Eph 1:4 exegeted

[extraordinary]

Assume what you wish ... Unsubscribing.

The FG2: Say what you wish ... Unsubscribed long ago.

Same goes for anyone who say there are NO verses that warn about losing eternal life!
Such people must be either liars or idiots or both.

Elsewhere, we have a guy who has just begun insisting on goin' thru the verses one by one.
I'll report back in a few days about this.
.

 

[Hillsage]

Same goes for anyone who say there are NO verses that warn about losing eternal life!liars
Such people must be either liars or idiots or both.
.

Not considering myself to be either, I'll continue to trust in the judge, whose judgments I believe to be more correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

es for anyone who say there are NO verses that warn about losing eternal life!
Such people must be either liars or idiots or both.

In fact, those who claim that the free gift of eternal life can be lost fit those descriptors.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The FG2: Say what you wish ... Unsubscribed long ago.

The eo has posted an untruth about what I have said. Please check your sources before posting your foot into your mouth.

 

[extraordinary]

Since this site is for friendly discussions ONLY

As usual, I'm way ahead of the curve ... I've done so already![FONT=&quot]
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[Hillsage]

Since this site is for friendly discussions ONLY

As usual, I'm way ahead of the curve ... I've done so already![FONT=&quot]
.
[/FONT]

Thank you JESUS!!!! There is undoubtedly a place for 'assurance', concerning our doctrinal positions, but there is certainly no place for 'arrogance'. Hopefully others will follow your lead. And, quite honestly those who are "way ahead of the curve" don't need to repent IMO.

Hopefully now, you can see why I believe that only 'AS MUCH OF THE SOUL..AS IS SAVED, WILL GO TO HEAVEN'. I believe you agree that the soul is the 'mind will emotion'. Tell me what would heaven be like if people went with souls 1/2 saved and bad attitudes prevailed like they do here on CF?

 

[extraordinary]

Hopefully now, you can see why I believe that only
'AS MUCH OF THE SOUL..AS IS SAVED, WILL GO TO HEAVEN'.
Tell me what would heaven be like if people went with souls 1/2 saved
and bad attitudes prevailed like they do here on CF?

Hopefully now, you can see why ...
all of us need some explanation of the mysterious words in red above!
WOW! ... Momma Mia, fat Garcia!
1/2 of the soul can go and da other 1/2 stays (somewhere)?
.

 

[Marvin Knox]

.......

At what point do you see a person being adopted? Is it when they believe or is it sometime afterward?

 

[Hillsage]

Hopefully now, you can see why ...
all of us need some explanation of the mysterious words in red above!
WOW! ... Momma Mia, fat Garcia!

.

As I've stated before, all the soul really does is measure spiritual growth. You are a spirit, you have a soul and you live in a mortal body. Almost all Christians are so lacking in this fundamental understanding that 'most' claim themselves to be 'body, soul and spirit. (IF they even believe we are triune) That is simply backwards, both in understanding as well as importance. GOD IS SPIRIT and we were made in His image...as a spirit. And then that spirit was placed into a body of clay/flesh. A body of flesh which God did not have when the Father/Word/Spirit first created man in their image.

The glorified body I have in heaven will be based upon how much of my soul I allowed/'participated in', to be sanctified here and now. How much of 'my mind' was laid down in submission to His mind, the mind of Christ. Those with a deathbed confession will have full cups in glory, for sure. But their cups will be small compared to a 'Billy Graham' cup (for example). And yet, in heaven, both 'the death bedder' and 'Billy G' will be humbly thankful that they are 'there' at all. But all thier praise/honor and glory will be given freely to Him who truly deserves it. And all the haughtiness/arrogance/judgmental ism that goes on here will be an honest embarrassment to us all.

1/2 of the soul can go and da other 1/2 stays (somewhere)?

No, it is destroyed by fire. You either submit to the purgative fire of the "Holy Ghost and FIRE" here and now, or you will be dealt with by the purgative fires of the judgment seat of Christ. As was the believer in 1Cor 3.

1CO 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

What "reward" is talked about? It's certainly not 'going to heaven'.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What is being "burned" to save this Christian whose foundation is Christ? His "works" are, but what does this really mean? A man does what's in his heart and the heart is simply the subconscious part of the soul.

To understand this requires more of a spiritual revelation and less of religious indoctrination. The 'fire of God' is not the same as OT 'fire from God'. Not one had a 'hot foot' or a 'hot head' experience on the day of Pentecost.

 

[FreeGrace2]

At what point do you see a person being adopted? Is it when they believe or is it sometime afterward?

This is a good question. The word for "sons" is huiothesias.

Thayer Definition:
1) adoption, adoption as sons
1a) that relationship which God was pleased to establish between himself and the Israelites in preference to all other nations
1b) the nature and condition of the true disciples in Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become sons of God
1c) the blessed state looked for in the future life after the visible return of Christ from heaven

This shows both an immediate and a future concept involved with adoption. One thing is sure; adoption in that time frame was totally different than what we today consider adoption. Back then, it had to do with the rights of the firstborn, and the adoption could be for a trusted servant, over any of the natural children.

One commentary equates 'huiosthesia' as "sonship" in Rom 8:15 and in v.23 relates it to the privileges that will be fully realized in the future when the "redemption of our body" (v.23) occurs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I've stated before, all the soul really does is measure spiritual growth. You are a spirit, you have a soul and you live in a mortal body. Almost all Christians are so lacking in this fundamental understanding that 'most' claim themselves to be 'body, soul and spirit. (IF they even believe we are triune) That is simply backwards, both in understanding as well as importance. GOD IS SPIRIT and we were made in His image...as a spirit. And then that spirit was placed into a body of clay/flesh. A body of flesh which God did not have when the Father/Word/Spirit first created man in their image.

God created Adam in their own image: that points to a body, a soul, and a spirit. Not just spirit. Adam's body is not a spirit. The body does contain the spirit. When Adam rebelled, he died both immediately (spiritual death) and over time (physical death). This is seen in the original Hebrew warning "in the day that you eat of it (tree of KOGAE), dying, you will die."

The word for death is found twice in the Hebew, but unfortunately never translated properly. The warning is clear; Adam's rebellion resulted in immediate separation from God (spiritual death), and his body began to wear down and out, ultimately resulting in physical death (separation of soul from the body). All humans are body with a live body and soul, but a dead human spirit. Which is why Paul told the Ephesians that they were "dead in their sins". This refers to their human spirits at birth. When one places their faith in Jesus Christ, they are regenerated, which refers to their human spirit.

Why is this important? Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that "they who worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus was acknowledging the necessity of having a living human spirit with which to properly worship God. That's why unbelievers cannot properly worship God. They need to be regenerated. And it is the human spirit where the Holy Spirit indwells. Why would God the Holy Spirit live within the fallen, sinful body or soul? That makes no sense. This clarifies 1 Jn 3:9 about those "those born of God cannot sin". He was referring to the fact that sin does not come from the human spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides. Yet we know that all believers continue to sin. So where does sin come from? The corrupt body/soul.

When a believer functions from his human spirit, he worships God, is filled and walking by means of the Holy Spirit, and cannot sin.

But when the believer functions from his body/soul, he is grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit, and cannot worship God. This is where sin comes from.

So, Adam was created trichotomous, became dichotomous through rebellion, and was restored to trichotomy by faith in Christ.

Since then, all humans are born dichotomous, and believers become trichotomous through faith in Christ.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is a good question. The word for "sons" is huiothesias.

Thayer Definition:
1) adoption, adoption as sons
1a) that relationship which God was pleased to establish between himself and the Israelites in preference to all other nations
1b) the nature and condition of the true disciples in Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become sons of God
1c) the blessed state looked for in the future life after the visible return of Christ from heaven

This shows both an immediate and a future concept involved with adoption. One thing is sure; adoption in that time frame was totally different than what we today consider adoption. Back then, it had to do with the rights of the firstborn, and the adoption could be for a trusted servant, over any of the natural children.

One commentary equates 'huiosthesia' as "sonship" in Rom 8:15 and in v.23 relates it to the privileges that will be fully realized in the future when the "redemption of our body" (v.23) occurs.

Let's come at this another way.

Does God only adopt believers?

Are all believers adopted?

If so, are believers adopted at the same time they become believers or sometime later? Is it more like the teaching that regeneration and faith happen at the same time? Or is it more like the teaching that regeneration comes first and faith is a later result?

 

[Hillsage]

God created Adam in their own image: that points to a body, a soul, and a spirit. Not just spirit. Adam's body is not a spirit. The body does contain the spirit. When Adam rebelled, he died both immediately (spiritual death) and over time (physical death). This is seen in the original Hebrew warning "in the day that you eat of it (tree of KOGAE), dying, you will die."

All I can say is scripture says "God IS Spirit" and you are defining God based upon YOUR IMAGE, or the image of man IMO.

Correct, 'Adam's body' was spirit it was dust. Dust which was created long after the existence of God, who was without beginning. Adam's 'spirit' never 'died'. All spirits are eternal, and to kill one would be like killing Casper the ghost...can't happen. If Adams spirit died immediately then scripture says it would have gone back to God upon death. And if it died immediately the body of Adam would have dropped dead immediately. A dead spirit couldn't give life to a body IMO.

"In the day that you eat of it" isn't about 'the tree' it's about "the day" they would die. And since they ate of the tree in the 'day before the flood,' that curse meant no one would live longer than a 1000 years. The definition of the Hebrew word for 'day' is determined by an associated article. And in this case that article is;

GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
A study of Genesis 1 will reveal that God created the heavens on one day and the earth on another. So how come it doesn't say 'in the days they were created'?

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Contextually here, we see that 'the day' was before God caused the rain, which was actually 1000 years after they sinned. Everyone died before the end of this 1000 year day, even Methuselah. A day doesn't mean 24 hours in Genesis unless defined so by associated articles eg "eveninng and morning" in chapter 1. The day they died is like the 'day of the locomotive'..which isn't 24 hours long. And you're right "dying thou shalt die" is a death sentance and not a pronouncement of drop dead immediately after biting. This was true for Adam's spirit and his body. But the soul may have 'died', I don't know.

Hate to quit, but I'm leaving town at 10, for a 120 mile bicycle ride on Sunday in Colorado...over three mountain passes. Hopefully this 65 year old flesh bucket can make it. The spirit is willing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's come at this another way.

Does God only adopt believers?

Are all believers adopted?

Yes, x 2.

If so, are believers adopted at the same time they become believers or sometime later?

The Greek word indicates both an immediate standing and a future life where the full effect of "sonship" is realized.

Is it more like the teaching that regeneration and faith happen at the same time? Or is it more like the teaching that regeneration comes first and faith is a later result?

I believe that Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly show that regeneration (being made alive) follows faith.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I just became a grandpa. Where do I post an announcement? See baby's pic in my profile page.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All I can say is scripture says "God IS Spirit" and you are defining God based upon YOUR IMAGE, or the image of man IMO.

IMHO, you've missunderstood my view. I have not defined God. The Bible defines man as being created in God's image. So your view is backward of my view, which lines up with Scripture.

Regarding the "defining of God", is He Triune, or not? Obviously yes, He is.

Did He create Adam, the first human being in the image of God? Obviously yes, He did.

So, if one rejects body, soul, and spirit as being what is referred to as being in the "image of God", what part of man reflects that image? If just spirit, the problem is ignoring the body and soul.

Correct, 'Adam's body' was spirit it was dust. Dust which was created long after the existence of God, who was without beginning. Adam's 'spirit' never 'died'. All spirits are eternal, and to kill one would be like killing Casper the ghost...can't happen. If Adams spirit died immediately then scripture says it would have gone back to God upon death. And if it died immediately the body of Adam would have dropped dead immediately. A dead spirit couldn't give life to a body IMO.

While there is some overlap in word usage and translations, so that both soul and spirit have been interchanged, there is a clear distinction between soul and spirit, as seen in Heb 4:12, and 1 Tim 5:21.

How would you explain the two deaths in God's warning against eating from the tree?

"In the day that you eat of it" isn't about 'the tree' it's about "the day" they would die. And since they ate of the tree in the 'day before the flood,' that curse meant no one would live longer than a 1000 years. The definition of the Hebrew word for 'day' is determined by an associated article. And in this case that article is;

GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
A study of Genesis 1 will reveal that God created the heavens on one day and the earth on another. So how come it doesn't say 'in the days they were created'?

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Contextually here, we see that 'the day' was before God caused the rain, which was actually 1000 years after they sinned. Everyone died before the end of this 1000 year day, even Methuselah. A day doesn't mean 24 hours in Genesis unless defined so by associated articles eg "eveninng and morning" in chapter 1. The day they died is like the 'day of the locomotive'..which isn't 24 hours long. And you're right "dying thou shalt die" is a death sentance and not a pronouncement of drop dead immediately after biting. This was true for Adam's spirit and his body. But the soul may have 'died', I don't know.

I don't see how one would think Adam's soul died but not his spirit. He clearly did die ON THAT DAY (the day he ate the fruit). The soul is the intellect and emotions, etc. The soul is eternal. Something did die on that day, and it couldn't have been his soul, or he would have ceased to exist. His spirit died, and he was separated from God (spiritual death). And Jesus told the woman that one must worship God in spirit and in truth. This refers to the human spirit, of which only regenerated persons (believers) have.

This makes total sense. I don't see the sense of your view. Maybe more explanation?

Hate to quit, but I'm leaving town at 10, for a 120 mile bicycle ride on Sunday in Colorado...over three mountain passes. Hopefully this 65 year old flesh bucket can make it. The spirit is willing.

Go for it!

Hopefully, the flesh isn't too weak.

ps: if I'm on a bike for more than 30 minutes, the buns are very unhappy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I just became a grandpa. Where do I post an announcement? See baby's pic in my profile page.

Congrats!! Boy or girl?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Congrats!! Boy or girl?

Girl, her name is Raven. Do you know where I am supposed to post my announcement?

 

[extraordinary]

As I've stated before, all the soul really does is measure spiritual growth.
You are a spirit, you have a soul and you live in a mortal body.
Almost all Christians ... claim themselves to be 'body, soul and spirit. (IF they even believe we are triune)
That is simply backwards, both in understanding as well as importance.
GOD IS SPIRIT and we were made in His image...as a spirit.
And then that spirit was placed into a body of clay/flesh.
A body of flesh which God did not have when the Father/Word/Spirit first created man in their image.

The glorified body I have in heaven will be based upon
how much of my soul I allowed/'participated in', to be sanctified here and now.
How much of 'my mind' was laid down in submission to His mind, the mind of Christ.

Okay, good, thanks for trying, butski I still don't get the red.
Perhaps you don't believe the soul is made up of mind, will, emotions.
These 3 are "measuring" spiritual growth? ... Aaaah, naaah, sorry no ceeegar!

Now, da blue ... that I do understand.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Girl, her name is Raven. Do you know where I am supposed to post my announcement?

Sorry, I don't. I don't know how to manage my "profile".

I'll bet Raven is a raving beauty.