Eph 2:8-9

[themuzicman]

Wrong. Greek grammar preserves the entirety of the Husband and the Wife throughout all of scripture. For instance, every epistle title reads in the greek, "To Her, Philipians" or "To Her, the Galations" or "To Her, Romans" etc etc. It is intentional and it is God designed and God-breathed. Most definetly so my dear greek student.
We are Christ's Wife. The feminine gender ALWAYS refers to the Church. That is a first principal of understanding scripture.

1) Please point to where Ephesians 2:8-9 uses the word "wife."
2) The pronoun is neuter. Please explain how this neuter pronoun has anything to do with feminine "wife" using Greek Grammar rules.

 

[Shulamite]

However, in each instance, the hardening happens for a specific purpose to a specific person or group of people. Nowhere does this extend to everyone.

With respect, you are missing my point. What I was trying to get you to answer was this:

Were those who were hardened for a specific purpose done so by their consent or prior knowledge? Did God harden this specific people group or person with their knowledge it was happening or their consent?

Yes or no.

Pharoah and others were hardened so that God's purposes were carried out. None of these that were hardened CHOSE to be hardened, did they?

 

[themuzicman]

With respect, you are missing my point. What I was trying to get you to answer was this:

Were those who were hardened for a specific purpose done so by their consent or prior knowledge? Did God harden this specific people group or person with their knowledge it was happening or their consent?

Yes or no.

Pharoah and others were hardened so that God's purposes were carried out. None of these that were hardened CHOSE to be hardened, did they?

We really don't know how God hardened them. The text doesn't tell us. God may have used existing circumstances to cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart. Same thing with Israel. It is possible that God was direct, but it is also possible that God simply created circumstances by which those hardened fell into being hardened of their own free will.

 

[Son of Israel]

John 6:45-47
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

You obviously misunderstand the passage. This passage doesn't speak a squeak about faith being a choice. Nowhere in the bible is believing portrayed as a choice. The choice is always to repent, change your life, follow Christ...etc. Only those who already believe will ever do that.

1. It is God who provided a sacrifice for our sins.
2. It is God who placed us in a situation where we could hear about it.
3. It is God who speaks to us when we hear his word.
4. It is God who has worked in our hearts to convict us of the truth.

We then because of all of the grace God has given us to believe, decide to repent and follow him, because we believe and that's what people who believe the message God has given do.

We simply believe because God has given us so much grace it is impossible not to believe. It is like a person who has lived in the dark all of his life and someone turns the lights on. He doesn't choose to believe it is bright, he just knows it is bright. It is the same with faith. We are the men in the dark and God is the switch flipper.

The above passage simply says that those who believe have eternal life. It doesn't say they created their belief and earned eternal life. Belief is evidence of salvation, it is the gift of assurace that God gives to his elect. It is comfort and joy in knowing the truth. And because we know the truth we repent of our sins and follow our Lord.

No matter how hard you strain at your little gnats to attempt swallowing this ridiculous camel, it aint gonna happen Osage. It is ALWAYS a choice, scripture is PERFECTLY CLEAR ON THIS;

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

All of Heaven and earth witness this record, all but you.

Should I blow that up bigger so that you see it? What, are you a blind follower of calvinism or something??

 

[Shulamite]

We really don't know how God hardened them. The text doesn't tell us. God may have used existing circumstances to cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart. Same thing with Israel. It is possible that God was direct, but it is also possible that God simply created circumstances by which those hardened fell into being hardened of their own free will.

Thank you for your respectful response.... I appreciate it.
However, I respectfully disagree. The Lord clearly shows that He hardens whom He hardens and softens whom He softens (a direct act by God).
Also, this scripture from Proverbs I feel speaks for itself:

Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is like streams of water. Both are under the LORD's control. He turns them in any direction he chooses."

If I am reading this scripture correctly, which I believe I am, God is saying that the hearts of men are in His hand to channel whichever way HE CHOOSES.

 

[Hammster]

They are also terms used in a variety of ways.

Romans 8 is a discussion about Christians. Those who already believe. So it won't have application for those who do not believe.

Then you believe that there are those in the flesh who can please God?

 

[themuzicman]

Then you believe that there are those in the flesh who can please God?

The "fleshly" Corinthians (1 Cor 3:3) did, as they were already saved.

However, if you're talking about those who are not yet saved, and you're talking about committing righteous acts that are sufficient to merit salvation, then no.

If you mean by "please" that the can do acts that are at least according to the law, then yes, they can. (Rom 2:14-16).

If you're more specifically talking about the unsaved hearing the gospel, learning from it, and believing, that's exactly what John 6:44-47 says.

 

[themuzicman]

Thank you for your respectful response.... I appreciate it.
However, I respectfully disagree. The Lord clearly shows that He hardens whom He hardens and softens whom He softens (a direct act by God).
Also, this scripture from Proverbs I feel speaks for itself:

Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is like streams of water. Both are under the LORD's control. He turns them in any direction he chooses."

If I am reading this scripture correctly, which I believe I am, God is saying that the hearts of men are in His hand to channel whichever way HE CHOOSES.

Well, you gotta be careful using Proverbs, as it is wisdom literature, and not direct doctrine. If you take Proverbs as direct doctrine, and keep reading Proverbs 21:

5The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance,
but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

You might just join the Word of Faith movement.

So, maybe you should consider the genre of wisdom literature, and re-evaluate.

 

[Shulamite]

Am I to assume you are saying that Proverbs is not the inspired word of God? All scripture is God-breathed. There is not one word in all of the written scriptures that are not the word of God, breathed by the Spirit through those who wrote.

Jesus said that David spoke by the Spirit when he recorded his words in Psalms.

Genesis to Revelation is the God-breathed, Spirit-inspired word of God. I take it as such and Proverbs 21:1 says what God wanted it to say. He channels the human heart wherever He wills.

 

[themuzicman]

Am I to assume you are saying that Proverbs is not the inspired word of God? All scripture is God-breathed. There is not one word in all of the written scriptures that are not the word of God, breathed by the Spirit through those who wrote.

Jesus said that David spoke by the Spirit when he recorded his words in Psalms.

Genesis to Revelation is the God-breathed, Spirit-inspired word of God. I take it as such and Proverbs 21:1 says what God wanted it to say. He channels the human heart wherever He wills.

Never said otherwise. I'm saying that each writing of Scripture has its own genre. Some books (Daniel) have more than one.

Thus, when exegeting and interpreting Scripture, we have to understand the genre as well as the author and audience and all the rest.

The verse I posted is not universally true. There are more than enough counterexample of people who were diligent and failed. (And not a few hasty people who succeeded) If you want to take that as Scripture commits error, go for it. I take it as "this is wisdom literature, and is speaking general terms, not absolute ones."

Same applies for verse 1.

I take verse 1, from a wisdom perspective, to mean that the king's actions are at least limited by God's will, just as the banks of a stream limit the water flowing through them.

 

[Hammster]

The "fleshly" Corinthians (1 Cor 3:3) did, as they were already saved.

However, if you're talking about those who are not yet saved, and you're talking about committing righteous acts that are sufficient to merit salvation, then no.

If you mean by "please" that the can do acts that are at least according to the law, then yes, they can. (Rom 2:14-16).

If you're more specifically talking about the unsaved hearing the gospel, learning from it, and believing, that's exactly what John 6:44-47 says.

After they hear the gospel, and get this faith, but before they believe, are they in the flesh or the Spirit?

 

[Shulamite]

Am I to take these scriptures literally or abstractly or metaphorically:?

1.) Jeremiah 10:23...."I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

2.) Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
3.) Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

When Jesus says, "You did not choose Me, I chose you and appointed you to bear fruit, " was He speaking directly, absolutely or in a way that I can I take Him at His word?

When He says, "No one comes to the Me unless the Father enables him..," am I to take Him at His word or decide whether it's doctrine or not directly for me?

 

[themuzicman]

After they hear the gospel, and get this faith, but before they believe, are they in the flesh or the Spirit?

The question is undefined, if you're talking in a Romans 8 sense, as Romans 8 is about Christians.

 

[bling]

Thank you for your respectful response.... I appreciate it.
However, I respectfully disagree. The Lord clearly shows that He hardens whom He hardens and softens whom He softens (a direct act by God).
Also, this scripture from Proverbs I feel speaks for itself:

Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is like streams of water. Both are under the LORD's control. He turns them in any direction he chooses."

If I am reading this scripture correctly, which I believe I am, God is saying that the hearts of men are in His hand to channel whichever way HE CHOOSES.

Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is like streams of water. Both are under the LORD's control. He turns them in any direction he chooses."
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']


[/FONT]The above rendering (interpretation) of the Hebrew maybe miss leading.

NIV Proverbs 21: 1 In the LORD’s hand the king’s heart is a stream of water
that he channels toward all who please him.

The idea being the Lord can direct the King to help those that please the Lord, but this does not mean the King’s free will moral choices is being controlled. The “King” in this passage is referring to more the ruling Government which God controls over all. You are extrapolating this one concept to include not only a specific individual king and than going on to apply it to all people.

The concept and in context with all Proverbs 21, is more how everything works together (including the ruling Government) to help those that please the Lord.

Proverbs does not tell us specifically when this will happen and for whom this is written, so it may not directly apply to every circumstance, the same as the Old Testament promises and commands do not all apply directly to Christians today.


Can God harden the hearts of people by providing truth and miracles to them, that they will knowingly not accept?

Did Jesus not “harden the hearts” of the Spiritual Leadership in of the Jewish nation by confronting them with truth and miracles they could not deny?

Have you known people that have become so bad (hardened) that they don’t even like themselves and thus at that point will either decide to seek God’s help or spiral down to destruction? Were Peter and Judas harden by Jesus allowing them to go down a path of decay and thus reach that point of humbly choosing God’s Mercy or selfishly refusing God’s mercy?

 

[Hammster]

The question is undefined, if you're talking in a Romans 8 sense, as Romans 8 is about Christians.

Whether Romans 8 is about Christians is debateable. But I'll concede for now that it is. The principle is the same. If a Christian who is in the flesh cannot please God, why should we think that a non-Christian (who, maybe we can agree, is in the flesh by nature), can please God?

I see Scripture speak of Christians acting in the flesh, but not non-believers acting in the Spirit. So I am trying to determine, in your theology, if a non-Christian who has heard the gospel and now has faith, can act in the Spirit?

 

[themuzicman]

Whether Romans 8 is about Christians is debateable. But I'll concede for now that it is. The principle is the same. If a Christian who is in the flesh cannot please God, why should we think that a non-Christian (who, maybe we can agree, is in the flesh by nature), can please God?

I see Scripture speak of Christians acting in the flesh, but not non-believers acting in the Spirit. So I am trying to determine, in your theology, if a non-Christian who has heard the gospel and now has faith, can act in the Spirit?

If they have faith, they're no longer non-Christian. When one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

If they have faith, they're no longer non-Christian. When one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

What does Scriptue call these "tweeners", the ones between a natural man who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and ones who are believers?

 

[themuzicman]

What does Scriptue call these "tweeners", the ones between a natural man who cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and ones who are believers?

Immature Christians. Those needing milk rather than solid food. You see, 1 Cor 2:6-16 is about immature Christians, namely the Corinthian church. If you read 1 Cor 3:1-3, you'll see that Paul calls these Christians "carnal" or "fleshly", telling them that they are not yet able to grasp the spiritual things from 1 Cor 2:14 (calling them natural men), which is the wisdom spoken of among the mature from 2:6.

 

[Hammster]

Immature Christians. Those needing milk rather than solid food. You see, 1 Cor 2:6-16 is about immature Christians, namely the Corinthian church. If you read 1 Cor 3:1-3, you'll see that Paul calls these Christians "carnal" or "fleshly", telling them that they are not yet able to grasp the spiritual things from 1 Cor 2:14 (calling them natural men), which is the wisdom spoken of among the mature from 2:6.

So milk isn't spiritual food? If not, what is it?

 

[themuzicman]

So milk isn't spiritual food? If not, what is it?

In the 1 Cor 2 context, it is food for natural men, those who are not mature enough to handle the spiritual things spoke of among the mature (2:6)