Eph 1:4 exegeted

[EmSw]

Spirit first, faith second, works third. You have it backwards

Yes, Spirit first.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

By conviction, the Spirit brings to light or exposes one's sins. Then that person is able to cast away his transgressions, so he may thereby, make himself a new heart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"According to Eph 1:4, you are elect BECAUSE you have believed.

Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe."

So we are self elected? How silly.

You're quite right; how silly. I cannot imagine how anyone would come to such a conclusion from what I said.

To rephrase what I said Eph 1:4 teaches, God chooses believers. That is exactly what it says, btw. The "us" in v.4 is defined in 1:19. Check it out.

 

[tulipbee]

Yes, Spirit first.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

By conviction, the Spirit brings to light or exposes one's sins. Then that person is able to cast away his transgressions, so he may thereby, make himself a new heart.

Then faith

 

[Foghorn]

Am I predestined to pat myself on the back? If I am predestined to do that, why does it concern you? Are you jealous I am predestined to do so?

Let God's predestination take its course, and don't ridicule and try to change it. If the sovereign God has predetermined to have me pat myself on the back, don't fight it.

What do you think?

To answer your question, of course, it takes good works for one to enter heaven. It is by good works that one comes forth to the resurrection of life.

Now that wasn't so hard.

I agree it takes good works but not ours, and also perfect obedience this is why Christ has done it for us, we cannot do it of ourselves.

If one tries to enter the sheepfold by evil works, he will definitely be thwarted in his attempt.

The passage you seem to referring to does not support what your trying to prove.

Are you one who believes those who continue in evil works will inherit the kingdom of God?

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

hope this answers your question.

Walk if you must. I've seen it plenty of times. When the light of the truth is presented, those who don't believe it, will definitely go their own way.

I can see you have gone your own way, so yes your saying is correct.

It's your choice; I will be just fine whatever you decide to do.

I choose to agree with scripture, I hope you are fine with that.

 

[Foghorn]

Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe."

Now this brings me to a decision, who shall I believe, you or God's word?

I'll stay with God's word.

 

[Foghorn]

Spirit first, faith second, works third. You have it backwards

Amen!

 

[Foghorn]

By conviction, the Spirit brings to light or exposes one's sins. Then that person is able to cast away his transgressions, so he may thereby, make himself a new heart.

Good ol' sovereign man!

 

[EmSw]

What do you think?

If you believe in God's predestination, why do question it?

Now that wasn't so hard.

I agree it takes good works but not ours, and also perfect obedience this is why Christ has done it for us, we cannot do it of ourselves.

Whose good works are you doing if not yours? Why are your good works not of yourself? If your good works are not of yourself, who chose to do them? Did you not choose to do them of yourself, or are you talking about robotic rhetoric? And you guys wonder why we think you are just puppets.

The passage you seem to referring to does not support what your trying to prove.

Your chance of entering heaven is by chance only. You have no choice, therefore, you can only hope God chooses you.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

hope this answers your question.

So, if one does not have good works in his life, then we can safely say he is NOT God's workmanship. If one is not God's workmanship, then we can safely say his is NOT saved.

I can see you have gone your own way, so yes your saying is correct.

I choose to agree with scripture, I hope you are fine with that.

I see you are attacking me personally, to prove your doctrine. I say, prove your doctrine by YOUR life, and not by criticism. I have seen the schemes Calvinists use on a daily basis, and personal attacks is definitely one of them.

Now, I will give you the very words Jesus said.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now I will ask you for honest and sincere answers.

Jesus mentions two resurrections, one of life and one of condemnation.

1. Do you believe everyone is included in one or the other?
2. Which resurrection speaks of salvation?
3. What prerequisite did Jesus Himself give for coming forth to the resurrection of life? of damnation?
4. Can one neglect doing good and expect to come forth to the resurrection of life?

If you would please answer these questions, then I will have some idea of where your beliefs stand.

 

[EmSw]

Good ol' sovereign man!

Do you believe the Bible's truth when it says to cast away all your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe.""

Now this brings me to a decision, who shall I believe, you or God's word?

I'll stay with God's word.

Great. Please share with me the verse that says people are elected to believe. And it isn't Eph 1:4, which I've explained what it means.

 

[Foghorn]

If you believe in God's predestination, why do question it?

Honestly? I don't question it. I figured I'd give you a part of the post where you can focus excuses and jokes. It's working, no?

Whose good works are you doing if not yours?

All the good works I do are in Christ. None of my own on my own.

Why are your good works not of yourself?

I have no good works of myself outside of Christ, neither do you.

If your good works are not of yourself, who chose to do them? Did you not choose to do them of yourself, or are you talking about robotic rhetoric?

My good works do not save me.

And you guys wonder why we think you are just puppets.

How many people are you?

Your chance of entering heaven is by chance only. You have no choice, therefore, you can only hope God chooses you.

Have I answered any of your question with such a response? No.

If you want answers ask question, just don't assume. Because your just beating on a strawman.

It looks silly from here.

So, if one does not have good works in his life, then we can safely say he is NOT God's workmanship.

I think it is safe not to say, we do not know the progress of anyone, what they are going through, or how God is working with them.

If one is not God's workmanship, then we can safely say his is NOT saved.

See above.

I see you are attacking me personally, to prove your doctrine.

Not at all. It's possible you feel this way because you see your reflection in your statement? I have no reason to attack you personally, but what I was replying to was more like a personal attack. But no worries, I don't take it personal.

I say, prove your doctrine by YOUR life, and not by criticism. I have seen the schemes Calvinists use on a daily basis, and personal attacks is definitely one of them.

Why are you running off with an assumption?

Go back and read your post, then read my reply. I think you may have missed my point?
No personal attack from me.

Now, I will give you the very words Jesus said.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Well of course. Those who are in Christ will go unto the resurrection of life, those who are in Christ will do good works.

But friend, good works does not save anyone. Good works are a description for those who are in Christ, Not A Prescription!

Now I will ask you for honest and sincere answers.

Thank you.

Jesus mentions two resurrections, one of life and one of condemnation.

Ok.

1. Do you believe everyone is included in one or the other?

Of course.

2. Which resurrection speaks of salvation?

It's obvious.

3. What prerequisite did Jesus Himself give for coming forth to the resurrection of life? of damnation?

Before this question is answered it's good to have an understanding of God's word.
Of those who have done good, Jesus does not mean, "good works deserve eternal life" which is bestowed on us undeserved, but we (the elect) produce them as fruits of faith, from this they spring.

4. Can one neglect doing good and expect to come forth to the resurrection of life?

This question springs forth from your opinion.

It is not you and your beliefs we need to answer to, but God's word.

If you would please answer these questions, then I will have some idea of where your beliefs stand.

Just ask me where my beliefs stand, I think I will do ok relating them.

 

[Foghorn]

Do you believe the Bible's truth when it says to cast away all your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

Show me the passage? I would love to see man enabled to make himself a new heart and spirit.

No where in scripture will you find God investing this power in man.

 

[Foghorn]

I said this:
"Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe.""

I know what you said and thanks for sharing your opinion.

. Please share with me the verse that says people are elected to believe. And it isn't Eph 1:4, which I've explained what it means.

I am not in the practice of sharing one verse. Scripture interprets scripture, one verse interprets nothing.

Oh where do I start?

Well, you may not like it but I will start in Ephesians. No one verse for proof text, so if you would like we can start a thread on Ephesians and consider what is being taught in context. But, here we go......

Eph1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Gal 3 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

Matt 26 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

John 17 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

There are just to many passages and verses in God's word to put them all here.

Are there any here you would like to look at individually?

 

[EmSw]

Show me the passage? I would love to see man enabled to make himself a new heart and spirit.

No where in scripture will you find God investing this power in man.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

 

[EmSw]

Honestly? I don't question it. I figured I'd give you a part of the post where you can focus excuses and jokes. It's working, no?

How is it YOU give me a part? Did you decide that on your own?

All the good works I do are in Christ. None of my own on my own.

I have no good works of myself outside of Christ, neither do you.

The good works I do are done with Christ in me. But yet, if I choose not to do them, then will be done, the same for you.

My good works do not save me.
How many people are you?

I am one. How far do you think you will get if you keep doing evil works? If good works don't save you, please show me scripture which states evil works save anyone. Do you believe evil works will save anyone?

Have I answered any of your question with such a response? No.

If you want answers ask question, just don't assume. Because your just beating on a strawman.

It looks silly from here.

Oh, it's not a straw man. If it's not chance, please tell me what you do to ensure you are chosen. If the choice isn't yours, then it's all by chance. And you have no way to enhance your chance. You are either predestined to heaven, or foreordained to hell. It's that simple in your theology - 50/50 chance.

Well of course. Those who are in Christ will go unto the resurrection of life, those who are in Christ will do good works.

But friend, good works does not save anyone. Good works are a description for those who are in Christ, Not A Prescription!

How can you say good works does not save. Good works are required to make our faith alive. Those in Christ to not automatically do good works. It is a choice made from the heart.

Before this question is answered it's good to have an understanding of God's word.
Of those who have done good, Jesus does not mean, "good works deserve eternal life" which is bestowed on us undeserved, but we (the elect) produce them as fruits of faith, from this they spring.

That's not what the passage says at all. It says those who have done good will come forth to the resurrection of life. Maybe another twist and you might convince me, but I doubt it.

This question springs forth from your opinion.

It is not you and your beliefs we need to answer to, but God's word.

Just ask me where my beliefs stand, I think I will do ok relating them.

Your answer to God's word is to interpret it to fit your doctrine.

Paul agrees with these words of Jesus when he says those who continue to do good will be given eternal life (Romans 2:6-8).

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

 

[Foghorn]

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

So, because it reads, " and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit" you believe it means man is able to do this of himself? Are you serious?

 

[Foghorn]

How is it YOU give me a part? Did you decide that on your own?

I am glad you agree to keep it in this area.

The good works I do are done with Christ in me.

Sure, I have no issue with it being worded that way.

But yet, if I choose not to do them, then will be done, the same for you.

I'm assuming you made a typo? (then will be done), so I don't understand your question.

I am one.

Then speak for yourself?

How far do you think you will get if you keep doing evil works? If good works don't save you, please show me scripture which states evil works save anyone. Do you believe evil works will save anyone?

I do not believe good works will save anyone.

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Oh, it's not a straw man.

Oh but it is.

it's not chance, please tell me what you do to ensure you are chosen.

God does not take chances, God chose before the foundations of the world and those He chose will without a doubt, be saved. There is no chance of not being saved.

If the choice isn't yours, then it's all by chance.

Well at least I hear a different argument, I'll give you that.

And you have no way to enhance your chance. You are either predestined to heaven, or foreordained to hell. It's that simple in your theology - 50/50 chance.

To see it like that can only be from someone who does not accept the truth of the gospel, so, tag it as a chance salvation.

I see Arminianism or, if you rather "free-willism" as a chance based salvation, there is always a chance someone may consider Christ. And there is always that chance this same person one day may decide to reject Christ. Not much security there. Free willism, or Amininanism just simply don't understand the atonement.

How can you say good works does not save.

I'm quoting the teaching of scripture, that's how.

Good works are required to make our faith alive.

No they are not.

Those in Christ to not automatically do good works. It is a choice made from the heart.

Good works are a description of those who are in Christ. Not a perscription to get saved or stay saved.

That's not what the passage says at all. It says those who have done good will come forth to the resurrection of life. Maybe another twist and you might convince me, but I doubt it.

I'm trying to help you understand the passage. You must understand no one is saved through works.

Your answer to God's word is to interpret it to fit your doctrine.

No, wrong again. It's just the opposite. If God's word teaches different then how I believe, I will change how I believe to fit the word.

You should try it sometimes. Consider, "we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Not by works.

Paul agrees with these words of Jesus when he says those who continue to do good will be given eternal life (Romans 2:6-8).

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again.

 

[EmSw]

I am glad you agree to keep it in this area.

Sure, I have no issue with it being worded that way.

I'm assuming you made a typo? (then will be done), so I don't understand your question.

Then speak for yourself?

I do not believe good works will save anyone.

Will anyone be saved without good works? Can evil works save anyone?

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

What does grace teach a man? Can a person disobey grace?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Is grace effective is a man does not deny ungodliness and worldly lusts? Is it effective if a man does not live soberly, righteously, and godly?

God does not take chances, God chose before the foundations of the world and those He chose will without a doubt, be saved. There is no chance of not being saved.

I never said God takes chances. I said you have a 50/50 chance of being chosen. Did Judas have a chance of being saved? He was chosen by the Lord Himself, walked with the Savior for 3 years, believed Jesus, was given understanding of the kingdom, and was sent by Jesus to the lost.

Have you heard Jesus say He chooses you in person? Have you walked with Jesus for 3 years? Have you personally heard Jesus' teachings and given understanding? Has Jesus personally sent you to the lost? What gives you a better chance at salvation than Judas? Is there something special in you that God should choose you? Did God favor you over the reprobate?

The answer is no; you had a 50/50 chance of God choosing you. You are no better than anyone else to be chosen. There is also the chance He didn't choose you. And if God hasn't chosen you, you are playing the same role Judas did?

To see it like that can only be from someone who does not accept the truth of the gospel, so, tag it as a chance salvation.

I see Arminianism or, if you rather "free-willism" as a chance based salvation, there is always a chance someone may consider Christ. And there is always that chance this same person one day may decide to reject Christ. Not much security there. Free willism, or Amininanism just simply don't understand the atonement.

There is no chance if a person freely chooses to believe the Savior's words, to follow Him, and obey His commandments. It is the ones which choose hell which say they can't or don't want to follow Him and obey His commandments.

I'm quoting the teaching of scripture, that's how.

No they are not.

Good works are a description of those who are in Christ. Not a perscription to get saved or stay saved.

I'm trying to help you understand the passage. You must understand no one is saved through works.
No, wrong again. It's just the opposite. If God's word teaches different then how I believe, I will change how I believe to fit the word.

You should try it sometimes. Consider, "we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Not by works.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again.

Grace is nothing to a person who does not learn and obey what grace teaches.

There is no faith nor righteousness is one does not practice righteousness.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

The one who does not practice righteousness is not even born of God. However, your desire is that people who do not practice righteousness to be saved.

John further says the one who does not practice righteousness is not even of God.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

John also says the one who does not practice righteousness is a child of the devil. So how is it you say practicing righteousness, or doing good is not required to be saved? Are children of the devil saved in your theology? John have even more to say about practicing righteousness.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

If you tell me a man is righteous without practicing righteousness, John says you are deceiving me.

 

[EmSw]

So, because it reads, " and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit" you believe it means man is able to do this of himself? Are you serious?

Man must decide of himself to cast away his transgressions; God is able to strengthen him and fight for him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Keep in mind that you weren't elected to believe."""

I know what you said and thanks for sharing your opinion.

It's more than an opinion. It's Biblical truth. Please show me the verse that tells me that I was elected to believe. And only then will I believe that. I do know who God chooses to save: those who believe. Which is explicitly stated in 1 Cor 1:21. But no verse says that God chooses who will believe.

I am not in the practice of sharing one verse. Scripture interprets scripture, one verse interprets nothing.

OK, then give me how ever many verses it takes to prove that God chooses who will believe.

Oh where do I start?

The Bible is always a very good start.

Well, you may not like it but I will start in Ephesians.

I love Ephesians, so you have made a good start.

No one verse for proof text, so if you would like we can start a thread on Ephesians and consider what is being taught in context. But, here we go……

Not looking for prooftexts, but clear statements that God chooses who will believe.

Eph1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Sorry, but the phrase "He chose US" is defined by Paul clearly in v.19. The "us" refers to "us who believe". Unless you wish to argue that the "us" of 1:4 is a different group than the "us" of 1:19. So, please make your case.

Phil 1:29

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Nothing about being chosen here. The operative word is "granted". Unless you wish to argue that "granted" is the same word as "chosen/elected".

Titus 3

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

I don't see anything about being chosen or elected here. The verse is about the basis for which He saves us. It is by His mercy, by regeneration. This verse doesn't support the claim that He chooses who will believe.

Gal 3

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

How does this verse support the claim that God chooses who will believe. I don't see anything about being chosen or elected, nor anything about believing.

Matt 26

for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

John 17 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

There are just to many passages and verses in God's word to put them all here.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing in the Matt 26 passage that addresses God's choice of who will believe. btw, the Greek for "many" can be understood as "the masses". So all the verses about Christ dying for "the many" means He died for "the masses". hoi poloi.

Are there any here you would like to look at individually?

Just did. And none support the view that God choosses who will believe.

Here's a verse that specifically tells us who God chooses to save, though:
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

In black and white: God was well pleased…to save those who believe.

That is who God chooses to save.

But, there are no verses that tell us that God chooses who will believe.