Eph 1:4 exegeted

[FreeGrace2]

Since you like Greek words, why not tell us what 'strive' means. Since it is by 'striving' that we enter the narrow gate, surely this is the way you entered.

Like I said, I've already entered.

What got the sheep in according to Matthew 25:33-35? The answer is in the verses listed; no need to go anywhere else.

Wrong question. The FACT that they were sheep means they were believers, and we know how one is saved, per Jesus' words in John 10, by entering through the gate (Himself) by faith.

It was their iniquity which kept them out.

Patently false, since Christ died for all sins. Scripture says so.

I Corinthians 6 -tous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.[/I]

Galatians 5 -
Ephesians 5 -
3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

All of these refer, not to GETTING INTO the kingdom, but having an INHERITANCE in the kingdom. I'm always amazed at how so many people misunderstand Paul here.

How does one INHERIT in the kingdom? Paul tells us exactly how:

2 Timothy 2:11
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]It is a trustworthy statement:
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
Since it is the truth that all believers have "died with him", all believers will also live with Him. Another verse on security of each believer.

2 Timothy 2:12
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
The phrase "reign with Him" does not mean getting into the kingdom, but actually co-reigning with Christ. same concept is mentioned in Rom 8:17.

But, if the believer doesn't endure (denies Him), He will deny the believer the privilege of reigning with Him.

These are verses about reward in heaven, which IS based on works, faithfulness and obedience.

Jesus, who is Truth Itself, and every word He spoke.

Why do you ignore/reject these words of Jesus, then:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Matthew 19:17
"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments".

Context is everything, so it behooves one to pay attention to it. In this passage, Jesus is talking to a rich young man who asked how to "get eternal life". We know from the context that he valued his wealth and wouldn't part with it. Which is the point that Jesus made to him. He wasn't willing to really seek eternal life. He was into his "good works" and thought that would get him in, just like the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

I believe every word proceeding from Him, including, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

But you've rejected His words here:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

When does Jesus raise to life, those who believe?

John 6:40 -
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

At the resurrection.

When does one receive eternal life?

Mark 10:30 - but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

One receives eternal life WHEN one believes. One enters into eternal life in eternity.

Please review and BELIEVE Jn 5:24.

I know you like to say you have eternal life by faith.

I like to say it because the Bible says it repeatedly.

However, we see faith is the substance of things 'HOPED FOR'. We have the hope of eternal life:

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We also have the hope of salvation -

Romans 8 -
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I will ask the same question - who hopes for what he already sees?

If we hope for what we do not see (eternal life, salvation), we eagerly await it with perseverance.

Apparently your view is that no one has eternal life until they earn it, huh?

Do you agree we are heirs according to the hope of eternal life?

Sure. And Jesus promised that those who believe and have received eternal life WILL BE raised up at the last day. What does that mean for you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You had a pretty good discussion going here on this thread. Even though many including myself disagree with some of your positions the discussion has remain relatively civil.

Thank you.

But who left the door open and let that “extraordinary” obnoxious buffoon come in? His ridiculous manner has managed to kill his own thread, “[FONT=&quot]OSASers must believe that God created human robots!” His other thread, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Scripture threatens loss of salvation to pre-tribulationists” is well on the way to the thread graveyard. [/FONT]

Please don't look at me. I'm not the "doorman".

[FONT=&quot]If I thought that he was simply an obnoxious buffoon I probably wouldn’t bother to comment on him. But I believe that it goes deeper with him. I believe that he is a false teacher – not just a mistaken idiot. One need only look through some of his posts to see the truth of the old adege, "By their fruits ye shall know them!" I’ll warn against him every chance I get until the moderators tell me to stop.[/FONT]

That may be sooner than later, given the adjectives used.

[FONT=&quot]EmSw, on the other hand, is simply mistaken. I don’t agree with his position. But I don’t think that there is any ill intent. The doctrine he has subscribed to is very dangerous and it even runs counter to the graceful doctrine that you and I subscribe to. [/FONT]

Absolutely! I find no grace at all in either posters' position. It's all about works for eternal life.

[FONT=&quot]I wish these works oriented doctrines had stayed elsewhere. But they haven’t. I’ve sworn off talking directly to the buffoon. (Of course I did the same thing concerning you at one time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ) So I might not be entering in again until we get back on track if that happens at all. Maybe I will with EmSw. But not with the false teacher.[/FONT]

Got it. I'm a buffoon.

[FONT=&quot]I have a point or two for you. But that will have to wait until someone shuts the barn door again.

There's always the option of blocking specific posters, so there's no distraction.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the way – it always feels funny taking your side in a discussion. I'll savor it while I can. [/FONT]

.

Thanks. I think.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Got it. I'm a buffoon.

Not at all.
You're only right about half as much as me.
But you're definitely no buffoon.

 

[EmSw]

All of these refer, not to GETTING INTO the kingdom, but having an INHERITANCE in the kingdom. I'm always amazed at how so many people misunderstand Paul here.

Which comes first, entering the kingdom, receiving the kingdom, or inheriting the kingdom?

How does one INHERIT in the kingdom? Paul tells us exactly how:

2 Timothy 2:11
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]It is a trustworthy statement:
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
Since it is the truth that all believers have "died with him", all believers will also live with Him. Another verse on security of each believer.

I WILL take a look at this passage. Does that mean I am looking at this passage now?

Please notice Paul said we WILL also live with Him, putting it into a future tense. Also, we WILL live with Him only after we have died with Him. So, which came first for you, your belief in Him, or your dying with Him?

2 Timothy 2:12
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
The phrase "reign with Him" does not mean getting into the kingdom, but actually co-reigning with Christ. same concept is mentioned in Rom 8:17.

Here again, Paul used the word WILL. We WILL reign with Him (future tense), after we endure (present tense).

But, if the believer doesn't endure (denies Him), He will deny the believer the privilege of reigning with Him.

Doesn't 'endure' suggest a period of time? Maybe a lifetime? How is it one can reign with Him, before enduring? Is 'enduring' only a one-hit wonder to you?

These are verses about reward in heaven, which IS based on works, faithfulness and obedience.

So, when Jesus said to enter life, keep the commandments, do you consider life a reward for keeping the commandments?

Why do you ignore/reject these words of Jesus, then:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

I have no problem with any of these verses. Why do you insist I do?

Context is everything, so it behooves one to pay attention to it. In this passage, Jesus is talking to a rich young man who asked how to "get eternal life". We know from the context that he valued his wealth and wouldn't part with it. Which is the point that Jesus made to him. He wasn't willing to really seek eternal life. He was into his "good works" and thought that would get him in, just like the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

The rich young man did NOT ask how to 'get' eternal life, but rather, what he should do to inherit eternal life. This is the subject of these verses.

I find rather ironic Jesus didn't say, 'All you have to do is believe in Me'. That would have justified your belief. However, Jesus said to enter (same as inherit) life, keep the commandments.

And if you think keeping the commandments is doing good works, then Jesus said to enter life, do good works (see John 5:29 below).

I understand this goes contrary to your beliefs, and is very difficult for you believe. However, when the rubber meets the road, it is your belief verses the truth Jesus gave us. Guess who will win?

Onereceives eternal life WHEN one believes. One enters into eternal life in eternity.

Please review and BELIEVE Jn 5:24.

Let's look at Mark 10:30 -
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Notice Jesus said, 'WILL RECEIVE a hundred times as much......along with persecutions; and in the age to come (will receive) eternal life'. Jesus this in Matthew 19:29 -

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

I ask, how does one inherit eternal life if he has received it already? If my relative will give me an inheritance when he dies, does that mean I have received it now?

I like to say it because the Bible says it repeatedly.

Apparently your view is that no one has eternal life until they earn it, huh?

Whoops! You took a wrong turn in Albuquerque. We are not discussing earning eternal life. We are discussing having the hope of eternal life.

Let me ask you again, and maybe you can stay on the right road this time.

I know you like to say you have eternal life by faith. However, we see faith is the substance of things 'HOPED FOR'. We have the hope of eternal life:

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Are you different than everyone else? Do you not have the hope of eternal life the rest of us do? How is it you have already received eternal life, when the rest of us are made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life? Please stay on this road and answer these questions.

We also have the hope of salvation -

Romans 8 -
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I will ask the same question - who hopes for what he already sees?

If we hope for what we do not see (eternal life, salvation), we eagerly await it with perseverance.

Do you agree we are heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life?

Sure. And Jesus promised that those who believe and have received eternal life WILL BE raised up at the last day. What does that mean for you?

Here is how I see it in John 5:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I see those who do good will be raised to a resurrection of life (maybe you will tell me this isn't eternal life). Here again good deeds are associated with life, and evil deeds with judgement.

Do you believe the resurrection of life is salvation?
How will you come forth to a resurrection of life if you commit evil deeds and not good deeds? You must ask yourself this question in light of verse 29.

 

[nobdysfool]

The problem here is thinking that doing good works are in any way causing one to go to be with the Lord, to reign with Him, etc. Good works are the result of Salvation, not its cause.

The True Believer will do good works out of the abundance of that which has been given to them. They are changed people. Changed people do different things that what they did before they were changed. True Christians do good works because it is in their nature to do so. If they have to force themselves, it would be appropriate to ask, have they truly been changed?

Christian growth is the process of Sanctification, whereby they over a period of time become more Christ-like. Their good works are not the cause of either their Salvation or their Sanctification, they are the result and manifestation that which is within. Trying to hold the good works uip as some sort of guarantee is being a Pharisee.

We're seeing a few Pharisees in this forum, trying to tell us that Salvation basically hangs by a thread unless you are working your butt off doing good works, as though those good works are what gains them their continued Salvation (as though it were a moment by moment thing)

These Pharisees want to add burdens to the Christian's walk. Plain and simple. That's what they are advocating. This is not the simplicity of the Gospel.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't want to debate point for point with you. Your post was not for me. But I would like to make one point that I think may help clarify a little. To that end - I'm just referencing a group of statements by you to FreeGrace2 first so that I can comment on them after.

I know you like to say you have eternal life by faith. However, we see faith is the substance of things 'HOPED FOR'. We have the hope of eternal life:

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Are you different than everyone else? Do you not have the hope of eternal life the rest of us do? How is it you have already received eternal life, when the rest of us are made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life? Please stay on this road and answer these questions.

We also have the hope of salvation -

Romans 8 -
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I will ask the same question - who hopes for what he already sees?

If we hope for what we do not see (eternal life, salvation), we eagerly await it with perseverance.

Do you agree we are heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life?

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

"FAITH" is the key to receiving these promises now. Note that it says that faith is the substance. The hope is not the substance. It is a promise.

The promise is received by faith. that is true for eternal life, blessing, kingdom authority - you know all the stuff you've been talking about.

You asked things like, "Are you different than everyone else?" AND "How is it you have already received eternal life, when the rest of us are made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life?"

The answer is simple according to scripture. Many of us have received eternal life (not to mention other promises) by faith. It is the way we receive many things from God in this age.

If you want to know what make people like me or FreeGrace2 or any number of others who disagree with you and extraordinary different from you (as you asked) it is that WE HAVE FAITH. That is how we have received our salvation now and not vaguely hoped for it to come later.

Frankly - later will be too late as I read it. You seem to be banking on later to show forth your obedience (as good as obedience of all kinds is). The problem is that waiting for good works to show is the very thing that marks you out in God's eyes as being one who lacks faith.

We receive salvation by faith now. Please consider doing it while it is still called "today". Tomorrow will be too late.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Which comes first, entering the kingdom, receiving the kingdom, or inheriting the kingdom?

My point was ignored, and your question is irrelevant.

Please notice Paul said we WILL also live with Him, putting it into a future tense. Also, we WILL live with Him only after we have died with Him. So, which came first for you, your belief in Him, or your dying with Him?

Again, you've ignored my point referring to 2 Tim 2:12. And again, your question is irrelevant.

Here again, Paul used the word WILL. We WILL reign with Him (future tense), after we endure (present tense).

Missing the point.

Doesn't 'endure' suggest a period of time? Maybe a lifetime? How is it one can reign with Him, before enduring? Is 'enduring' only a one-hit wonder to you?

The reigning will occur for the enduring believers in eternity. Not before.

So, when Jesus said to enter life, keep the commandments, do you consider life a reward for keeping the commandments?

No. Rewards are for faithful and obedient believers. Eternal life is given to those who believe in Him.

I have no problem with any of these verses. Why do you insist I do?

The many times I've given them, they have been ignored. If there is no problem, why push your works salvation?

The rich young man did NOT ask how to 'get' eternal life, but rather, what he should do to inherit eternal life. This is the subject of these verses.

His question was clear; he wanted to know how to get in.

I find rather ironic Jesus didn't say, 'All you have to do is believe in Me'. That would have justified your belief. However, Jesus said to enter (same as inherit) life, keep the commandments.

I gave my explanation of the interchange between them.

And if you think keeping the commandments is doing good works, then Jesus said to enter life, do good works (see John 5:29 below).

See Jn 5:24.

I understand this goes contrary to your beliefs, and is very difficult for you believe. However, when the rubber meets the road, it is your belief verses the truth Jesus gave us. Guess who will win?

Truth aways wins. And Jn 5:29 is simply a description behavior of who is saved and who wasn't. But 5:24 clearly indicates HOW one is saved.

Let's look at Mark 10:30 -
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Notice Jesus said, 'WILL RECEIVE a hundred times as much......along with persecutions; and in the age to come (will receive) eternal life'.

Please finish the sentence: a 100 times as much….of what? And when?

Point: Jesus was referring to believers, who will receive, "in the age to come, eternal life". There is nothing here to suggest that eternal life is earned.

With discernment and comparing Scripture, we know that Jesus said He came that "they may have life, and have it abundantly". Jn 10:10. So there is the concept that receiving "eternal life" through works refers to having "life more abundantly", again a reference to rewards, which appears has been rejected by your view.

Jesus this in Matthew 19:29 -

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Sure. Jn 10:10 is about having life "more abundantly". Rewards are in view.

I ask, how does one inherit eternal life if he has received it already?

Since no believer in this life has received what is referenced as "inheriting eternal life", your question is irrelevant. Those who will inherit life more abundantly will receive it in eternity, not before.

If my relative will give me an inheritance when he dies, does that mean I have received it now?

Duh.

Whoops! You took a wrong turn in Albuquerque. We are not discussing earning eternal life. We are discussing having the hope of eternal life.

Please research the meaning of "hope" in Scripture.

Let me ask you again, and maybe you can stay on the right road this time.

I know you like to say you have eternal life by faith.

Because the Bible says so.

However, we see faith is the substance of things 'HOPED FOR'. We have the hope of eternal life:

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Are you different than everyone else? Do you not have the hope of eternal life the rest of us do? How is it you have already received eternal life, when the rest of us are made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life? Please stay on this road and answer these questions.

Such questions are moronic. Those who know what Scripture means by "hope" have no problem with these verses.

It seems your view is that one "hopes" in the sense of wishing with fingers crossed of gaining eternal life. That view demonstrates a huge lack of FAITH.

Scriptural "hope" is CONFIDENCE in having eternal life. Unlike your view.

We also have the hope of salvation -

Romans 8 -
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I have full CONFIDENCE of salvation. Unlike your view.

I will ask the same question - who hopes for what he already sees?

If we hope for what we do not see (eternal life, salvation), we eagerly await it with perseverance.

My hope is my CONFIDENCE, which is what the word means.

Do you agree we are heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life?

The word in Titus 3:7 is elpis:
in the Christian sense
joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

The very word refutes your view.

Here is how I see it in John 5:
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Just back up to 5:25 for orientation, which it seems you'd rather ignore.

I see those who do good will be raised to a resurrection of life (maybe you will tell me this isn't eternal life). Here again good deeds are associated with life, and evil deeds with judgement.

If one is comfortable with the hope (I hope so) of receiving eternal life based on works, knock yourself out. My confidence is in Jesus Christ, who is my Savior.

Do you believe the resurrection of life is salvation?

It's part of it.

How will you come forth to a resurrection of life if you commit evil deeds and not good deeds?

Because the Bible promises it. 1 Thess 5:5-10 guarantees that: "who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

This promise refutes your view. In the context, the believer is described as being "sons of light" (v.5), and contrasted with unbelievers, who are in "darkness" (v.4). So the reference to being "awake or asleep" means that whether believers are walking like unbelievers or as sons of light, we WILL LIVE together with Him.

I imagine that must really bug those who think they earn their salvation.

You must ask yourself this question in light of verse 29.

I've refuted all your points.

 

[Jack Terrence]

EmSw asked:

How will you come forth to a resurrection of life if you commit evil deeds and not good deeds?

FG2 replied

Because the Bible promises it. 1 Thess 5:5-10 guarantees that: "who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

This promise refutes your view.

Fallacy of Generalization. The Thessalonians had special dispensation. This does not apply to anyone else but them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

EmSw asked:FG2 repliedFallacy of Generalization. The Thessalonians had special dispensation. This does not apply to anyone else but them.

Please prove this claim. Or at least provide reasonable evidence for it.

Thanks.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Please prove this claim. Or at least provide reasonable evidence for it.

Thanks.

You should prove your claim. The general teaching of scripture is that the saints must persevere which they do. Jesus said, "They that have done good to the resurrection of life." Paul said that he strove in order that he might attain to the resurrection of the dead. "If, by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:21). Are you better than Paul?

So, you see, it is up to YOU to prove your claim. You cite one verse, and then you commit the Fallacy of Generalization, and then you boast saying, "I have refuted you." You have refuted no one.

The Thessalonians had special dispensation because of the intense persecution they had suffered. God was going to ask no more of them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You should prove your claim.

I'm not the one to claim that 1 Thess 5:10 was ONLY for the Thess believers, as was your claim. Paul's letters were all written to believers, and by extension to all believers throughout this age. It's your burden to show that 1 Thess 5:10 was ONLY for the Thess believers. And if that were true, what in the world did he mean? There's lots of 'splainin' to do regarding your claim.

I don't have to "prove" my claim. Why wouldn't ALL of Paul's epistles ultimately be for all believers? That's what has to be proven.

The general teaching of scripture is that the saints must persevere which they do.

But Scripture is clear that not all believers have persevered. Paul's warning to Timothy was in the first person in 2 Tim 2:12-13.

Jesus said, "They that have done good to the resurrection of life." Paul said that he strove in order that he might attain to the resurrection of the dead. "If, by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:21). Are you better than Paul?

Irrelevant and silly question. Do you seriously believe that Jesus was teaching that only those who have "done good" will receive resurrection of life?? That's what the Pharisees thought as well.

So, you see, it is up to YOU to prove your claim. You cite one verse, and then you commit the Fallacy of Generalization, and then you boast saying, "I have refuted you." You have refuted no one.

Not everyone who has been refuted realizes that. Again, my claim is that Paul's letters were for all believers throughout the age. Prove that isn't true, as that is your claim.

The Thessalonians had special dispensation because of the intense persecution they had suffered. God was going to ask no more of them.

Prove it, please. Believers throughout the ages have suffered intense persecution. Why just the Thess believers? And where did that idea come from?

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm not the one to claim that 1 Thess 5:10 was ONLY for the Thess believers, as was your claim. Paul's letters were all written to believers, and by extension to all believers throughout this age.

Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE at Christ's coming (1 Thessalonians 5:23). That promise was NOT made to the church at Smyrna. Jesus told them to be faithful "until death." Furthermore, Jesus told Smyrna that those who overcame would not be hurt of the second death (damnation). Such a condition was NOT placed upon the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians had special dispensation.

So much for your erroneous claim that Paul's letters were for all believers of all ages.

Look up the Fallacy of Generalization.

 

[extraordinary]

You should prove your claim. The general teaching of scripture is that the saints must persevere which they do.
Jesus said, "They that have done good to the resurrection of life." Paul said that he strove in order that he
might attain to the resurrection of the dead. "If, by any means I might attain to the resurrection of the dead."
(Philippians 3:21). Are you better than Paul?

People miss the little hidden tactful words that Paul often uses.
Paul says that he hopes they do, he is persuaded they do, and such.

Where does Paul ever use the word "will"? (I see y'all runnin' for your concordances).
He uses words such as might, should, hope, etc. which leave the door open.
I won't blow your minds by continuing ... to hell.

I guess y'all will have to pick these nuances up in the Spirit
'cause you're not picking them up in the English.
.

 

[nobdysfool]

One must first have a working knowledge of the more archaic forms of English, rather than just modern day English. "Might" did not mean the same thing as our use of the word. Neither did "should". If you don't understand the changes that words have gone through in their meanings, it's no wonder that some truly bizarre doctrines are invented. We're seeing it demonstrated right here, in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE at Christ's coming (1 Thessalonians 5:23). That promise was NOT made to the church at Smyrna.

Actually, whether one holds to pre or post-trib rapture, all believers WILL be alive at His coming. So there was nothing special about what Paul told them.

Jesus told them to be faithful "until death."

And again, that's what ALL believers should be.

Furthermore, Jesus told Smyrna that those who overcame would not be hurt of the second death (damnation). Such a condition was NOT placed upon the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians had special dispensation.

Where do you get all this supposed contrast between Smyrna and Thess? Smyrna was one of the 7 churches in Rev, and Thess was not. You're comparing apples and squash.

So much for your erroneous claim that Paul's letters were for all believers of all ages.

Or, so much for your fallacious comparison between apples and squash. Your post didn't prove anything.

 

[extraordinary]

One must first have a working knowledge of the more archaic forms of English, rather than just modern day English. "Might" did not mean the same thing as our use of the word. Neither did "should".
If you don't understand the changes that words have gone through in their meanings,
it's no wonder that some truly bizarre doctrines are invented.
We're seeing it demonstrated right here, in this thread.

Yeowsir, just goin' by what the translators came up with!
Can't we trust those guys for anything?
Wonder what the new-fangled versions say!
Can't anyone fix mistakes, if there are any?
Hey, I know for shore that the NKJV fixed some KJV stuff.
.

 

[EmSw]

My point was ignored, and your question is irrelevant.

Again, I will ask for the order of the following:

1. receiving the kingdom
2. entering the kingdom
3. inheriting the kingdom

If you can't answer, just say so.

No. Rewards are for faithful and obedient believers. Eternal life is given to those who believe in Him.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Hmmm, eternal salvation is for those who obey Him. Where did you get rewards are for those who obey Him?

The many times I've given them, they have been ignored. If there is no problem, why push your works salvation?

Mark it down, those passages have not been ignored.

I thought you said you take the WHOLE counsel of God, but yet, you can't get past your pet scriptures to see the whole counsel. Anytime, a passage is given which states it is more than just believing, it is either irrelevant to you or you simply ignore what is said.

His question was clear; he wanted to know how to get in.

Exactly. And what did Jesus say? "If you wish to enter life, keep the commandments".

I gave my explanation of the interchange between them.

But you want to say what Jesus answered is of no importance.

Truth aways wins. And Jn 5:29 is simply a description behavior of who is saved and who wasn't. But 5:24 clearly indicates HOW one is saved.

So, there is a certain behavior on a believer's part to be saved! And Jesus said it was to do good deeds.

Point: Jesus was referring to believers, who will receive, "in the age to come, eternal life". There is nothing here to suggest that eternal life is earned.

Are you living in the 'age to come' now? If not, how is it you have received eternal life when Jesus plainly said in the 'age to come'?

With discernment and comparing Scripture, we know that Jesus said He came that "they may have life, and have it abundantly". Jn 10:10. So there is the concept that receiving "eternal life" through works refers to having "life more abundantly", again a reference to rewards, which appears has been rejected by your view.

Nothing is said of rewards in that passage. But I understand how desperately you want to insert it there. If you want to add concepts, it's perfectly within your freedom of choice. But please don't do it just to justify your position.

Sure. Jn 10:10 is about having life "more abundantly". Rewards are in view.

Again, I challenge you to find rewards mentioned in that passage.

Since no believer in this life has received what is referenced as "inheriting eternal life", your question is irrelevant. Those who will inherit life more abundantly will receive it in eternity, not before.

You are intermingling two passages to say what you want it to say. Abundantly is describing the life Jesus just mentioned, not a future reference.

Please research the meaning of "hope" in Scripture.

Oh, I did.

Such questions are moronic. Those who know what Scripture means by "hope" have no problem with these verses.

It seems your view is that one "hopes" in the sense of wishing with fingers crossed of gaining eternal life. That view demonstrates a huge lack of FAITH.

Not so fast Tonto! Hope is not wishing. I will explain hope below.

Scriptural "hope" is CONFIDENCE in having eternal life. Unlike your view.

I have full CONFIDENCE of salvation. Unlike your view.

My hope is my CONFIDENCE, which is what the word means.

I am afraid you are trying to deceive us. Hope IS NOT confidence. You are trying to pull a fast one. You may fool some with this, but I see right through it.

The word in Titus 3:7 is elpis:
in the Christian sense
joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

The very word refutes your view.

Now, let's look at the definition of hope, which you give as elpis. You are trying to use the adjective 'confident' as the meaning of hope.

Actually, hope is 'EXPECTATION', not confidence, just as joyful isn't hope either.

Let's look at the meaning of expectation from dictionary.com.

1. the act or the state of expecting: to wait in expectation.
2. the act or state of looking forward or anticipating.
3. an expectant mental attitude: a high pitch of expectation.
4. something expected; a thing looked forward to.
5. Often, a prospect of future good or profit:

Notice the words used - wait, looking forward, anticipating, future good. Hope always deals with the future. If we have a 'hope of eternal life', it is an expectation, anticipation, and looking forward to it.

With this in mind, let's look at Titus 3:7 again -

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

After being justified by grace, we are then heirs (future) according to the hope (joyful and confident expectation) of eternal life.

Plain and simple, eternal life is future, just as Jesus said, in the age to come, we will receive eternal life.

I've refuted all your points.

Try again, there was a short circuit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, I will ask for the order of the following:

1. receiving the kingdom
2. entering the kingdom
3. inheriting the kingdom

If you can't answer, just say so.

This is what I said, but apparently that "short circuit" you mention at the end of your post must have wiped out all your memory board circuits, huh.
My point was ignored, and your question is irrelevant.
So, I'll explain what I said. Please deal with my point, BEFORE I answer more questions.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Hmmm, eternal salvation is for those who obey Him. Where did you get rewards are for those who obey Him?[/QUOTE]
From many, many passages that say so. Heb 5:9 obviously refers to those who have believed His claim as Messiah.

I thought you said you take the WHOLE counsel of God, but yet, you can't get past your pet scriptures to see the whole counsel. Anytime, a passage is given which states it is more than just believing, it is either irrelevant to you or you simply ignore what is said.

Please consider Phil 3:3-
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

My salvation is from Jesus Christ, who paid the price for my sins and has given me eternal life. I do not "glory in the flesh" as those do who think that eternal life can be lost by poor behaviors, etc.

I am afraid you are trying to deceive us. Hope IS NOT confidence. You are trying to pull a fast one. You may fool some with this, but I see right through it.

I explained it thoroughly. Scriptural "hope" IS confidence. The word in Heb 11:1 is: elpizō

1) to hope
1a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

Now, let's look at the definition of hope, which you give as elpis. You are trying to use the adjective 'confident' as the meaning of hope.

Actually, hope is 'EXPECTATION', not confidence, just as joyful isn't hope either.

Refuted by the above.

Let's look at the meaning of expectation from dictionary.com.

Irrelevant. I deal with Greek words for meanings, not Engish.

With this in mind, let's look at Titus 3:7 again -

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Same word as in Heb 11:1. FULL CONFIDENCE.

After being justified by grace, we are then heirs (future) according to the hope (joyful and confident expectation) of eternal life.

There it is, in your own words: CONFIDENT expectation.

Try again, there was a short circuit.

Hopefully, you'll be able to get a re-boot and be fine.

 

[JLB777]

Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE at Christ's coming (1 Thessalonians 5:23). That promise was NOT made to the church at Smyrna. Jesus told them to be faithful "until death." Furthermore, Jesus told Smyrna that those who overcame would not be hurt of the second death (damnation). Such a condition was NOT placed upon the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians had special dispensation.

So much for your erroneous claim that Paul's letters were for all believers of all ages.

Look up the Fallacy of Generalization.

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

The Coming of the Lord is where all those who are Christ's will be resurrected.

Paul's prayer was for them to be "preserved" blameless, at the Coming of the Lord.

The resurrection happens for those who are Christ at His Coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:20-24


By no stretch of the imagination was Paul somehow predicting that the Thessalonians would be "physically" alive when Jesus returned.


JLB

 

[EmSw]

This is what I said, but apparently that "short circuit" you mention at the end of your post must have wiped out all your memory board circuits, huh.
My point was ignored, and your question is irrelevant.
So, I'll explain what I said. Please deal with my point, BEFORE I answer more questions.

I see you have no answer. I will give my answer in place of your no answer.

1. we inherit the kingdom which is future.
2. we receive the kingdom at that time.
3. and finally, we enter the kingdom.

You can't enter the kingdom, and then inherit it.

I gave this:
Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Hmmm, eternal salvation is for those who obey Him. Where did you get rewards are for those who obey Him?

Here is your reply:
From many, many passages that say so. Heb 5:9 obviously refers to those who have believed His claim as Messiah.

It does nothing of the sort; it plainly refers to those who obey Him. With this passage included with your pet scriptures, we see it is those who believe and obey Him who are saved.

Jesus said to enter life, keep the commandments. It is those who obey Him by keeping the commandments who enter life or are saved. If you or anyone else wants to dispute, question, change, disobey, or ignore Jesus' very words, you make yourselves sons of disobedience. It is to those who obey Him that He becomes the source of eternal salvation.

You can hang onto your group's views and doctrines and try to attain salvation through human intelligence, or you can believe and obey EVERY word from the Savior Himself and know for sure your are saved. As Peter said, He has the words of eternal life. He alone is the Truth, the Word, the Savior, and Life.

Please consider Phil 3:3-
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

My salvation is from Jesus Christ, who paid the price for my sins and has given me eternal life. I do not "glory in the flesh" as those do who think that eternal life can be lost by poor behaviors, etc.

What was the price He paid for your sins?

I read where Jesus (after the cross) said in Luke 24:47, "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem".

If He paid for your sins on the cross, why proclaim to the nations repentance for the forgiveness of sins?

By the way, you can tell us the meaning of 'forgiveness' from the Greek. We would love to know what forgiveness means to you.

I explained it thoroughly. Scriptural "hope" IS confidence. The word in Heb 11:1 is: elpizō

1) to hope
1a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence

I will give you credit for being stubborn. But at least get the definition of hope correct.

'with joy and full confidence' is a prepositional phrase. I am sure you are aware what prepositional phrases are. They add a fuller description to the word they are modifying. In this case, they are modifying 'to wait'.

'Wait' is the meaning of 'Hope'. I am sure everyone else reading this agrees.

Same word as in Heb 11:1. FULL CONFIDENCE.

It is the confidence of things HOPED FOR, which includes eternal life and salvation.

After being justified by grace, we are then heirs (future) according to the hope (joyful and confident expectation) of eternal life (my post).

There it is, in your own words: CONFIDENT expectation.

How long will you keep trying to fool us? 'Confident' is an adjective; it modifies 'expectation' which is the meaning of hope.