Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

racer · Jul 22, 2006

Theophorus said:
So you don't know. Thx for being honest.

No, thank you! for reminding me that some people are not in the practice of discerning the meaning of written information without an "interpreting authority" to spell it out for them.

I just keep forgetting that this weakness in some people does not impede their ability to twist the words of others beyond the point of irrecognition. I'll try to be more clear and explicit with you from now on.

racer · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
No, thank you! for reminding me that some people are not in the practice of discerning the meaning of written information without an "interpreting authority" to spell it out for them.

I just keep forgetting that this weakness in some people does not impede their ability to twist the words of others beyond that of recognition. I'll try to be more clear and explicit with you from now on.

However, exposing to this highly develop knack for twisting virtually any comment to such an extreme and contorted view, helps me to understand how they can distort scripture so profusely.

racer · Jul 22, 2006

JCrawf said:
The Catholic position doesn't say that immersion is wrong, though. Whether immersion, pouring, or sprinking, the main aspect is that it indicates an infusion of the Holy Spirit (an outward sign of the inward grace, so to speak).

Asinner,

I am readdressing this for you. I realize you are Orthodox. But, JCrawf's response here shows that not even the RCC considers the method of baptism to be Holy Tradition when arguing dipping/pouring/sprinkling.

Where baptism is clearly and explicitly biblical, the method's have become traditional in nature.

racer · Jul 22, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
I think that it is self apparent that you must do something,

Mike,

I know you're not arguing in favor of works, and I understand you point. I'm just using this statement to make my point. Yes, we must do something and we know exactly what that is--those who are adherents to Sola Scriptura that is. What is it? This:

Jhn 6:28; Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29; Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

edie19 · Jul 22, 2006

ETide said:
AMEN,

Anyone else..?

Anyone willing to say whether or not that they ARE, or ARE NOT working for their salvation..?

I am not - my works are the fruit (result) of my salvation - which has been complete in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior.

WarriorAngel · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
Asinner,

I am readdressing this for you. I realize you are Orthodox. But, JCrawf's response here shows that not even the RCC considers the method of baptism to be Holy Tradition when arguing dipping/pouring/sprinkling.

Where baptism is clearly and explicitly biblical, the method's have become traditional in nature.

Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
Where baptism is clearly and explicitly biblical, the method's have become traditional in nature.

While SOME Christians make much of the very limited and often unclear EXAMPLES of Christian baptism (largely in Acts) found in the Bible - I think this is often pressed too far and not all accept that customs found in the Bible are normative. And while SOME Christians make much of the literal meaning of the word "baptize" - especially in classicial Greek - such seems controversal at best and largely moot - the original origins of a word don't often carry great significance.

I agree with racer here. THAT we should baptize and be baptized is clearly Scriptural. HOW - the mode, the process, the customs involved - seems largely a matter of custom. Those of an anabaptist tradition are simply embracing a different tradition (and, in this case, Tradition) than other Christians. Customs can vary among us, IMHO.

- Josiah

.

Lynn73 · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
Mike,

I know you're not arguing in favor of works, and I understand you point. I'm just using this statement to make my point. Yes, we must do something and we know exactly what that is--those who are adherents to Sola Scriptura that is. What is it? This:

Jhn 6:28; Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29; Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Question given and answered. If we believe on the One that was sent, some kind of action of the belief will follow as a resul of believing on the One sent.

FreeinChrist · Jul 22, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

I'll repost to point out something:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

So, how long are infants to fast? And if you made them fast, how do they take it?

WarriorAngel · Jul 22, 2006

The parents must fast for them........

Irenaeus

"And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" [John 3:5].. (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190])

Irenaeus

He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age. (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189])

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them. (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215])

Origen

Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248])

Cyprian

As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born. (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253])

Cyprian

If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another. (ibid., 64:5)

Ambrose

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one is excepted, not [even] the infant. (Abraham 1:3:21 [A.D. 387])

Gregory Nazianzen

Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit.Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith! (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388])

Gregory Nazianzen

"Well enough," some will say, "for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?" Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated. (ibid., 40:28)

John Chrysostom

You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members. (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian1:6:21 [A.D. 388])
Augustine

What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400])

Augustine

The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic. (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408])

Augustine

Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born. (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412])

Augustine

By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration. (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412])

Council of Carthage
Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [Northwest African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians. (Canon 7 [A.D. 401])

FreeinChrist · Jul 22, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
The parents must fast for them........

Irenaeus

"And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" [John 3:5].. (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190])

Irenaeus

He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age. (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189])

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them. (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215])

Origen

Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248])

Cyprian

As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born. (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253])

Cyprian

If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another. (ibid., 64:5)

Ambrose

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. No one is excepted, not [even] the infant. (Abraham 1:3:21 [A.D. 387])

Gregory Nazianzen

Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit.Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith! (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388])

Gregory Nazianzen

"Well enough," some will say, "for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?" Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated. (ibid., 40:28)

John Chrysostom

You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christs] members. (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian1:6:21 [A.D. 388])
Augustine

What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400])

Augustine

The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic. (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408])

Augustine

Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born. (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412])

Augustine

By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christs] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christs Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration. (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412])

Council of Carthage
Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [Northwest African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians. (Canon 7 [A.D. 401])

hmmmm....
Several of those quotes - the ones I squinted enough to read - don't support the idea of the parents doing tje fasting for them.
Augustine looks to be the only one who supports your statement....in that quote anyway.

Asinner · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
Asinner,

I am readdressing this for you. I realize you are Orthodox. But, JCrawf's response here shows that not even the RCC considers the method of baptism to be Holy Tradition when arguing dipping/pouring/sprinkling.

Where baptism is clearly and explicitly biblical, the method's have become traditional in nature.

Racer

After reading your post, the first thought I had was "Didache". Thank you WarriorAngel!

Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

God Bless

WarriorAngel · Jul 22, 2006

Asinner said:
Racer

After reading your post, the first thought I had was "Didache". Thank you WarriorAngel!

Didache;

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

God Bless

You are welcome.

hmmmm....
Several of those quotes - the ones I squinted enough to read - don't support the idea of the parents doing tje fasting for them.
Augustine looks to be the only one who supports your statement....in that quote anyway.

Well, the point is mostly that infants get baptized.....
so no, they dont have to fast, but the parents who stand up for them should prepare themselves.

Asinner · Jul 22, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
Well, the point is mostly that infants get baptized.....
so no, they dont have to fast, but the parents who stand up for them should prepare themselves.

Certainly the fasting requirements are different for infants/children and adults.

God Bless

Theophorus · Jul 22, 2006

ETide said:
I'm not understanding where you may trying to go with this.. because I mentioned that the church has its beginnings at Pentecost, and that we were once alienated from the life of God through dead works.. so how does the verse here in Heb 12 speak for or against that..?

I'm also curious now.. does the orthodox church teach that the church of God did not begin at Pentecost, but that it existed before that, perhaps as the Israel of God..?

The Fathers say that the Church started with the creation of the angels. That the Church is the kingdom of God, the heavenly Jerusalem. Some moanstics have extended this to the Trinity, since the Church is an expression of love, and God is love.

Theophorus · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
No, thank you! for reminding me that some people are not in the practice of discerning the meaning of written information without an "interpreting authority" to spell it out for them.

I just keep forgetting that this weakness in some people does not impede their ability to twist the words of others beyond the point of irrecognition. I'll try to be more clear and explicit with you from now on.

Theophorus · Jul 22, 2006

racer said:
However, exposing to this highly develop knack for twisting virtually any comment to such an extreme and contorted view, helps me to understand how they can distort scripture so profusely.

ETide · Jul 23, 2006

Theophorus said:
The Fathers say that the Church started with the creation of the angels. That the Church is the kingdom of God, the heavenly Jerusalem. Some moanstics have extended this to the Trinity, since the Church is an expression of love, and God is love.

The church of God is a wonderful study in scripture and it is fairly easy to see (imo) and teach that it is the Lamb's wife, the bride of Christ..

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the firstborn of the dead and its chief cornerstone.. disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God and precious..

It is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets.. it's a habitation of God through the Spirit..

God will ultimately present it to Himself as a glorious church without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing..

FreeinChrist · Jul 23, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
You are welcome.

Well, the point is mostly that infants get baptized.....
so no, they dont have to fast, but the parents who stand up for them should prepare themselves.

Then you were not addressing the point I made with those quotes - they didn't say the parents should fast for the children.

Theophorus · Jul 23, 2006

ETide said:
The church of God is a wonderful study in scripture and it is fairly easy to see (imo) and teach that it is the Lamb's wife, the bride of Christ..

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the firstborn of the dead and its chief cornerstone.. disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God and precious..

It is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets.. it's a habitation of God through the Spirit..

God will ultimately present it to Himself as a glorious church without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing..

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Moses was in the Church/kingdom as well as Elijah. The understanding of the angels being a part of this nation to which we are reconciled/grafted on, can be seen in the tabernacle and temple, which the Church continued. There are a lot of Jewish traditions in the Church. This is understandible given how they saw themselves and the church, and explains their susceptibility to" judiazers".

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