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Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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racer

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Asinner said:
Racer,

The Apostolic teaching on baptism is not explicit in the written word.

I said in my last response to you: Never did I say it explicitly covered it, only that it did

Do you assert that doctrine is not Scriptural if it is not explicit?

Asinner said:
Trinitarian baptism is alluded to as is the sanctification of the waters and infant baptism. Because these three aspects of baptism are not explicitly stated in the scriptures, those who practice sola scripture practice a baptism that was never taught by Christ.

That is a false statement, for more than one reason. However, the main reason it is false is because you do not possess a correct understanding of Sola Scriptura. Until you get a grasp on it, these little discussions, where you try to milk self-contradictory statements out of people with patronizing questions like, "you quote such-and-such, what does that mean to you?" you will get nowhere.

Asinner said:
There are pieces to it missing. The practice of baptism in the 21st century looks nothing like first century baptism.

I think I asked you this before, but I'll ask again anyway. Do you think that how many times a person is dipped affects the validity of the baptism? Do you think it has a bearing on a persons salvation?
 
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racer

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
[/indent]



It's called "Sola Scriptura."

AGAIN, it's not Solo Scriptura to negate Tradition, it's Sola Scriptura that places Tradition under the ultimate authority of Scripture.


So, Augustine said that.
So much for the oft repeated claim that no one embraced the principle of Sola Scriptura before Luther...






It's called Sola Scriptura.

Ah, a pastoral and teaching authority - not a normative one! NOT a normative authority equal to and functionally above Scripture, but rather one under it. Sola Scriptura.







It would be unusual for a person to come to faith without the involvement of a Christian in some way...

Yes, Christians have a TEACHING and PASTORAL Authority - Protestants boldly and firmly teach that. It's central to the Great Commission.

The question is: Does an institution have normative authority equal to or above Scripture? Is what Christians teach accountable to Holy Scripture Or is the Holy Scriptures - the infallible written Word of God - accountable to an institution? That's where our embraced principles of epistemology disagree.



Just some of MY thoughts on that...


Pax.


- Josiah


.




:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :clap:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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The application of Tradition to scripture by Augustine is reveald here by Protestant Historians
and seeing that the Protestant historians who are familiar with the Fathers; who specialize in patristics and Church history and history of theology or of doctrinal development of same, completely contradict you i will remain an amateur historian and not be guilty of "fundamental logical errors in evaluating the views of these church fathers."



1. The fact that they remain Protestants suggests to ME that you might be misinterpreting what they are saying or perhaps "seeing" more in it than is there?


2. It's important to not impute to Protestants an epistemology you embrace but they don't. Such is not condusive to discussion. While Protestants esteem learned men as much as Catholics do, they do not place them as authorities above or equal to Scripture; they have no pope and tend not to consider their denomination, its founder or its leaders to be infallible or unaccountable.


Just a couple of thoughts...


Pax.


- Josiah
 
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WarriorAngel

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ETide said:
I know personally that it's not through the teaching of the RCC, because I was baptized as an infant in the RCC and was taught later that this meant that I was born again..

This had absolutely no basis in reality or truth though, as I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ many years later for the forgiveness of my sins, after reading the scriptures and knowing the truth of the gospel.

It was then that He sealed me with His Spirit.. after I believed and trusted in Him.. and wouldn't you know.. the scriptures affirm that exact thing..

How does one absolutely know they are indeed forgiven? :scratch:

I see statements per fact, yet b4 Christ went back into Heaven, Christ said He was given all power and authority in Heaven and on earth, and He commanded the Apostles to go out and forgive sins...whatsoever sin they forgave would be forgiven, and what sin was bound by them, was held bound also in Heaven.

I am curious, if you are not speaking to an Apostle...then how do you know?


racer said:
I said one of us (that means you or me) is not understanding the other. So, if I am being vague then just maybe I'm not understanding what you want to know.

If I might interject, Asinner is asking HOW you got your traditions for baptism. :)
 
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WarriorAngel

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Etide said:
You say that Noah was saved by water, but it's clear enough that he was saved through the water because of the Ark which he built by FAITH..

Not to be a poop, but scripture said it, not Asinner..she was just pointing it out with the verse. ;)

Etide said:
Again I'll simply say that I disagree with this completely, and I believe that it's one of the most, if not the most, destructive teachings in Christendom today.. teaching people that they're born again in this way.

It implies that God is obliged to seal every infant that is baptized regardless of their understanding or hearing the gospel.


As mentioned, scripture affirms clearly that God adds members to His body as it pleases Himself.. He is building His church..and when He does it, there's assurance in it..

Ok, so you disagree with ALL the ECF's since the Apostles and the Apostles? Am I clear with that? :scratch:

Josiah said:
MY PERSONAL view is that several interpretations of Scripture regarding Baptism are possible, more than one seems biblically valid or "normed." Sometimes, Sola Scrptura takes you only so far.

;) :thumbsup: :amen: [Which is precisely what we have been saying]
WHICH is exactly why we MUST keep also the words of the ECF's who knew.

Especially the earliest ones.

Unless many would agree that truth has no concern 2000 years afterward and it doesnt make a difference as long as we all feel for ourselves what could be correct.

Since scripture alone SHOULD be giving us all the answers....but wait, it doesnt. :wave: And you do agree with that....good job.

So I do agree, the scriptures ARE TOO vague, because they WERE NEVER MEANT TO BE TAKEN ALONE.....but a part of the oral teachings they were preaching for the many years before they wrote a single word....oral preachings!
 
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Lynn73

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ETide said:
I know personally that it's not through the teaching of the RCC, because I was baptized as an infant in the RCC and was taught later that this meant that I was born again..
ETide said:
This had absolutely no basis in reality or truth though, as I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ many years later for the forgiveness of my sins, after reading the scriptures and knowing the truth of the gospel.

It was then that He sealed me with His Spirit.. after I believed and trusted in Him.. and wouldn't you know.. the scriptures affirm that exact thing..


My experience is slightly similar. I was water baptized at the age of 12. Mostly because it was the thing to do at that age and I wanted to begin taking communion. I believed in God and Christ but it was a mental assent not a true heart belief. I didn't get truly saved until I was about 20. I was NOT saved when I was put under the water, I was saved when I finally put real faith in Christ. Catholics won't accept this because it upsets their doctrine, I had one tell me that I was saved and just didn't know it. Baloney. I was NOT. If they really believe that putting people under water gives them salvation, they should be grabbing people off the streets to put them under the water. For the life of me, I can't figure out how people can think that a person with no real faith or belief in Christ can get put under water and presto bingo they're born again. That's not what I see in the Scriptures.
 
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JCrawf

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ETide said:
I know personally that it's not through the teaching of the RCC, because I was baptized as an infant in the RCC and was taught later that this meant that I was born again..

This had absolutely no basis in reality or truth though, as I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ many years later for the forgiveness of my sins, after reading the scriptures and knowing the truth of the gospel.

It was then that He sealed me with His Spirit.. after I believed and trusted in Him.. and wouldn't you know.. the scriptures affirm that exact thing..

All that is affirmed here is that your were sealed by Baptism as an infant and apparently later accepted that seal by your own consciousness. However, if you went brain-dead before coming to that consciousness, the seal from your birth would have still been intact. If, as even Protestants say, the seal is done by God, then your conscious assent is not technically necessary. However, it is desired that those sealed by the Lord in Baptism do strive to know the Lord and further accept His revelation. Conversion is not a one-time thing, it is a constant thing. For we are in a relatioship with God and further seek to know Him.

Pax Tecum,

John
 
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JCrawf

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
they have no pope and tend not to consider their denomination, its founder or its leaders to be infallible or unaccountable.

In other words, it's a free-for-all when it comes to what any given Protestant believes. Do you honestly thing that multiplicity of interpretations and no solid foundation universally accepted doctrines and dogmas of the faith is how Jesus would want his body to be? Where is the unity? There is none in Protestantism. It's a believe whatever you want to believe theology any more. That's why I left Protestantism in the first place. No real guidance and no real authority except for scripture - and even that is questionable at times.

Pax Tecum,

John
 
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WarriorAngel

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racer said:
How about some thoughts from Ireneaus:

Ireneaus

Against Heresies, Book II

Chapter XXVIII.-Perfect Knowledge Cannot Be Attained in the Present Life: Many Questions Must Be Submissively Left in the Hands of God

2. If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account227 destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend out knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God. . . . . .

3. If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things [the knowledge of] Which belongs only to God, and others which come with in the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God? . . . . If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard231 one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, "What was God doing before He made the world? "we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect232 by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper233 for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one's imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
4. . . . . . But since God is235 all mind, all reason, all active spirit, all light, and always exists one and the same, as it is both beneficial for us to think of God, and as we learn regarding Him from the Scriptures, such feelings and divisions [of operation] cannot fittingly be ascribed to Him. For our tongue, as being carnal, is not sufficient to minister to the rapidity of the human mind, inasmuch as that is of a spiritual nature, for which reason our word is restrained236 within us, and is not at once expressed as it has been conceived by the mind, but is uttered by successive efforts, just as the tongue is able to serve it.

:wave: Yea, how about him. ;)

He wrote this according to his arguing against gnostics.....
with whom which created their own writings and claimed them from God.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

Chapter IV.-The Absurdity of the Supposed Vacuum and Defect of the Heretics is Demonstrated

1.The cause, then, of such a dispensation on the part of God, is to be inquired after; but the formation of the world is not to be ascribed to any other. And all things are to be spoken of as having been so prepared by God beforehand, that they should be made as they have been made; but shadow and vacuity are not to be conjured into existence. But whence, let me ask, came this vacuity [of which they speak]? If it was indeed produced by Him who, according to them, is the Father and Author of oil things, then it is both equal in honour and related to the rest of the Aeons, perchance even more ancient than they are. Moreover, if it proceeded from the same source [as they did], it must be similar in nature to Him who produced it, as well as to those along with whom it was produced. There will therefore be an absolute necessity, both that the Bythus of whom they speak, along with Sige, be similar in nature to a vacuum, that is, that He really is a vacuum; and that the rest of the Aeons, since they are the brothers of vacuity, should also be devoid 15 of substance. If, on the other hand, it has not been thus produced, it must have sprang from and been generated by itself, and in that case it will be equal in point of age to that Bythus who is, according to them, the Father of oil; and thus vacuity will be of the same nature and of the same honour with Him who is, according to them, the universal Father. For it must of necessity have been either produced by some one, or generated by itself, and sprung from itself. But if, in truth, vacuity was produced, then its producer Valentinus is also a vacuum, as are likewise his followers. If, again, it was not produced, but was generated by itself, then that which is really a vacuum is similar to, and the brother of, and of the same honour with, that Father who has been proclaimed by Valentinus; while it is more ancient, and dating its existence from a period greatly anterior, and more exalted in honour than the remaining Aeons of Ptolemy himself, and Heracleon, and all the rest 16 who hold the same opinions..
2. The remainder of those who are falsely termed Gnostics, and who maintain that the prophets uttered their prophecies under the inspiration of different gods, will be easily overthrown by this fact, that all the prophets proclaimed one God and Lord, and that the very Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things which are therein; while they moreover announced the advent of His Son, as I shall demonstrate from the Scriptures themselves, in the books which follow.



*****BTW, I also use scripture and defend scripture .....does this mean I am sola scriptura? NO...and Ireneaus is also Traditional by belief.****
READ ON!

“It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about” (Against Heresies 3.3.1).



Irenaeus went so far as to provide a list of bishops of the church at Rome, which he argued, proved an unbroken succession from Peter and Paul down to his own day. “And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth” (Against Heresies 3.3.3).

Irenaeus also contributed to the concept that the tradition of the church, passed down from the apostles to their successors, is equally authoritative along with scripture. “For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [Rome, dwp], on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere” (Against Heresies 3.3.2).

“. . . by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the succession of the bishops” (Against Heresies 3.3.2).
 
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ETide

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Lynn73 said:
I was NOT saved when I was put under the water, I was saved when I finally put real faith in Christ. Catholics won't accept this because it upsets their doctrine, I had one tell me that I was saved and just didn't know it. Baloney. I was NOT.


I know what you mean Lynn, and thanks for sharing your testimony..

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that I was NOT saved from my infant baptism.. I did not have the Spirit of God living within me until I trusted in Christ Jesus much later in my life.. again, after believing and trusting in Him..

So I agree.. it's baloney to suggest that I was sealed at infancy and simply didn't know it.

If they really believe that putting people under water gives them salvation, they should be grabbing people off the streets to put them under the water. For the life of me, I can't figure out how people can think that a person with no real faith or belief in Christ can get put under water and presto bingo they're born again. That's not what I see in the Scriptures.

I'll say it again, imo, this is one of the most, if not the most, destructive and false teachings within Christendom today..

God is not obligated to birth the Spirit of Christ into people because they're baptized in water.. it is God who baptizes each member of His body with His Spirit as it pleases Himself.. and He alone can judge when a person comes to Him in faith.
 
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OnTheWay

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Lynn73 said:
My experience is slightly similar. I was water baptized at the age of 12. Mostly because it was the thing to do at that age and I wanted to begin taking communion. I believed in God and Christ but it was a mental assent not a true heart belief. I didn't get truly saved until I was about 20. I was NOT saved when I was put under the water, I was saved when I finally put real faith in Christ. Catholics won't accept this because it upsets their doctrine, I had one tell me that I was saved and just didn't know it. Baloney. I was NOT. If they really believe that putting people under water gives them salvation, they should be grabbing people off the streets to put them under the water. For the life of me, I can't figure out how people can think that a person with no real faith or belief in Christ can get put under water and presto bingo they're born again. That's not what I see in the Scriptures.

That's a misrepresentation of Catholic teaching and you know it. If a Catholic told you that they were quite ignorant. The fact is no properly knowledgable Catholic would ever say "you got saved." The truth of the matter is that salvation is a life long process to be worked out, "in fear and trembling," to quote St. Paul. Thus unless you're dead you cannot be saved or unsaved as per Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, teaching. In fact by stating that one is "saved" one has committed a presumption of mercy, which is a grave sin in and of itself.
 
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ETide said:
It's also pretty ironic that the church which claims to be 'the church', can not assure anyone of their salvation.

Earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46

The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ's death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.
 
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racer

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WarriorAngel said:
:wave: Yea, how about him. ;)

He wrote this according to his arguing against gnostics.....
with whom which created their own writings and claimed them from God.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

Chapter IV.-The Absurdity of the Supposed Vacuum and Defect of the Heretics is Demonstrated

1.The cause, then, of such a dispensation on the part of God, is to be inquired after; but the formation of the world is not to be ascribed to any other. And all things are to be spoken of as having been so prepared by God beforehand, that they should be made as they have been made; but shadow and vacuity are not to be conjured into existence. But whence, let me ask, came this vacuity [of which they speak]? If it was indeed produced by Him who, according to them, is the Father and Author of oil things, then it is both equal in honour and related to the rest of the Aeons, perchance even more ancient than they are. Moreover, if it proceeded from the same source [as they did], it must be similar in nature to Him who produced it, as well as to those along with whom it was produced. There will therefore be an absolute necessity, both that the Bythus of whom they speak, along with Sige, be similar in nature to a vacuum, that is, that He really is a vacuum; and that the rest of the Aeons, since they are the brothers of vacuity, should also be devoid 15 of substance. If, on the other hand, it has not been thus produced, it must have sprang from and been generated by itself, and in that case it will be equal in point of age to that Bythus who is, according to them, the Father of oil; and thus vacuity will be of the same nature and of the same honour with Him who is, according to them, the universal Father. For it must of necessity have been either produced by some one, or generated by itself, and sprung from itself. But if, in truth, vacuity was produced, then its producer Valentinus is also a vacuum, as are likewise his followers. If, again, it was not produced, but was generated by itself, then that which is really a vacuum is similar to, and the brother of, and of the same honour with, that Father who has been proclaimed by Valentinus; while it is more ancient, and dating its existence from a period greatly anterior, and more exalted in honour than the remaining Aeons of Ptolemy himself, and Heracleon, and all the rest 16 who hold the same opinions..
2. The remainder of those who are falsely termed Gnostics, and who maintain that the prophets uttered their prophecies under the inspiration of different gods, will be easily overthrown by this fact, that all the prophets proclaimed one God and Lord, and that the very Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things which are therein; while they moreover announced the advent of His Son, as I shall demonstrate from the Scriptures themselves, in the books which follow.



*****BTW, I also use scripture and defend scripture .....does this mean I am sola scriptura? NO...and Ireneaus is also Traditional by belief.****
READ ON!

“It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about” (Against Heresies 3.3.1).



Irenaeus went so far as to provide a list of bishops of the church at Rome, which he argued, proved an unbroken succession from Peter and Paul down to his own day. “And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth” (Against Heresies 3.3.3).

Irenaeus also contributed to the concept that the tradition of the church, passed down from the apostles to their successors, is equally authoritative along with scripture. “For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [Rome, dwp], on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere” (Against Heresies 3.3.2).

“. . . by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the succession of the bishops” (Against Heresies 3.3.2).

Honey,

You're going to have to give us an idea of what you think these quotes are saying . . . . :scratch: We can't read your mind. :sorry:

How do these quotes relate to the topic?
 
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Trento

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
[/font]


1. The fact that they remain Protestants suggests to ME that you might be misinterpreting what they are saying or perhaps "seeing" more in it than is there?


2. It's important to not impute to Protestants an epistemology you embrace but they don't. Such is not condusive to discussion. While Protestants esteem learned men as much as Catholics do, they do not place them as authorities above or equal to Scripture; they have no pope and tend not to consider their denomination, its founder or its leaders to be infallible or unaccountable.


Just a couple of thoughts...


Pax.


- Josiah


Whats this have to do with Christian history? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
 
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stray bullet

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
While Protestants esteem learned men as much as Catholics do, they do not place them as authorities above or equal to Scripture;

Yes they do- they're called the apostles.

They just stop listening to their successors and went back to the first apostles writings only, realizing they had died and wouldn't be able to correct them when they started twisting their words to form new doctrines.
 
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Trento

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racer said:
Trento,

None of what you say (or the protestant scholars) refutes or negates the fact Augustine considered Scripture the supreme and ultimate authority.

Private intepretation is not in the vocabulary of St. Augustine, hence St. Augustine is foreign to the formal aspect of Sola Scriptura. The testimonies from St. Augustine are legion affirming that Scripture, Tradition and Church are inseparable as opposed to Sola Scriptura (i.e.Bible and one's private interpretation to obtain the truth). The words of St. Augustine in his work dealing with the Manichean heresy: 'For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the
knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, becuase they are but men, still without any uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her authority, inaugerated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The SUCCESSION of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the APOSTLE PETER, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in charge to feed his sheep, down to the present EPISCOPATE...The epistle begins thus:--`Manicheus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are the wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.` Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not believe Manichues to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is
my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manicheus? You will reply, An Apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manicheus.But should you meet with a person not yet beleiving in the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For MY PART, I should NOT BELEIVE the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to beleive in the gospel tell me not to beleive in Manicheus, how can I BUT CONSENT?'


Likewise we have Augustine affirming the need for interpreting Scripture in light of Tradition/Church and never apart from them:
"Wherever this tradition comes from, we must believe that the Church has not believed in vain, even though the express authority of the canonical scriptures is not brought forward for it" Letter 164 to Evodius of Uzalis


"To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you"
C. Cresconius I:33

"It is obvious; the faith allows it; the Catholic Church approves; it is true" Sermon 117:6


"Will you, then, so love your error, into which you have fallen through adolescent overconfidence and human weakness, that you will separate yourself from these leaders of Catholic unity and truth, from so many different parts of the world who are in agreement among themselves on so important a question, one in which the essence of the Christian religion involved..?" C. Julian 1:7,34



Like the rest of the Fathers who intepreted the Scriptures in light of Tradition and Church, Augustine affirmed Catholic doctrines such as the real presence:

'For Christ was carried in his own hands when, entrusting to us his own Body,
he said: "This is my Body." Indeed he was carrying that Body in his own hands'
Ennar. In Ps 33


The farthest thing from Augustine, like the rest of the Fathers, is that he interprets Scripture within the milieu of tradition and Church as opposed to private interpretation.


Similarly, St. Augustine affirms the authority of Tradition (via the monument of universal belief and usage) regarding prayers for the dead. We read:

"In the books of Maccabees we read of sacrifice offered for the dead. Howbeit, even if their were no where at all read in the Old Scriptures, not small is the authority, which in this usage is clear, of the whole Church, namely that in the prayers of the priest which are offered to the Lord God at His altar, the commendation of the death hath its place"

De Cura Pro Mortuis I,3

Likewise, St. Augustine appeals to Tradition and Church regarding the doctrine of infant baptism. In this passage we find St. Augustine affirm a couple of aspects of Tradition; 1)viewed as a belief held by the whole Church , 2) a belief that is entrenched in antiquity and 3)a belief that is unchanging. In addition, we find St. Augustine contrasting the apostolic authority of invariable custom with the authority placed in the Church (in Council)...Again we find St. Augustine, like Athanasius and the rest of the
Fathers, upholding Church, Scripture and Tradition as opposed to the Scriptures Alone
.

And this is the firm tradition of the universal church, in respect of baptism of infants...and if one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the WHOLE Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by APOSTOLIC authority..." ibid IV,31

For St. Augustine, Scripture is the criterion of faith but not at the exclusion of tradition and Church. That is why St. Augustine explicitly affirms (eg. heretical baptism, infant baptism etc.) what the Church has traditionally/generally held to be of apostolic authority. In addition, St. Augustine also affirms that this tradition is entrusted to the Church and preserved by apostolic succession. Regarding infant baptism and original sin St. Augustine affirms that his interpretation was in-line with the
traditional teaching of the Church and not his private interpretation he writes:

For who does not see in what degree Coelestius was bound by the interrogations of your holy predecessor and by the answers of Coelestius, whereby he professed that he consented to the letters of Pope Innocent, and fastened by a most wholesome chain, so as not to dare any further to maintain that the original sin of infants is not put away in baptism? Because these are the words of the venerable Bishop Innocent concerning this matter to the Carthaginian Council....'by the purification of a new
regeneration, purged all past sin by the washing of baptism.' What could be more clear than the judgement of the Apostolic See?"
 
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