Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[Asinner]

[/b]

But you refuse to acknowledge that Augustine holds Scripture to the highest regard. He does not consider tradition to be of equal authority to Scripture.



Regardless of the context, what he believed about Scripture can not be negated. In every context that he mentions Scripture, he shows that he considered Scripture more than sufficient for salvation and that he considered it to be above all authority concerning our Christian faith.

For emphasis some highlights of his thoughts:

for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion

Augustine is saying that the scriptures are preferred to all human authority and opinion, not Church authority which he has elsewhere stated we are to adhere to. He is not saying that Tradition, or the oral teachings of the Apostles, is less than scripture.

I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments,

making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred

The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures

For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality

Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such “pure”13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought

The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away

And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God,

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book.

If any "church" sees the authority in the scriptures and their great value it is the Orthodox Church. The Ancient Church disagrees with your interpretation of Augustine seeing scripture above Tradition. Nothing in the verses above attest to this. What they attest to is the God-breathed inspiration and testimony of the scriptures as a revelation of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Our discussion on baptism is a perfect example of how the scriptures do not provide a complete understanding of certain practices as they were taught by the Apostles. We know that baptism is essential, but the method, form, and to whom it is applicable is not explicitly stated. We can only infer if we throw aside Tradition and hence, we receive a multiplicity of doctrines.

God Bless

 

[Asinner]

Being less explicit at times does not rule out the sufficiency of Scripture.

Then let us continue with baptism . . . What do we know from the scriptures as being explicit? Water and immersion, is what you see (although many proponents of sola scriptura would disagree with you) . . . What else can you tell me about baptism from the scriptures?

God Bless

 

[WarriorAngel]

I want to add that the EO and RC were One Church at the time of Augustine.

 

[Asinner]

I want to add that the EO and RC were One Church at the time of Augustine.

Or . . . the Ancient Church.

God Bless

 

[WarriorAngel]

Or . . . the Ancient Church.

God Bless

 

[racer]

for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion.

'Nuff said . . . .

 

[WarriorAngel]

[
I said previously, and stand by it, that context is more important that misusing and abusing phrases and quotes.

Let there be then no eternal salvation promised to infants out of our own opinion, without Christ's baptism; for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion.

<~~~This is meant to be funny.....dont go getting uptight about it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

And if I am correct, I do believe he was arguing against heresies of the Donatists.

Or one of the heresies of his time.... Who refused to believe baptism was for infants.

I cannot recall, but anyway, that was the reasoning behind his writings.

 

[FreeinChrist]

And if I am correct, I do believe he was arguing against heresies of the Donatists.

Or one of the heresies of his time.... Who refused to believe baptism was for infants.

I cannot recall, but anyway, that was the reasoning behind his writings.

Actually Donatists believed the validity of the baptism or communion depended on the character of the priest performing the sacrament. In particular, they refused to accept sacraments performed by priests who had fallen away during the persecution of Diocletian.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I keep quoting Augustine. You didn’t know that?

Since you keep quoting Catholic fathers, does this mean you believe the sole Church which was Catholic, has the teaching authority?

Yet another erroneous claim propagated by your church. St. Augustine was not Roman Catholic—nor “C”atholic as you and your church assert. I do not quote Augustine to convince people that he taught what I or the Protestant faith profess. What I do show is that there was no unanimous consent among Church fathers as the RCC claims; that many of the earliest fathers taught things which conflict clearly, blatantly, and explicitly with what the RCC teaches today. My arguments are not based upon some claim that certain early Christian figureheads taught exactly what my faith teaches. I have far less to prove than do you.

[/i]

What about him? Nowhere did I assert or imply that all church fathers were in agreement on tradition or scripture.

[/i]

How does this relate to the discussion? Are you asserting that he is speaking of the RCC, the Catholic church to which you belong? You know better, and so do we.[/quote]

Good points!

 

[FreeinChrist]

One thing which I do feel very strongly about is the doctrine within many portions of Christendom which teaches that the miracle of being born again, by God, is established at a water baptism..

Much of Christendom believes and teaches that members are added to the body of Christ at water baptism.. this is a serious issue in my estimation because people are being led to believe that they're in Christ when that may not truly be the case.

I believe the scriptures offer more than an abundant view of the fact that God Himself is building His church, adding members to it as it pleases Himself.. even setting each member into place in a miraculous way..

Although this I do not wish to debate either.. I'll share a few things (as I have) but do not wish to be contentious with others on these things..

I do believe that it is a very serious issue for the reasons mentioned.. and I believe that it is partly the reason for so many believing that they can lose the salvation which Christ offers..

well, you get the message.. enough said..

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yet another erroneous claim propagated by your church. St. Augustine was not Roman Catholic—nor “C”atholic as you and your church assert. I do not quote Augustine to convince people that he taught what I or the Protestant faith profess. What I do show is that there was no unanimous consent among Church fathers as the RCC claims; that many of the earliest fathers taught things which conflict clearly, blatantly, and explicitly with what the RCC teaches today. My arguments are not based upon some claim that certain early Christian figureheads taught exactly what my faith teaches. I have far less to prove than do you.

[/i]

What about him? Nowhere did I assert or imply that all church fathers were in agreement on tradition or scripture.

[/i]

How does this relate to the discussion? Are you asserting that he is speaking of the RCC, the Catholic church to which you belong? You know better, and so do we.

Good points![/quote]

Then please explain Augustine's letter to the Pope of Rome.

1.That Cresconius and Felix, and another Felix, the servants of God, who came to us from your brotherhood, have spent Easter with us is known to your Love. We have detained them somewhile longer in order that they might return to you better instructed against the new Pelagian heretics, into whose error every one falls who supposes that it is according to any human merits that the grace of God is given to us, which alone delivers a man through Jesus Christ our Lord. But he, too, is no less in error who thinks that, when the Lord shall come to judgment, a man is not judged according to his works who has been able to use throughout his life free choice of will. For only infants, who have not yet done any works of their own, either good or bad, will be condemned on account of original sin alone, when they have riot been delivered by the Saviour's grace in the layer of regeneration. As for all others who, in the use of their free will, have added to original sin, sins of their own commission, but who have not been delivered by God's grace from the power of darkness and removed into the kingdom of Christ, they will receive judgment according to the deserts not of their original sin only, but also of the acts of their own will. The good, indeed, shall receive their reward according to the merits of their own good-will, but then they received this very good-will through the grace of God; and thus is accomplished that sentence of Scripture, "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile: but glory, honour, and peace to every man that worketh good; to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile."

2. Touching the very difficult question of will and grace, I have felt no need of treating it further in this letter, having given them another letter also when they were about to return in greater haste. I have written a book likewise for you, and if you, by the Lord's help, read it, and have a lively understanding of it, I think that no further dissension on this subject will arise among you. They take with them other documents besides, which, as we supposed, ought to be sent to you, in order that from these you may ascertain what means the Catholic Church has adopted for repelling, in God's mercy, the poison of the Pelagian heresy. For the letters to Pope Innocent, Bishop of Rome, from the Council of the province of Carthage, and from the Council of Numidia, and one written with exceeding care by five bishops, and what he wrote back to these three; our letter also to Pope Zosimus about the African Council, and his answer addressed to all bishops throughout the world; and a brief constitution, which we drew up against the error itself at a later plenary Council of all Africa; and the above-mentioned book of mine, which I have just written for you,--all these we have both read over with them, while they were with us, and have now despatched by their hands to you. 3. Furthermore, we have read to them the work of the most blessed martyr Cyprian on the Lord's Prayer, and have pointed out to them how He taught that all things pertaining to our morals, which constitute right living, must be sought from our Father which is in heaven, test, by presuming on free will, we fall from divine grace. From the same treatise we have also shown them how the same glorious martyr has taught us that it behoves us to pray even for our enemies who have not yet believed in Christ, that they may believe; which would of course be all in vain unless the Church believed that even the evil and unbelieving wills of men might, by the grace of God, be converted to good. This book of St. Cyprian, however, we have not sent you, because they told us that you possessed it among yourselves already. My letter, also, which had been sent to Sixtus, presbyter of the Church at Rome? and which they brought with them to us, we read over with them, and pointed out how that it had been written in opposition to those who say that God's grace is bestowed according to our merits,--that is to say, in opposition to the same Pelagians.

 

[racer]

How about some thoughts from Ireneaus:

Ireneaus

Against Heresies, Book II

Chapter XXVIII.-Perfect Knowledge Cannot Be Attained in the Present Life: Many Questions Must Be Submissively Left in the Hands of God

2. If, however, we cannot discover explanations of all those things in Scripture which are made the subject of investigation, yet let us not on that account seek after any other God besides Him who really exists. For this is the very greatest impiety. We should leave things of that nature to God who created us, being most properly assured that the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit; but we, inasmuch as we are inferior to, and later in existence than, the Word of God and His Spirit, are on that very account227 destitute of the knowledge of His mysteries. And there is no cause for wonder if this is the case with us as respects things spiritual and heavenly, and such as require to be made known to us by revelation, since many even of those things which lie at our very feet (I mean such as belong to this world, which we handle, and see, and are in close contact with) transcend out knowledge, so that even these we must leave to God. . . . . .

3. If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things [the knowledge of] Which belongs only to God, and others which come with in the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God? . . . . If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances [of Scripture] there shall be heard231 one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things. If, for instance, any one asks, "What was God doing before He made the world? "we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect232 by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper233 for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one's imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things.
4. . . . . . But since God is235 all mind, all reason, all active spirit, all light, and always exists one and the same, as it is both beneficial for us to think of God, and as we learn regarding Him from the Scriptures, such feelings and divisions [of operation] cannot fittingly be ascribed to Him. For our tongue, as being carnal, is not sufficient to minister to the rapidity of the human mind, inasmuch as that is of a spiritual nature, for which reason our word is restrained236 within us, and is not at once expressed as it has been conceived by the mind, but is uttered by successive efforts, just as the tongue is able to serve it.

 

[racer]

Then let us continue with baptism . . . What do we know from the scriptures as being explicit? Water and immersion, is what you see (although many proponents of sola scriptura would disagree with you) . . . What else can you tell me about baptism from the scriptures?

God Bless

I guess one of us is misunderstanding the other. I don't know what direction you're going or what you are trying to get at.

Believing that Scripture is sufficient on all matters concerning salvation is not the same as believing that Scripture is explicit on these matters.

Can you be more specific as to what you are trying to impress upon me and what it is you think I am trying to impress upon you?

 

[racer]

I want to add that the EO and RC were One Church at the time of Augustine.

You may assert anything you like.

 

[Asinner]

One thing which I do feel very strongly about is the doctrine within many portions of Christendom which teaches that the miracle of being born again, by God, is established at a water baptism..

Much of Christendom believes and teaches that members are added to the body of Christ at water baptism.. this is a serious issue in my estimation because people are being led to believe that they're in Christ when that may not truly be the case.

I believe the scriptures offer more than an abundant view of the fact that God Himself is building His church, adding members to it as it pleases Himself.. even setting each member into place in a miraculous way..

Although this I do not wish to debate either.. I'll share a few things (as I have) but do not wish to be contentious with others on these things..

I do believe that it is a very serious issue for the reasons mentioned.. and I believe that it is partly the reason for so many believing that they can lose the salvation which Christ offers..

well, you get the message.. enough said..

Christian teachings for 2000 years disagree with your perspective. Here is just one example:


They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the Kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who have fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the Kingdom of God. For, he said, before a man bears the Name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead, and come out of it alive. (A document known as The Shepherd of Hermas was written about A.D. 100, about ten years after the repose of the Apostle John)


God Bless

 

[Asinner]

I guess one of us is misunderstanding the other. I don't know what direction you're going or what you are trying to get at.

Believing that Scripture is sufficient on all matters concerning salvation is not the same as believing that Scripture is explicit on these matters.

Can you be more specific as to what you are trying to impress upon me and what it is you think I am trying to impress upon you?

Racer,

You are the one being vague. You quoted scripture on baptism, yet failed to give your interpretation of them. Why don't we start there.

God Bless

 

[Trento]

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book II

Chapter 5.—Scripture Translated into Various Languages.

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.

Chapter 9.—How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

The application of Tradition to scripture by Augustine is reveald here by Protestant Historians
and seeing that the Protestant historians who are familiar with the Fathers; who specialize in patristics and Church history and history of theology or of doctrinal development of same, completely contradict you i will remain an amateur historian and not be guilty of "fundamental logical errors in evaluating the views of these church fathers."


Protestant Church historian Heiko Oberman notes concerning St. Augustine:

Augustine's legacy to the middle ages on the question of Scripture and Tradition is a two-fold one. In the first place, he reflects the early Church principle of the coinherence of Scripture and Tradition. While repeatedly asserting the ultimate authority of Scripture, Augustine does not oppose this at all to the authority of the Church Catholic . . . The Church has a practical priority: her authority as expressed in the direction-giving meaning of commovere is an instrumental authority, the door that leads to the fullness of the Word itself.
[SIZE=-1]But there is another aspect of Augustine's thought . . . we find mention of an authoritative extrascriptural oral tradition. While on the one hand the Church "moves" the faithful to discover the authority of Scripture, Scripture on the other hand refers the faithful back to the authority of the Church with regard to a series of issues with which the Apostles did not deal in writing. Augustine refers here to the baptism of heretics . . .​

[SIZE=-1](The Harvest of Medieval Theology, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, revised edition of 1967, 370-371)[/SIZE]

J.N.D. Kelly, AnotherProtestant patristic scholar, wrote:


The three letters [Epistles 175-177] relating to Pelagianism which the African church sent to innocent I in 416, and of which Augustine was the draughtsman, suggested that he attributed to the Pope a pastoral and teaching authority extending over the whole Church, and found a basis for it in Scripture.
(Ibid., 419)


According to Augustine [De doct. christ. 3,2], its Scripture's doubtful or ambiguous passages need to be cleared up by 'the rule of faith'; it was, moreover, the authority of the Church alone which in his eyes guranteed it's veractiy

[ C. ep. Manich. 6: cf. de doct. christ. 2,12; c. Faust Manich, 22, 79][SIZE=-1](Ibid., 47)[/SIZE]
Protestant Church historian Philip Schaff comments on St. Augustine's views of Scripture and Tradition:

Augustine, therefore, manifestly acknowledges a gradual advancement of the church doctrine, which reaches its corresponding expression from time to time through the general councils; but a progress within the truth, without positive error. for in a certain sense, as against heretics, he made the authority of Holy Scripture dependent on the authority of the catholic church, in his famous dictum against the Manichaean heretics: "I would not believe the gospel, did not the authority of the catholic church compel me."

(History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity: A.D. 311-600, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1974; reproduction of 5th revised edition of 1910, Chapter V, section 66, "The Synodical System. The Ecumenical Councils," pp. 344-345)


[SIZE=-1]He adopted Cyprian's doctrine of the church, and completed it in the conflict with Donatism by transferring the predicates of unity, holiness, universality, exclusiveness and maternity, directly to the actual church of the time, which, with a firm episcopal organization, an unbroken succession, and the Apostles' Creed, triumphantly withstood the eighty or the hundred opposing sects in the heretical catalogue of the day, and had its visible centre in Rome. [SIZE=-1]
[SIZE=-1](Ibid., Chapter X, section 180, "The Influence of Augustine upon Posterity and his Relation to Catholicism and Protestantism," pp. 1019-1020)


<B>The renowned historian Jaroslav Pelikan concurs with this general assessment of St. Augustine's views:

Concerning Augustine this authority of orthodox catholic Christendom . . was so powerful as even to validate the very authority of the Bible . . . But between the authority of the Bible and the authority of the catholic church (which was present within, but was more than, the authority of its several bishops past and present) there could not in a real sense be any contradiction. Here one could find repose in "the resting place of authority," [Bapt. 2.8.13] not in the unknown quantity of the company of the elect, but in the institution of salvation that could claim foundation by Christ and succession from the apostles. (The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: Vol. 1 of 5: The​

</B>

Emergence of the Catholic Tradition: 100-600, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971, 303-304

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[Asinner]

Holy Tradition

The Road That Leads Home

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/trad_body.aspx

 

[FreeinChrist]

Holy Tradition

The Road That Leads Home

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/trad_body.aspx

You know, I for one AM HOME. I am a citizen of heaven, indwelled by the Holy Spirit and part of His church.

IMHO, to imply I or others are not home is offensive to me.