Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[ETide]

He was referring to the traditions of the Jews. Not the Traditions from the apostles. There is a huge difference.

And yet there are still religious groups today.. much like the Pharisees.. who claim that they can see..

Not a whole lot has changed.. people are still asking if their traditions are equal to the word of God, which lives and abides for ever..

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Here's what the LORD has to say on the matter.. it's an example that still speaks volumes to this day..

And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

This scripture would apply if sacred tradition contradicted or watered down scripture. But in point of fact, it does not. Holy Tradition and Scripture are inextricably bound: One cannot read scripture without sound parameters by which to interpret it, and one cannot abide in Holy Tradition without obeying and 'eating' the scriptures it is comprised of.

You have misapplied this scripture, as many do. When Jesus says "hate your father and mother," sound exegesis leads the man or woman of God to understand that we are to chose God before any other. Jesus did not therein null and void the fifth commandment to honor parents.

So we receive this verse advisedly and figuratively.

Likewise, Jesus did not refute all tradition by identifying the problem with the Pharisees and their tradition. He did make it clear that tradition that steals from the heart of the Law is tradition that saps the life from the Law.

Holy Tradition is the reading of the whole counsel of God, not just scripture proof texts. Holy Tradition is the faith of the fathers and mothers passed down, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did.

Now, rather than further misapply scripture, perhaps you can be specific where tradition saps life from scripture. I don't see it.

 

[Asinner]

For the record.. What are your traditions..?

Prayer and fasting.

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Prayer and fasting.

God Bless

That's it ! ?

I acknowledge both of these from the scriptures.. I didn't need tradition to tell me these things..

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Isn't it ironic.. what we do have in the word of God, as contained within the scriptures.. that it can not be exhausted.. that it is living and powerful.. that it truly lives and abides for ever..

Is your tradition up to par with that..?

For the record.. What are your traditions..?

Ahhh...so you were dismissing the traditions without even knowing what they were- or, more precisely, what Asinner means by tradition.

So now you've asked- that's a step in the right direction.

We speak of Tradition, not traditions. We do not have a catechetical manual. HolY Tradition is in the worship of the Church. Our liturgy, which is comprised of scripture, is the reading of the verses and pericopes, placed into context, and validated scripturally. Regarding fasting, the week before great Lent there are scriptures read about fasting, with warnings about false fasting and showiness, or working for righteousness.

Rather than dismiss Orthodox tradition by proof texting our specific theological distinctives, do yourself a favor and attend a few liturgies. Don't go to look or disapprove- just LISTEN. Don't read along, listen. You will hear scripture, scripture, scripture, worship worship worship, and holiness, holiness, holiness.

"My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" said the prophet, and said Christ. Orthodox tradition is a collection of prayers, an organic collection of high praise to our God, one not dependent on tangential definitions, but upon the witness of the Church over time and geography.

 

[ETide]

This scripture would apply if sacred tradition contradicted or watered down scripture. But in point of fact, it does not. Holy Tradition and Scripture are inextricably bound: One cannot read scripture without sound parameters by which to interpret it, and one cannot abide in Holy Tradition without obeying and 'eating' the scriptures it is comprised of.

You have misapplied this scripture, as many do. When Jesus says "hate your father and mother," sound exegesis leads the man or woman of God to understand that we are to chose God before any other. Jesus did not therein null and void the fifth commandment to honor parents.

So we receive this verse advisedly and figuratively.

Likewise, Jesus did not refute all tradition by identifying the problem with the Pharisees and their tradition. He did make it clear that tradition that steals from the heart of the Law is tradition that saps the life from the Law.

Holy Tradition is the reading of the whole counsel of God, not just scripture proof texts. Holy Tradition is the faith of the fathers and mothers passed down, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did.

Now, rather than further misapply scripture, perhaps you can be specific where tradition saps life from scripture. I don't see it.

I have simply offered comments from our Lord Jesus Christ which spoke directly to the point that tradition of men can (and often do) make the word of God of none effect..

NOW, we haven't even begun to list what these traditions might be.. nor did I APPLY this scripture to any person that might hold to tradition.. yet.. we'll see if that happens..

Perhaps you'll list some of your holy traditions as you call them.. and we can see if any of these make the word of God of none effect..

So far I was told that prayer and fasting are traditions.. although prayer and fasting are clear scriptural principles..

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

That's it ! ?

I acknowledge both of these from the scriptures.. I didn't need tradition to tell me these things..

It's not just the telling, it's the doing. It's not just you or I doing them, it's us. It's not done for the sake of self-righteousness, but out of obligation to and love of the Savior. It's not just seat of the pants, it's all of us doing and saying the same things, mutually submitted, worshipping God as a body.

To the extent that other traditions do these things, we commend them.

 

[ETide]

Ahhh...so you were dismissing the traditions without even knowing what they were- or, more precisely, what Asinner means by tradition.

So now you've asked- that's a step in the right direction.

We speak of Tradition, not traditions. We do not have a catechetical manual. HolY Tradition is in the worship of the Church. Our liturgy, which is comprised of scripture, is the reading of the verses and pericopes, placed into context, and validated scripturally. Regarding fasting, the week before great Lent there are scriptures read about fasting, with warnings about false fasting and showiness, or working for righteousness.

Rather than dismiss Orthodox tradition by proof texting our specific theological distinctives, do yourself a favor and attend a few liturgies. Don't go to look or disapprove- just LISTEN. Don't read along, listen. You will hear scripture, scripture, scripture, worship worship worship, and holiness, holiness, holiness.

"My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" said the prophet, and said Christ. Orthodox tradition is a collection of prayers, an organic collection of high praise to our God, one not dependent on tangential definitions, but upon the witness of the Church over time and geography.

.. the question this thread asks is if tradition is equal to scripture.. with that I would absolutely disagree.. but as for your traditional doings.. it doesn't matter a whole lot to me.. in my estimation, the church of God has quite a liberty in many things.. although I'd still be careful in that..

Scripture can not be exhausted.. if you hold the same value to your tradition, then that's your choice.. imo, they're not even close..

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I have simply offered comments from our Lord Jesus Christ which spoke directly to the point that tradition of men can (and often do) make the word of God of none effect..

NOW, we haven't even begun to list what these traditions might be.. nor did I APPLY this scripture to any person that might hold to tradition.. yet.. we'll see if that happens..

Perhaps you'll list some of your holy traditions as you call them.. and we can see if any of these make the word of God of none effect..

So far I was told that prayer and fasting are traditions.. although prayer and fasting are clear scriptural principles..

You nearly got the point there. Tradition (not traditions) is scriptural principle.

 

[ETide]

It's not just the telling, it's the doing. It's not just you or I doing them, it's us. It's not done for the sake of self-righteousness, but out of obligation to and love of the Savior. It's not just seat of the pants, it's all of us doing and saying the same things, mutually submitted, worshipping God as a body.

To the extent that other traditions do these things, we commend them.

So what are you implying.. that others pray or fast in ways that are inapropriate as you see it in your tradition ?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

.. the question this thread asks is if tradition is equal to scripture.. with that I would absolutely disagree.. but as for your traditional doings.. it doesn't matter a whole lot to me.. in my estimation, the church of God has quite a liberty in many things.. although I'd still be careful in that..

Scripture can not be exhausted.. if you hold the same value to your tradition, then that's your choice.. imo, they're not even close..

"imo"...
How can you have an opinion on something you're admittedly ignorant of?

We have stated that scripture and tradition are not equal, for equal implies separation.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

So what are you implying.. that others pray or fast in ways that are inapropriate as you see it in your tradition ?

It is not my concern to judge other traditions. I said, paraphrasing now, that to the degree that other traditions hold fast to the value of prayer in humility, with devotion, together in unity, with intenmtion and love of the Savior, we commend them.

How is that deeming others "inappropriate?"

 

[ETide]

"imo"...
How can you have an opinion on something you're admittedly ignorant of?

We have stated that scripture and tradition are not equal, for equal implies separation.

I'm quite aware of the emphasis which our Lord Jesus Christ placed on tradition making the word of God of none effect... that's not ignorance.. it's scriptural precedent..

So far I've heard prayer and fasting as tradition..yet these are scriptural principles which do not require support from any inseparable aspect of tradition.. as you believe they are..

Scripture and tradition are obviously separable.. for tradition made the word of God of none effect.. that's not inseparable.. unless perhaps you'd like to suggest cause and effect..

 

[ETide]

It is not my concern to judge other traditions. I said, paraphrasing now, that to the degree that other traditions hold fast to the value of prayer in humility, with devotion, together in unity, with intenmtion and love of the Savior, we commend them.

How is that deeming others "inappropriate?"

So your method or tradition has nothing to do others.. although scripture is obviously important to both of us..

So your tradition matters none..

Scriptures matters to an infinite degree..

 

[Asinner]

I have simply offered comments from our Lord Jesus Christ which spoke directly to the point that tradition of men can (and often do) make the word of God of none effect..

NOW, we haven't even begun to list what these traditions might be.. nor did I APPLY this scripture to any person that might hold to tradition.. yet.. we'll see if that happens..

Perhaps you'll list some of your holy traditions as you call them.. and we can see if any of these make the word of God of none effect..

So far I was told that prayer and fasting are traditions.. although prayer and fasting are clear scriptural principles..

Our praxis on prayer and fasting is hourly, daily, weekly, monthy, yearly . . . living in the liturgical cycles of the Church. At 6 am, our morning prayer, is said with the rising sun which signifies Christ, the Light, coming into the world. At 9 am we remember the Holy Spirit which descended on the Church at this hour. At 12, we remember Christ crucified, for at this hour he hung on the cross until 3 pm when we remember His death. Wednesdays we pray and fast for this is the day our Lord was betrayed and Friday we fast because on this day our Lord was crucified. The whole Church prays together, we fast together, we mourn together and rejoice together on Sunday when we celebrate our risen Lord and what He accomplished. We remember all those saints who came before us and every day is devoted to these martyrs and confessors who suffered for Christ and whose blood the Church of Christ is continually being built upon. There is much much more to the liturgical cycle of the Church. I have only touched the surface . . .

God Bless

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

The reason the Catholic Church defined such a doctrine is because Luther had opposed it. In exactly the same way that the Extraordinary Magisterium had no need to define the Divinity of Christ until people started disagreeing with it, it had no need to define the truth that has been believed since the beginning that Tradtion and Scripture are equal.

No significant heresy has yet arisen that states Satan does not exist...therefore the Church has not yet officially defined the existence of Satan. The teaching authority of the Extraordinary Magisterium, excercised in infallible papal declarations and Ecumenical Councils, is reactionary. The Truth has been revealed to us by Christ and there is no need to infallibly define it until someone (eg. a French Bishop, German monk, English king...) starts to disagree.

 

[ETide]

So here's the deal imo..

Your tradition has absolutely no bearing on others...

Scripture obviously does..

Therefore they're completely separable.. and not inseparable, as some have claimed.

 

[mesue]

...The Catholic Church, just as the Orthodox and Coptic churches... believes that Tradition is inspired by God and thus, equal in authority to Scripture.

Here is what Jesus, God, said about tradition:

Matthew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Asinner]

Here is what Jesus, God, said about tradition:

He also said 2 Thess 2:Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

and


Matt 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

and


John 21:And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen

and


Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full (2 Jn. 1:12).

and


Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and even as I delivered to you, ye are holding fast the traditions (1 Cor. 11:2).

God Bless







.

 

[mesue]

He also said 2 Thess 2:Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

and


Matt 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

and


John 21:And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen

and


Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full (2 Jn. 1:12).

and


Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and even as I delivered to you, ye are holding fast the traditions (1 Cor. 11:2).

God Bless







.

Jesus was speaking to man's tradition, the additional burden the Pharisees were placing on the people in Matthew 15.
Tradition, the law and not man's, was to bring us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We're no longer under "tradition" of any sort.