Eph 1:4 exegeted

[Foghorn]

Never said anything of the sort. You've got the wrong person.

It was meant for freegrace2 from his statement,

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Since I gave the actual Greek and its grammar, that trumps ANY translation.

 

[EmSw]

It was meant for freegrace2 from his statement,

I thought so. But, thank you for clearing it up.

 

[Foghorn]

I thought so. But, thank you for clearing it up.

Your welcome.

 

[EmSw]

Your welcome.

Do you mean 'you're welcome' from Biblical Greek, modern Greek, or from English?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yea, so, your point?

If nobody speaks and writes Biblical Greek anymore, then there is no real certainty in what the language is saying unless you look at what the Bible says in your own language.

That's not true.

Then all Greek scholars should agree with each other if they were not guessing at to what the Biblical Greek is saying.

Ah, yea, I agree.

So if a man living under a bridge does not need Greek to understand God's Word, then neither do you. Granted, I am not saying that you cannot study the Greek. But by what you said so far, it has given me the impression that this is the case. If that is not the case, then my apologies.

I agree. Who said otherwise?

This is definitely good news that you believe a man is not going to be held accountable to knowing God's Word in the Greek.

Yea, so?

I am talking about God's Word here. Such a response should not be your reply to my mention of God's Word.

No, not at all.

The English does not say anything different than the Greek. Do you agree?

Now, why don't you go back and read a bit to see what I was talking about.

Your jumping to conclusions. Really, go back and read and follow the discussion.

Thanks,

Perhaps maybe I got a little over excited, but it is my experience that when one asks if they know the Greek, it is like asking that this person does not have the "Super Secret Knowledge" that they don't have. I sure hope that this is not the case (By your saying that).


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[FreeGrace2]

Curious, have you been to school for Greek?

Are you insinuating that the tense is not perfect? Check your lexicon.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It seems Free Grace theology has its own scholars. I was hoping he could provide a translation which agreed with his assessment.

I don't use translations. I consult the original language.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I take that as a no? You are not schooled in Greek and not a Greek scholar?

Those who wrote the lexicons are Greek scholars.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was meant for freegrace2 from his statement,

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Since I gave the actual Greek and its grammar, that trumps ANY translation.


If my lexicon is in error, please advise.

 

[Foghorn]

If nobody speaks and writes Biblical Greek anymore, then there is no real certainty in what the language is saying unless you look at what the Bible says in your own language.



Then all Greek scholars should agree with each other if they were not guessing at to what the Biblical Greek is saying.



So if a man living under a bridge does not need Greek to understand God's Word, then neither do you. Granted, I am not saying that you cannot study the Greek. But by what you said so far, it has given me the impression that this is the case. If that is not the case, then my apologies.



This is definitely good news that you believe a man is not going to be held accountable to knowing God's Word in the Greek.



I am talking about God's Word here. Such a response should not be your reply to my mention of God's Word.



The English does not say anything different than the Greek. Do you agree?



Perhaps maybe I got a little over excited, but it is my experience that when one asks if they know the Greek, it is like asking that this person does not have the "Super Secret Knowledge" that they don't have. I sure hope that this is not the case (By your saying that).


....

well if you look back you will see someone using Greek to prove they were correct and someone else was wrong. I asked if he was schooled in Greek, because if he is not, then his statement about being correct may not be accurate. People can interpret the bible by strongs and other sources, with a couple different definitions they choose what best fits their beliefs.

I was by no means stating or suggesting that one has to know and understand Greek to understand God's word.

 

[Foghorn]

Those who wrote the lexicons are Greek scholars.

Yes, and for those of us who are not scholars they can be very useful. They are a tool to help us understand certain passages, not to reinterpret scripture.

 

[Foghorn]

Are you insinuating that the tense is not perfect? Check your lexicon.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Since I gave the actual Greek and its grammar, that trumps ANY translation.


If my lexicon is in error, please advise.

Well, I don't know, what one are you using?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, and for those of us who are not scholars they can be very useful. They are a tool to help us understand certain passages, not to reinterpret scripture.

Are you suggesting that I have re-interpreted Scripture? If so, please explain clearly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, I don't know, what one are you using?

Are you suggesting that lexicons give different tenses for the same words? My lexicon parses every word that occurs in the NT. I don't look at just the root word, as many lexicons do. I look at the specific spelling, which indicates the tense, voice and mood, and other facets of each word.

 

[Foghorn]

Are you suggesting that I have re-interpreted Scripture? If so, please explain clearly.

I am not saying those who practice righteousness are not of God, of course they are.

I am saying you cannot use your lexicon in this matter to prove a works based salvation. I assumed you knew this?

Maybe I assumed wrong?

Either way, you cannot prove it besides re translating scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

well if you look back you will see someone using Greek to prove they were correct and someone else was wrong. I asked if he was schooled in Greek, because if he is not, then his statement about being correct may not be accurate. People can interpret the bible by strongs and other sources, with a couple different definitions they choose what best fits their beliefs.

I was by no means stating or suggesting that one has to know and understand Greek to understand God's word.

I am relieved to hear you say that.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not saying those who practice righteousness are not of God, of course they are.

I am saying you cannot use your lexicon in this matter to prove a works based salvation. I assumed you knew this?

Maybe I assumed wrong?

I think you are thinking of jason, who DOES preach a works based (sinless perfection) notion.

My belief is that no works can save anyone. Only faith in Christ provides eternal salvation.

I also believe that faith in Christ doesn't automatically mean that the believer will produce good works. Yes, we were created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph 2:10), but because of the overwhelming commands throughout the NT epistles regarding fruit, works, etc, it is clear that they aren't guaranteed for the believer. iow, I reject the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Not all saints will persevere in the faith, which is why Barnabas and Paul visited a number of churches to encourage them to "stay true to the faith", or "remain in the faith".

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

If true belief in Christ results in perseverance, there would be no need for such encouragement. It would be automatic. The fact that believers do need encouragement to remain true to the faith is because of the possibility that some won't. Just like the second soil, who "believed for a while, but in time of testing, fell away", per Luke 8:13.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you are thinking of jason, who DOES preach a works based (sinless perfection) notion.

My belief is that no works can save anyone. Only faith in Christ provides eternal salvation.

I also believe that faith in Christ doesn't automatically mean that the believer will produce good works. Yes, we were created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph 2:10), but because of the overwhelming commands throughout the NT epistles regarding fruit, works, etc, it is clear that they aren't guaranteed for the believer. iow, I reject the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Not all saints will persevere in the faith, which is why Barnabas and Paul visited a number of churches to encourage them to "stay true to the faith", or "remain in the faith".

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

If true belief in Christ results in perseverance, there would be no need for such encouragement. It would be automatic. The fact that believers do need encouragement to remain true to the faith is because of the possibility that some won't. Just like the second soil, who "believed for a while, but in time of testing, fell away", per Luke 8:13.

I believe in Relationship-sim and not Man directed Works Salvationism. I believe it is God who does the work in the believer once they surrender their life to Him (1 Corinthians 15:10) (Philippians 2:13). But if you think a believer can abide in unrepentant sins like lying, murdering, stealing, etc. you are saddenly mistaken. Paul says that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21). John says those who do such sins will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Including all liars) (Revelation 21:8). Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). John says a murderer has no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Jesus says if you are ashamed of Him and His words, He will be ashamed of you before the Father (Mark 8:38). Being ashamed of His words means one is too scared in this life so as not preach the gospel to others. They are ashamed of His Word (i.e. the gospel). For if any looks back after putting his hand to the plow is not fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62). Meaning, if a believer looks back to their old life and sinful ways instead of preaching the gospel and doing what He commands them to do, things are going to go really bad for them in the after-life. For Jesus said that the one who does not do what he says is likened to a fool who built his house upon the sand whereby a storm came and destroyed that house greatly (Matthew 7:26-27). Jesus said if you do not pick up your cross and follow Him, you are not worthy of Him (Matthew 10:38). And Paul essentially says, if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Scripture says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).


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[Butch5]

The whole premise of this thread is wrong. The "us" in Ephesians 1:4 is not believers, it's the Jews. This passage is one of the pillars of Calvinism and it is greatly misunderstood by them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe in Relationship-sim and not Man directed Works Salvationism.

No, you don't believe in "relationship-ism" because you FAIL to understand the biblical difference between relationship, which is PERMANENT, and fellowship, which is dynamic and may be broken, without any change in relationship.

God used the words "Father" and "son" or "children" for a reason. To demonstrate the spiritual relationship and fellowship issues that are easily seen in physical birth parent and child relationship and fellowship issues. And He gave us a perfect example of that in the prodigal son.

I believe it is God who does the work in the believer once they surrender their life to Him (1 Corinthians 15:10) (Philippians 2:13).

No one is saved by "surrender", and your verses don't support your belief system.

But if you think a believer can abide in unrepentant sins like lying, murdering, stealing, etc. you are saddenly mistaken.

They are disciplines AS SONS. They are NOT severed from relationship. Heb 12:4-11 teach discipline, not severance of relationship.