnal..

So imo, it's not some contstruct that is governing these things.. but my fellowship in Christ and the effort which I am willing to engage in studying His word.

I'll respond to your other comments in another post.

Exactly. We will be held responsible for how we study Scripture. The Bible also says that God holds those in authority to a higher standard and they will be judged accordingly. (Will happily look up the verses later, have to go pick up my daughter from ballet.)

CC&E

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

So? We will have idiots spiritually, and the spiritually alive. Both, exposed to the same excellent tradition. Does that mean the tradition failed?

No, it does not- which makes one wonder why you make a habit of bringing charges against Catholics for misdeeds done among by those associated with their tradition.

 

[xapis]

Exactly. We will be held responsible for how we study Scripture. The Bible also says that God holds those in authority to a higher standard and they will be judged accordingly. (Will happily look up the verses later, have to go pick up my daughter from ballet.)

CC&E

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." —Lk. 12:48b

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

[/font]

Because scripture remains pure and flawless regardless of how diligent or negligent I am in studying.

Just like the straight edge in my tool box is reliable. You still use said straight edge with the hands and eyes that God has given you, and so we're back to your construct.

Many aspects of the scriptures are easily taken in and digested.. other portions demand detailed study and care.. and of course one must be born of the Spirit, having Christ within them (as scripture is spiritually discerned..although the carnal mind can also grasp basic aspects of its contents).. and His Spirit should not be grieved or quenched.. as then we resort back to the carnal..

So imo, it's not some contstruct that is governing these things.. but my fellowship in Christ and the effort which I am willing to engage in studying His word.

I'll respond to your other comments in another post.

The construct through which you view scripture is the sum total of your life experience, your prejudices, the values of your nation and era, the influences of your peers, the interpretive tradition that you have read from- to deny such influences is to be either intellectually dishonest or misinformed.

Translators read through constructs, and I will prove it. Now, in the Greek manuscripts, originally there was no punctuation. It has been inserted in accordance with rules of English grammar. Now let's look at how the KJV translators handled a certain portion of scripture, and how their placement of a comma reflects their presupposition regarding ministry work:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Now, the placement of punctuation in this verse between saints and "for the work of the ministry" is what my Baptist friend calls 'the unfortunate comma.' You see, we in this rendering have the pastors and teachers perfecting the saints, doing the work of the ministry, and edifying the Body.

Watch how the NASB handles this:

for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Some several hundred years later, deeper into Reformation, the view is that the saints (regular folks) do the work of ministry. That was not the view in 1611, and thus the reading was rendered in the Protestant translation thusly.

It is subtleties that shape our view of ourselves, and God, and ministry, so each of us responds to scripture through the constructs of which I have spoken.

Holy Tradition is a meta-construct, one that is organic and dynamic, not static, but one that transcends ethnicity and historical era.

 

[xapis]

Some several hundred years later, deeper into Reformation, the view is that the saints (regular folks) do the work of ministry. That was not the view in 1611, and thus the reading was rendered in the Protestant translation thusly.

The Douay-Rheims translation handles the punctuation in the same manner as the NASB.

 

[ETide]

Just like the straight edge in my tool box is reliable. You still use said straight edge with the hands and eyes that God has given you, and so we're back to your construct.

You're using a lifeless object to describe the scriptures, which are living and powerful, and able to speak to the heart of man in a dynamic way.. again, it's a unique situation which involves a person with the Spirit of Christ living within them, and that Spirit affording the fellowship and connection with the author of that living and effectual word.

The construct through which you view scripture is the sum total of your life experience, your prejudices, the values of your nation and era, the influences of your peers, the interpretive tradition that you have read from- to deny such influences is to be either intellectually dishonest or misinformed.

I'm simply going to have to agree to disagree.

It's fellowship in God the Father and in His Son our Lord Jesus Christ through the Spirit of God dwelling within us. Without His Spirit, we're not connected with Him and therefore there's no fellowship..

That's the enormity and beauty of the Christian life, and it's still a mystery to many.. Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Translators read through constructs, and I will prove it. Now, in the Greek manuscripts, originally there was no punctuation. It has been inserted in accordance with rules of English grammar. Now let's look at how the KJV translators handled a certain portion of scripture, and how their placement of a comma reflects their presupposition regarding ministry work:

God's ability to speak to His creatures is not dependent upon a translation.. but a relation-ship.. a connection with heaven.

To turn the Christian life into a life of constructs through manuscripts and translations, completely misses the simplicity and power of the connection between God and man.. there's nothing complicated about it.. it's as simple and precious as a Father in love with His Son, and accepting us as His children when we believe that He gave Himself for us.. the Just for the unjust, to bring us back together, reconciling us to Himself through that perfect work of redemption, on that nearby hill we know and love, called Calvary.

 

[Lynn73]

"you must spread some reputation around before giving to Genez again."

CC&E

Same here! I would click the rep thingie over and over if I could.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter

 

[ETide]

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter

We've been talking about Tradition and traditions.. I've been getting schooled on both actually..

Out of curiousity, what are your traditions, if you have any..?

 

[Trento]

​

These type are with us today. Where are they?

They are to be found in any denomination suited for such a way to work its way in. Who are they? Only Sola Scriptura will shine the light upon these Emperors with no clothes. One hint? They hate the concept of Sola Scriptura and sound exegesis. For, it makes them sweat and work hard for the money. For its more difficult to twist the truth and cover one's trail, than it is to discover the truth and be set free.



That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.

In Christ, GeneZ





​

What does Scripture preach? - the reality is that it is a collection of personal testimonies written by Holy men under the inspirationof the Holy Spirit thus inerrant and sacred to the Church.

- Scriptuire does not preach - it is a written reflection/record of what Apostles and others preached during that time when the revelation ("once given the saints")that was Jesus was passed down embodied in the Church by the Apostles

-Scripture whilst it does contain some emphatic clear statements does not answer back and as a result it cannot correct false conclusions - not by itself and not alone, as measured against what the Apostles understood.

Amongst the emphatic statements we find 75 definitions of "The Word of God" and that status goes to Apostolic teaching, liturgy, practices, authority etc; summed up as Apostolic Traditions. So surely rather than deciding what 'Scripture preaches" we need to know what did "The Word of God" tell us.

The practical reality when someone says "this is what Scripture says", really means 'this is what I understand and this passage seems to support this notion'.

Protestantism is not a definite faith and it is difficult for Catholics to debate with Protestants when there is such a diversity of belief - all based on "what the Scripture is supposed to say". So to ignore what the Apostles thus The Word of God taught, in favour of what Luther, Calvin, Wesley, White,ad infinitum devised from Scripture alone, is a traversity of subjective truth.

A cursory look at SDA, JW, Baptists, Lutherans,Quakers, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, Christedelphians, Plymoth Brethen, Methodists, Pentecostals, A.O.G. Revival Centres,UNiting, al those that come and go etc; for the next few thousand smorgasbords of belief - all claiming to strictly adhere to what "Scripture Preaches" renders it all of little credibility - and a rejection of God's Word.

In the area of Salvation - we have those who promote OSAS yes, those who reject it, those who say we are saved if we speak tongues, those who promote faith alone and those who say it cannot be alone, those who say it is by works, those who say a faith working in love, those who promote by election alone - so what is one to believe if one accepts your criteria??? All claiming the same inspired authority.

Scripture is authorative but not an authority as it cannot speak or be dogmatic. The Constitution of the USA is specifically written to serve as a clear dogmatic reference (unlike Scripture) yet we need Lawyers to discern it and others to rule on it - there has to be a Divinely delegated authority to make decisions on faith and morals or we have chaos as we see in multiplying Denominations.

In the OT there was such - Jesus endorsed this authority when He said that the Jews MUST obey those who sit on the seat of Moses as they have Divine authority. Jesus passed on all His authority to His Apostles to do whatever and they in turn set up sucession - Barnabas is an example.
The Word of God" unlike those who promote interpretation of Scripture alone - that thus rejects what Scripture itself defines as God's Word. Scripture should be seen in the light of Apostolic teaching and vice versa and there must be a DIvine duly appointed earthly authority as that is also clear in the sacred record we have of Christ's teaching.

 

[ETide]

That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.

Amen to that gene !

I try not to debate too much.. people's minds are usually made up anyway.. I simply like to share things and hopefully learn a little of how others feel as well.

God Bless !

 

[lionroar0]

Tradition wasn't declared equal to the Scriptures by the RCC until the Council of Trent in the 16th century... interestingly, that declaration is newer than Protestantism.

My question: What led to the RCC decision to declare Tradition equal to the Scriptures?

It wasn't a decision. The council was upholding what had previously being decided in the 7th Ecumunical council.

To summarize, we declare that we defend free from any innovations all the—written and—unwritten ecclesiastical traditions that have been entrusted to us

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/NICAEA2.HTM


Peace

 

[lionroar0]

That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.

I much rather find the Truth of the Living Word through the written word. Then finding the Truth about the written word.

Peace

 

[GenemZ]

If it were a chess match, you could say checkmate here... but you're right. It's so much more than that.

I do not see it that way.

There is a big difference between being unable to make a move. And, one of refusing to.

Grace and peace, GeneZ