Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[Asinner]

You know, I for one AM HOME. I am a citizen of heaven, indwelled by the Holy Spirit and part of His church.

IMHO, to imply I or others are not home is offensive to me.

It is an Orthodox saying. I am sorry you find it offensive.

God Bless

 

[FreeinChrist]

It is an Orthodox saying. I am sorry you find it offensive.

God Bless

Yes, I know it is an Orthodox saying.

 

[ETide]

Christian teachings for 2000 years disagree with your perspective. Here is just one example:


They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the Kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who have fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the Kingdom of God. For, he said, before a man bears the Name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead, and come out of it alive. (A document known as The Shepherd of Hermas was written about A.D. 100, about ten years after the repose of the Apostle John)


God Bless

The word of God teaches us that the holy Spirit is the seal.. not water as you suggest..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:13-14)

and..

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph 4:29-30)

 

[racer]

Racer,

You are the one being vague. You quoted scripture on baptism, yet failed to give your interpretation of them. Why don't we start there.

God Bless

I said one of us (that means you or me) is not understanding the other. So, if I am being vague then just maybe I'm not understanding what you want to know.

Clearly, one of has lost track of how this discussion came about, or one of us never got the gist of what was being discussed corret.

If memory serves me correctly, you asserted that Scripture did establish "how" we are baptised. I, in turn, asserted that it did, though it may not be explict, Baptism by immersion can be gleened from Scripture. I quoted verses from which "immersion" would be inferred. I also showed where Greek for "baptism" is "Baptizo" (the word used in Scripture) means to immerse or dip.

This is why I assert Scripture does cover the how. Never did I say it explicitly covered it, only that it did. So, you are going to have to be a little more explicit as to what exactly you want me to say or the discussion is over.

You've given no input or interpretation of your own. So, is this a discussion or a "question and answer" session? You being the one asking and me being the one expected to answer.

Quit fishing and just ask me what you want to know.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You know, I for one AM HOME. I am a citizen of heaven, indwelled by the Holy Spirit and part of His church.

IMHO, to imply I or others are not home is offensive to me.

What exact way do you know you have the Spirit indwelled?

 

[Asinner]

The word of God teaches us that the holy Spirit is the seal.. not water as you suggest..

These also, then, who have fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the Kingdom of God.

God Bless

 

[FreeinChrist]

The word of God teaches us that the holy Spirit is the seal.. not water as you suggest..

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:13-14)

and..

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Eph 4:29-30)

And it is the spiritual baptism of the Holy spirit by which one is regenerated, born again.

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

The "washing" is not with water.

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

 

[xapis]

What exact way do you know you have the Spirit indwelled?

What kind of question is this? ...really?

 

[ETide]

These also, then, who have fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the Kingdom of God.

God Bless

So we have scripture which clearly affirms that we are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, until the redemption.. which is still future..

Paul writes it this way in 1 Cor..

Now He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

It's clear that God is sealing us with His Spirit.. not men, as we are born again by GOD.. not through the will of the flesh, or of man, but of GOD.

 

[Asinner]

I said one of us (that means you or me) is not understanding the other. So, if I am being vague then just maybe I'm not understanding what you want to know.

Clearly, one of has lost track of how this discussion came about, or one of us never got the gist of what was being discussed corret.

If memory serves me correctly, you asserted that Scripture did establish "how" we are baptised. I, in turn, asserted that it did, though it may not be explict, Baptism by immersion can be gleened from Scripture. I quoted verses from which "immersion" would be inferred. I also showed where Greek for "baptism" is "Baptizo" (the word used in Scripture) means to immerse or dip.

This is why I assert Scripture does cover the how. Never did I say it explicitly covered it, only that it did. So, you are going to have to be a little more explicit as to what exactly you want me to say or the discussion is over.

You've given no input or interpretation of your own. So, is this a discussion or a "question and answer" session? You being the one asking and me being the one expected to answer.

Quit fishing and just ask me what you want to know.

Racer,

The Apostolic teaching on baptism is not explicit in the written word. Trinitarian baptism is alluded to as is the sanctification of the waters and infant baptism. Because these three aspects of baptism are not explicitly stated in the scriptures, those who practice sola scripture practice a baptism that was never taught by Christ. There are pieces to it missing. The practice of baptism in the 21st century looks nothing like first century baptism.



God Bless

 

[Asinner]

So we have scripture which clearly affirms that we are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, until the redemption.. which is still future..

Paul writes it this way in 1 Cor..

Now He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

It's clear that God is sealing us with His Spirit.. not men, as we are born again by GOD.. not through the will of the flesh, or of man, but of GOD.

Certainly it is not man who seals us, but God.

God Bless

 

[Asinner]

And it is the spiritual baptism of the Holy spirit by which one is regenerated, born again.

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

The "washing" is not with water.

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

What saved Noah?

God Bless

 

[ETide]

What exact way do you know you have the Spirit indwelled?

I know personally that it's not through the teaching of the RCC, because I was baptized as an infant in the RCC and was taught later that this meant that I was born again..

This had absolutely no basis in reality or truth though, as I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ many years later for the forgiveness of my sins, after reading the scriptures and knowing the truth of the gospel.

It was then that He sealed me with His Spirit.. after I believed and trusted in Him.. and wouldn't you know.. the scriptures affirm that exact thing..

 

[ETide]

Certainly it is not man who seals us, but God.

God Bless

AMEN, and He seals us with His Spirit.

 

[ETide]

What saved Noah?

God Bless

An Ark !

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Asinner]

I know personally that it's not through the teaching of the RCC, because I was baptized as an infant in the RCC and was taught later that this meant that I was born again..

This had absolutely no basis in reality or truth though, as I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ many years later for the forgiveness of my sins, after reading the scriptures and knowing the truth of the gospel.

It was then that He sealed me with His Spirit.. after I believed and trusted in Him.. and wouldn't you know.. the scriptures affirm that exact thing..

Again, you are basing His Grace on your intelligence. Perhaps your baptism as an infant is what enabled you to believe on Him years later?

God Bless

 

[Asinner]

An Ark !

Actually, the ark is a prefigurement of His Church.

The answer is "water".


20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God Bless

 

[ETide]

Again, you are basing His Grace on your intelligence. Perhaps your baptism as an infant is what enabled you to believe on Him years later?

God Bless

I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, that He loved His Father, and me, and the whole world.. that He offered Himself without spot unto God so that I could be forgiven and saved..

Absolutely I understand it Asinnner, and it's not that difficult.. God's creatures are not mindless, they're the crown of His creation, and His redeemed understand His love and grace..perhaps not perfectly.. although certainly enough to call upon His name out of the gratitude for what He has done for us..

It's insulting to suggest that it's all a mindless effort, void of understanding.. I'm not sure if this is the entirety of your implication.. but is sure seems that way..

 

[ETide]

Actually, the ark is a prefigurement of His Church.

The answer is "water".


20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God Bless

Many people believe that this is speaking of their baptism, although it speaks of Christ being baptized in the waters of Calvary.. and by His being resurrected from the dead.. that alone clears our CONSCIENCE as the book of Hebrews explains.. it's important to take the whole counsel of scripture into view..

Christ's sacrifice clears our conscience before God.. and Noah didn't go through the waters.. he was SAFE in the ARK.. God's Son was punished as the waves and billows went over Him.. on Calvary..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Protestant Church historian Heiko Oberman notes concerning St. Augustine:

"...While repeatedly asserting the ultimate authority of Scripture . ."(The Harvest of Medieval Theology, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, revised edition of 1967, 370-371)​

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It's called "Sola Scriptura."

AGAIN, it's not Solo Scriptura to negate Tradition, it's Sola Scriptura that places Tradition under the ultimate authority of Scripture.


So, Augustine said that.
So much for the oft repeated claim that no one embraced the principle of Sola Scriptura before Luther...

J.N.D. Kelly, AnotherProtestant patristic scholar, wrote:

The three letters [Epistles 175-177] relating to Pelagianism which the African church sent to innocent I in 416, and of which Augustine was the draughtsman, suggested that he attributed to the Pope a pastoral and teaching authority extending over the whole Church, and found a basis for it in Scripture.
(Ibid., 419)

It's called Sola Scriptura.

Ah, a pastoral and teaching authority - not a normative one! NOT a normative authority equal to and functionally above Scripture, but rather one under it. Sola Scriptura.

in his famous dictum against the Manichaean heretics: "I would not believe the gospel, did not the authority of the catholic church compel me."

(History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1974; reproduction of 5th revised edition of 1910, Chapter V, section 66, "The Synodical System. The Ecumenical Councils," pp. 344-345)

It would be unusual for a person to come to faith without the involvement of a Christian in some way...

Yes, Christians have a TEACHING and PASTORAL Authority - Protestants boldly and firmly teach that. It's central to the Great Commission.

The question is: Does an institution have normative authority equal to or above Scripture? Is what Christians teach accountable to Holy Scripture Or is the Holy Scriptures - the infallible written Word of God - accountable to an institution? That's where our embraced principles of epistemology disagree.



Just some of MY thoughts on that...


Pax.


- Josiah


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