Eph 1:4 exegeted

[Marvin Knox]

..............

[FONT=&quot]This idea that God elects, chooses, and predestines only those who are already believers is the big card that you always play. You have since I’ve been aware of your posts on anything to do with the way “Calvinists” interpret those words and exegete the passages that use those words. The obvious reason you labor this way of presenting these things is to make sure that God’s sovereignty isn’t presented in any way that would undermine your view of free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Whenever you say that God only does these things to “believers” – you are attempting to show that people believe first of their own free will and only those people who first do so are elected, chosen, or predestined.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think I need to defend my interpretation of your actions. As they say at Geico, “Everybody knows that!”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here’s an example from your post #114 aimed at me, “……..the "us" in v.4 and all of the other 10 times Paul used "us" or "we", he was referring to believers already. So the truth is that God has predestined BELIEVERS……….. You've made clear statements that are FALSE. No one has been predestined to believe. Believers are predestined to be adopted as sons………” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]With that as a backdrop I’ll lay out a few things and then attempt to make my main point about the reason why I said that you “proving” what vs. 4 says is absolutely unimportant – why I say that your entire thread has no real value except as an exercise of some sort - why I said that it is “vacuous”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I said earlier, “Adoption makes us believers and vice versa.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You responded, “There are no verses that teach this. Please refrain from opinions without Scriptural support. And Eph 1 doesn't give any support for that.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As shown in post #114:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I asked you, “Does God only adopt believers?” & “Are all believers adopted?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “Yes” to both questions.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I asked you, “If so, are believers adopted at the same time they become believers or sometime later?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “The Greek word indicates both an immediate standing and ……..”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So - while being adopted and being a believer are admittedly not exactly the same things – it is true that you can’t be one without being the other. Believers are adopted sons and adopted sons are believers. If you’ve seen one, you’ve seen the other. This is according to the plain meaning of scripture in my view - and also according to you. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If all of us are adopted as an “immediate standing” when we believe as you say – saying “believers are predestined to be adopted as sons” is to say that someone who is already a son is predestined to be become a son. That not only is not scriptural, it violates every rule of logic that I am aware of from my considerable study in logic. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The very use of the prefix “pre” demands that the thing being predestined has not already achieved the status to which it is being predestined. – DUH! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So logically the predestining must have been done by God before we were believers/adopted sons. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore God’s predestination is not of believers. God’s predestination is of we who only existed in the sovereignly predestinating mind of God long before we were believers (likely in eternity past). In other words the very way most everyone but yourself and perhaps a few others see the meaning of the concept.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When you say that all believers/adopted sons are chosen to be holy and blameless – you are saying that God has decided to make His predestinated ones holy and blameless. I might also add here that being holy and blameless is also "immediate standing" IMO. (It’s all predestined when you get right down to it. )

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Good systematic theology demands that the entirely of scripture be brought to bear on a passage to determine the meaning. You have taken a single passage and ignored even the two neighboring verses in an effort to escape something that seems to me to be clearly presented throughout in scripture.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That something is that (whatever part our wills may play in the things that happen ) we worship the eternally omniscient predestinating creator/sustainer of all things – the one who works all things after the council of His wise and perfect will. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He determined long before there was anything but Himself what would happen. He sent forth His Word to accomplish all of His will. All things were created by and for His Word who in His omnipresence holds together everything that exists. The scriptures teach that He doesn't simply inhabit some parallel universe while He allows us to do whatever we want without interference in our own universe. He is the one in whom we live and move and have our being.

That is the God I worship. I make no apologies for my faith. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Make of that what you will. He can defend His sovereign actions if He wants to. That's up to Him. As for me - I trust Him in all that He does (or allows if you will).

I also give Him full credit for anything good in me (including my faith) and take the blame for all that is unholy.

[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]When I said that your belaboring of verse 4 was useless - it was because who He is and what He does is so patently obvious from almost every quarter of scripture that whatever you managed to convince people of concerning verse 4 by itself wouldn’t change a thing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You may be able to prove that a few Calvinists have interpreted verse 4 in a way that can’t be proven when you look at verse 4 alone. But for all of their faults – most good Calvinists have tried to look at the hundreds of other scriptures that shed light on verse 4’s meaning before rendering a verdict.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IMO you cannot escape sovereign predestination simply by dividing up one verse with parentheses and placing your own commentary inside of them.

.
[/FONT]

 

[Jack Terrence]

I believe that Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly show that regeneration (being made alive) follows faith.

Ephesians 2:5 & 8 is NOT about regeneration at all. The elect are regenerated in their mother's womb as Isaac. It is about our legal standing before God, that is, our justification and nothing else.

or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:

Ephesians 2:5 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Furthermore, Paul said the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith, not from unbelief to faith (Romans 1:17). Abraham believed God BEFORE he believed unto justification.

 

[nobdysfool]

[FONT=&quot]This idea that God elects, chooses, and predestines only those who are already believers is the big card that you always play. You have since I’ve been aware of your posts on anything to do with the way “Calvinists” interpret those words and exegete the passages that use those words. The obvious reason you labor this way of presenting these things is to make sure that God’s sovereignty isn’t presented in any way that would undermine your view of free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Whenever you say that God only does these things to “believers” – you are attempting to show that people believe first of their own free will and only those people who first do so are elected, chosen, or predestined.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think I need to defend my interpretation of your actions. As they say at Geico, “Everybody knows that!”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here’s an example from your post #114 aimed at me, “……..the "us" in v.4 and all of the other 10 times Paul used "us" or "we", he was referring to believers already. So the truth is that God has predestined BELIEVERS……….. You've made clear statements that are FALSE. No one has been predestined to believe. Believers are predestined to be adopted as sons………” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]With that as a backdrop I’ll lay out a few things and then attempt to make my main point about the reason why I said that you “proving” what vs. 4 says is absolutely unimportant – why I say that your entire thread has no real value except as an exercise of some sort - why I said that it is “vacuous”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I said earlier, “Adoption makes us believers and vice versa.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You responded, “There are no verses that teach this. Please refrain from opinions without Scriptural support. And Eph 1 doesn't give any support for that.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As shown in post #114:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I asked you, “Does God only adopt believers?” & “Are all believers adopted?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “Yes” to both questions.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I asked you, “If so, are believers adopted at the same time they become believers or sometime later?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “The Greek word indicates both an immediate standing and ……..”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So - while being adopted and being a believer are admittedly not exactly the same things – it is true that you can’t be one without being the other. Believers are adopted sons and adopted sons are believers. If you’ve seen one, you’ve seen the other. This is according to the plain meaning of scripture in my view - and also according to you. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If all of us are adopted as an “immediate standing” when we believe as you say – saying “believers are predestined to be adopted as sons” is to say that someone who is already a son is predestined to be become a son. That not only is not scriptural, it violates every rule of logic that I am aware of from my considerable study in logic. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The very use of the prefix “pre” demands that the thing being predestined has not already achieved the status to which it is being predestined. – DUH! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So logically the predestining must have been done by God before we were believers/adopted sons. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore God’s predestination is not of believers. God’s predestination is of we who only existed in the sovereignly predestinating mind of God long before we were believers (likely in eternity past). In other words the very way most everyone but yourself and perhaps a few others see the meaning of the concept.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When you say that all believers/adopted sons are chosen to be holy and blameless – you are saying that God has decided to make His predestinated ones holy and blameless. I might also add here that being holy and blameless is also "immediate standing" IMO. (It’s all predestined when you get right down to it. )

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Good systematic theology demands that the entirely of scripture be brought to bear on a passage to determine the meaning. You have taken a single passage and ignored even the two neighboring verses in an effort to escape something that seems to me to be clearly presented throughout in scripture.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That something is that (whatever part our wills may play in the things that happen ) we worship the eternally omniscient predestinating creator/sustainer of all things – the one who works all things after the council of His wise and perfect will. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He determined long before there was anything but Himself what would happen. He sent forth His Word to accomplish all of His will. All things were created by and for His Word who in His omnipresence holds together everything that exists. The scriptures teach that He doesn't simply inhabit some parallel universe while He allows us to do whatever we want without interference in our own universe. He is the one in whom we live and move and have our being.

That is the God I worship. I make no apologies for my faith. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Make of that what you will. He can defend His sovereign actions if He wants to. That's up to Him. As for me - I trust Him in all that He does (or allows if you will).

I also give Him full credit for anything good in me (including my faith) and take the blame for all that is unholy.

[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]When I said that your belaboring of verse 4 was useless - it was because who He is and what He does is so patently obvious from almost every quarter of scripture that whatever you managed to convince people of concerning verse 4 by itself wouldn’t change a thing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You may be able to prove that a few Calvinists have interpreted verse 4 in a way that can’t be proven when you look at verse 4 alone. But for all of their faults – most good Calvinists have tried to look at the hundreds of other scriptures that shed light on verse 4’s meaning before rendering a verdict.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IMO you cannot escape sovereign predestination simply by dividing up one verse with parentheses and placing your own commentary inside of them.

.
[/FONT]

To this I would add that there is an inescapable fact of logic at play here: to predestine an outcome, the means to that outcome must also be predestined. In other words, to predestine a believer's adoption as a son, their becoming a believer must also be predestined, or the adoption as a son is an uncertainty.

An uncertainty cannot be predestined, or be said to be predestined. God does not deal with uncertainties. He has never said 'I wonder how this will all turn out?' He has never had any doubt about how His Purpose and Plan will be accomplished, or come into being. To quote Mr. Burns, God says, 'It's all proceeding according to My Plan'.

The so-called 'free will' paradigm has caused much confusion, and created a lot of powerless Christians, who think that they had something to do with their own salvation, and think that God wouldn't dare violate their precious 'free will', not realizing that every breath they take is provided by God, and every action, word or thought they take or have is foreknown by God, and predestined to occur by God. 'In Him we live and move and have our being' does not allow for randomness or libertarian free will.

We cannot fake out God. We cannot do anything that He doesn't know about and has always known about, even if we didn't even think of doing it before we did it. Libertarian free will is the echo of the original rebellion, the 5 'I Wills' of Lucifer, which were known that they would occur before Lucifer ever formulated the thoughts to adopt that attitude. It is also the echo of the original question to Eve by the serpent, 'Yea, hath God said...?'

To recap: If an outcome is predestined by God to occur, all of the means leading up to that outcome must also be predestined. It cannot be any other way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This idea that God elects, chooses, and predestines only those who are already believers is the big card that you always play.

The the ONLY reason, that Scripture actually SAYS so.

You have since I’ve been aware of your posts on anything to do with the way “Calvinists” interpret those words and exegete the passages that use those words.

I always accept what the Word SAYS.

The obvious reason you labor this way of presenting these things is to make sure that God’s sovereignty isn’t presented in any way that would undermine your view of free will.

Of course, this is silly. I fully accept God's sovereignty. I just don't see it the way Calvinists do. And I'm not laboring at anything. Rather, it seems Calvinists labor very hard to remove any and all of man's full accountability for anything by elevating God's sovereignty to the level of total dictator, which He isn't even close to. For some reason, Calvinists cannot accept the freedom that God has given to His creatures; freedom to either accept or reject His words, His promises, etc. I understand that such freedom threatens the theology of Calvinism. Which is why Calvinists labor so hard against man's freedom.

But, know this: man's freedom in no way threatens or diminishes God's sovereignty. Unfortunately, it seems Calvinists cannot reconcile the two.

[FONT=&quot]Whenever you say that God only does these things to “believers” – you are attempting to show that people believe first of their own free will and only those people who first do so are elected, chosen, or predestined.[/FONT]

How about that! Because the Bible teaches that. I've repeatedly requested verses that teach that God is the cause of who believes, or that God chooses who will believe (RT doctrine of election) and no one has come forward with any verses that clearly and unambiguously teach either one.

Here’s an example from your post #114 aimed at me, “……..the "us" in v.4 and all of the other 10 times Paul used "us" or "we", he was referring to believers already. So the truth is that God has predestined BELIEVERS……….. You've made clear statements that are FALSE. No one has been predestined to believe. Believers are predestined to be adopted as sons………”

What's wrong with what I posted. The verse very clearly SAYS that. The "us" means believers. The passage proves that. Paul was addressing BELIEVERS, and he actually defines "us" in 1:19. So I'm simply aligned with what Scripture SAYS.

[FONT=&quot]With that as a backdrop I’ll lay out a few things and then attempt to make my main point about the reason why I said that you “proving” what vs. 4 says is absolutely unimportant – why I say that your entire thread has no real value except as an exercise of some sort - why I said that it is “vacuous”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I said earlier, “Adoption makes us believers and vice versa.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You responded, “There are no verses that teach this. Please refrain from opinions without Scriptural support. And Eph 1 doesn't give any support for that.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As shown in post #114:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I asked you, “Does God only adopt believers?” & “Are all believers adopted?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “Yes” to both questions.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I asked you, “If so, are believers adopted at the same time they become believers or sometime later?”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You answered me, “The Greek word indicates both an immediate standing and ……..”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So - while being adopted and being a believer are admittedly not exactly the same things – it is true that you can’t be one without being the other. Believers are adopted sons and adopted sons are believers. If you’ve seen one, you’ve seen the other. This is according to the plain meaning of scripture in my view - and also according to you. [/FONT]

So far, so good.

[FONT=&quot]If all of us are adopted as an “immediate standing” when we believe as you say – saying “believers are predestined to be adopted as sons” is to say that someone who is already a son is predestined to be become a son. That not only is not scriptural, it violates every rule of logic that I am aware of from my considerable study in logic. [/FONT]

Seems you've ignored the "future" part the adoption, which I explained and provided lexical support for. Paul in Eph 1 is obviously referring to the future part of election.

[FONT=&quot]The very use of the prefix “pre” demands that the thing being predestined has not already achieved the status to which it is being predestined. – DUH! [/FONT]

Again, there are immediate and future concepts involved in adoption.

[FONT=&quot]So logically the predestining must have been done by God before we were believers/adopted sons. [/FONT]

I've never argued otherwise. Of course God's decisions are all from eternity past. The point by Paul was that God adopted believers, and chose believers. And yes, He knows each one by name, but chose and adopted corporately.

Therefore God’s predestination is not of believers. God’s predestination is of we who only existed in the sovereignly predestinating mind of God long before we were believers (likely in eternity past).

Why would the timing of God's electing and adopting support your point rather than mine? I'm fully aware of WHEN He elected and adopted. But because He is omniscient, He certainly knows all who will believe, and on that basis chose and adopted them. I know that challenges the RT view of sovereignty.

In other words the very way most everyone but yourself and perhaps a few others see the meaning of the concept.

Uh, theology by democracy? I don't think so.

When you say that all believers/adopted sons are chosen to be holy and blameless – you are saying that God has decided to make His predestinated ones holy and blameless. I might also add here that being holy and blameless is also "immediate standing" IMO. (It’s all predestined when you get right down to it. )

Yep.

Good systematic theology demands that the entirely of scripture be brought to bear on a passage to determine the meaning. You have taken a single passage and ignored even the two neighboring verses in an effort to escape something that seems to me to be clearly presented throughout in scripture.

I haven't done that. If your claim is true, please explain why and how it is.

That something is that (whatever part our wills may play in the things that happen ) we worship the eternally omniscient predestinating creator/sustainer of all things – the one who works all things after the council of His wise and perfect will.

And I agree!

He determined long before there was anything but Himself what would happen. He sent forth His Word to accomplish all of His will. All things were created by and for His Word who in His omnipresence holds together everything that exists. The scriptures teach that He doesn't simply inhabit some parallel universe while He allows us to do whatever we want without interference in our own universe. He is the one in whom we live and move and have our being.

Of course all of this is true, which I've never suggested otherwise. But it seems for some unkown reason, you think my view wouldn't agree with this.

That is the God I worship. I make no apologies for my faith.

Nor should you. And I don't either.

Make of that what you will. He can defend His sovereign actions if He wants to. That's up to Him. As for me - I trust Him in all that He does (or allows if you will).

There's nothing here that I disagree with, though it seems you might have a different view.

I also give Him full credit for anything good in me (including my faith) and take the blame for all that is unholy.

As all of us should. ("us" = believers).

When I said that your belaboring of verse 4 was useless - it was because who He is and what He does is so patently obvious from almost every quarter of scripture that whatever you managed to convince people of concerning verse 4 by itself wouldn’t change a thing.

Since no one has exegeted the verse to prove my exegesis wrong, there is no reason to adopt the RT view.

You may be able to prove that a few Calvinists have interpreted verse 4 in a way that can’t be proven when you look at verse 4 alone. But for all of their faults – most good Calvinists have tried to look at the hundreds of other scriptures that shed light on verse 4’s meaning before rendering a verdict.

OK, fair enough. What verse(s) say that God chooses who will believe?

IMO you cannot escape sovereign predestination simply by dividing up one verse with parentheses and placing your own commentary inside of them.

Since no one has demonstrated that my exegesis is wrong, there is no reason to adopt a different view.

I know what Calvinists think about that verse, but none has exegeted it to prove that mine is in error. What I've seen is just disagreement and a lot of explanations without exegesis.

When my exegesis can be refuted, I'll obviously change my view.

Btw, all I did was explain who the "us" was in v.4 If my commentary within the parentheses is wrong, please provide an exegesis with parentheses of your commentary.

I supported my view of "us" with 1:19. I used Paul's own words and definition. If that can be refuted, I would be happy to reconsider.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 2:5 & 8 is NOT about regeneration at all.

Apparently we have different understandings of what "being made alive" means. I'll stick with it meaning regeneration, or being born again. I cannot imagine what it might mean to others.

The elect are regenerated in their mother's womb as Isaac. It is about our legal standing before God, that is, our justification and nothing else.

In the womb, huh? What verses say that, or clearly indicate that? I know from the Greek grammar rules that 1 Jn 5:1 clearly indicates that faith and regeneration occur at the same time. So there's some 'splainin to do on your part.

or else this may be understood of justification; men are dead in a legal sense, and on account of sin, are under the sentence of death; though they naturally think themselves alive, and in a good state; but when the Spirit of God comes, he strikes dead all their hopes of life by a covenant of works; not merely by letting in the terrors of the law upon the conscience, but by showing the spirituality of it, and the exceeding sinfulness of sin; and how incapable they are of satisfying the law, for the transgressions of it; and then he works faith in them, whereby they revive and live; they see pardon and righteousness in Christ, and pray for the one, and plead the other; and also lay hold and live upon the righteousness of Christ, when the Spirit seals up the pardon of their sins to them, and passes the sentence of justification on them, and so they reckon themselves alive unto God; and this is the justification of life, the Scripture speaks of; and this is in consequence of their being quickened with Christ, at the time of his resurrection; for when he rose from the dead, they rose with him; when he was justified, they were justified in him; and in this sense when he was quickened, they were quickened with him:

Wow, one long and very confusing sentence. Sorry, but I have no idea what your point is here. I can only repeat what Paul told the Ephesian believers, all of who were chosen (1:4) in 2:1; they were born dead in their sins.

Furthermore, Paul said the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith, not from unbelief to faith (Romans 1:17). Abraham believed God BEFORE he believed unto justification.

Correction. Abraham believed God and it was accounted/credited to him as righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

To this I would add that there is an inescapable fact of logic at play here: to predestine an outcome, the means to that outcome must also be predestined. In other words, to predestine a believer's adoption as a son, their becoming a believer must also be predestined, or the adoption as a son is an uncertainty.

To really apply logic here, the "means" to the adoption isn't really being a believer, but God Himself as the "means" to the adoption.

Seems to me that your view is that being a believer is the means to adoption, but that would place the cause of one's adoption on being a believer, or even the action of believing, which cannot be true.

God is the cause of the adoption, obviously, and the cause of election, obviously. He chooses who to adopt and elect. And Eph 1:4 is clear enough that He has chosen "us"; the "us" being believers, obviously. Because he defined "us" in 1:19 very clearly.

An uncertainty cannot be predestined, or be said to be predestined.

There is no issue of "uncertainly" in who God has elected/adopted. He knows all things.

God does not deal with uncertainties.

He doesn't because He can't. He can't because of the fact that He is omniscient. Therefore, there are no uncertainties with God.

I have no idea what this idea was even brought up.

The so-called 'free will' paradigm has caused much confusion, and created a lot of powerless Christians, who think that they had something to do with their own salvation, and think that God wouldn't dare violate their precious 'free will', not realizing that every breath they take is provided by God, and every action, word or thought they take or have is foreknown by God, and predestined to occur by God. 'In Him we live and move and have our being' does not allow for randomness or libertarian free will.

Such believers who think what is claimed here are very confused. No act of believing has saving powers, period. Pleas take note of my claim here, so I won't be accused of false ideas.

The reality is that God saves those who believe, because 1 Cor 1:21 actually says so. Which is why I believe it. The same goes for election and adoption; God elects and adopts believers. Because Eph 1:4 says so. Which is why I believe it.

We cannot fake out God.

Goes without saying.

We cannot do anything that He doesn't know about and has always known about, even if we didn't even think of doing it before we did it. Libertarian free will is the echo of the original rebellion, the 5 'I Wills' of Lucifer, which were known that they would occur before Lucifer ever formulated the thoughts to adopt that attitude. It is also the echo of the original question to Eve by the serpent, 'Yea, hath God said...?'

None of this is relevant. Free will, which is what you seem to be attacking is only freedom to either accept God's promises or reject them. Nothing more.

I'm tired of the silly phrase "libertarian free will", as if it's something 'speshul', or something. There is no power in freedom.

In fact, Paul tells us that it is the "power of God FOR salvation to everyone who believes". Again, the power is in God FOR salvation, not in free will to save.

To recap: If an outcome is predestined by God to occur, all of the means leading up to that outcome must also be predestined. It cannot be any other way.

The means resides with God. So basically your claim is that God predestined Himself to predestinate some humans. That is silly.

You've misunderstood and are confused about what "means" means.

 

[extraordinary]

.
FG2, you actually are progressing month by month in your understanding of spiritual matters!
Praise God!
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

.
FG2, you actually are progressing month by month in your understanding of spiritual matters!
Praise God!
.

And your posts continue to be insulting. As long as your posts preach Pharisee styled salvation, they teach false doctrine.

The Pharisees denied God's grace, which your claims about eternal life also do. Taking the verses provided to support your view literally is the problem.

Not all verses are to be taken literally, or at least not when such an understanding creates a direct contradiction with other verses clear message.

I've provided clear verses about the believer's secure standing in God, none of which you've refuted, or exegeted to show those verses don't say what I have taken them to say.

If your verses actually mean loss of eternal life, then Scripture is woefully contradicted. Period. I reject that idea completely.

Failure to deal with the verses I've provided by continuing to shout out the verses you've found indicates the chink in your view.

 

[nobdysfool]

To really apply logic here, the "means" to the adoption isn't really being a believer, but God Himself as the "means" to the adoption.

Seems to me you are purposely misunderstanding what I am saying. Ultimately, yes, Salvation is God's to give. We don't do anything other than believe to obtain it. But that is not my point. You rightly say that God has predestined believers to be adopted as sons. My point is that since they first must be believers, to predestine their adoption is to also predestine their belief.

Seems to me that your view is that being a believer is the means to adoption, but that would place the cause of one's adoption on being a believer, or even the action of believing, which cannot be true.

That is not what I said. I never said that their belief caused their adoption. That is twisting what I said.

God is the cause of the adoption, obviously, and the cause of election, obviously. He chooses who to adopt and elect. And Eph 1:4 is clear enough that He has chosen 'us'; the 'us' being believers, obviously. Because he defined us in 1:19 very clearly.

I really have no argument with that. What I do have argument with is the idea implied, that one must first believe before God chooses them. That implies an action in Salvation outside of God's action.

There is no issue of 'uncertainty' in who God has elected/adopted. He knows all things.

I was not arguing for that, I was arguing against that, trying to highlight the utter absurdity of it. perhaps you missed that.

He doesn't because He can't. He can't because of the fact that He is omniscient. Therefore, there are no uncertainties with God.

Exactly!

I have no idea what this idea was even brought up.

Then you weren't really following my point, rather you were looking for things to pick at. There are people out there (Open Theists) who don't believe that God is Omniscient, although they won't admit to it when put that way.

Such believers who think what is claimed here are very confused. No act of believing has saving powers, period. Pleas take note of my claim here, so I won't be accused of false ideas.

OK, I'll remember that.

The reality is that God saves those who believe, because 1 Cor 1:21 actually says so. Which is why I believe it. The same goes for election and adoption; God elects and adopts believers. Because Eph 1:4 says so. Which is why I believe it.

But you take those statements to conclusions that don't square with the Word, taken as a whole.

None of this is relevant. Free will, which is what you seem to be attacking is only freedom to either accept God's promises or reject them. Nothing more.

Well that's different.

I'm tired of the silly phrase 'libertarian free will', as if it's something 'speshul', or something. There is no power in freedom.

In fact, Paul tells us that it is the 'power of God FOR salvation to everyone who believes'. Again, the power is in God FOR salvation, not in free will to save.

I agree, and yet you argue for a belief that is BEFORE God does anything.

The means resides with God. So basically your claim is that God predestined Himself to predestinate some humans. That is silly.

Actually, you're the silly one, because that's not what I said.

You've misunderstood and are confused about what 'means' means.

No, you are confused about what I said, primarily because you have never done anything but pick apart and criticize what I've said, primarily because I support a Calvinistic understanding of Scripture, so in your mind I can't possibly be right on anything I say. Your bias shows in neon colors. You clearly missed my point here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Seems to me you are purposely misunderstanding what I am saying. Ultimately, yes, Salvation is God's to give. We don't do anything other than believe to obtain it. But that is not my point. You rightly say that God has predestined believers to be adopted as sons. My point is that since they first must be believers, to predestine their adoption is to also predestine their belief.

I explained why that is not true. You've confused the meaning of "means".

That is not what I said. I never said that their belief caused their adoption. That is twisting what I said.

Go back and review. What was the "means" to adoption that was predestined?

I really have no argument with that. What I do have argument with is the idea implied, that one must first believe before God chooses them.

I should think you would, given RT, but that's exactly what Paul wrote. "God chose US". And Paul defined the "us" in 1:19. No argument.

That implies an action in Salvation outside of God's action.

Huh?

No, you are confused about what I said, primarily because you have never done anything but pick apart and criticize what I've said, primarily because I support a Calvinistic understanding of Scripture, so in your mind I can't possibly be right on anything I say. Your bias shows in neon colors. You clearly missed my point here.

Shall I hold up a mirror?

 

[nobdysfool]

I explained why that is not true. You've confused the meaning of 'means'

Quibble about a word and miss the larger point. Let me say it another way. If one is predestined to the adoption as a son, the events which lead up to that adoption must also be predestined. The reason? Given that the predestined adoption is certain, the person must also be predestined to salvation, as there is no such thing as a unsaved adopted son. Therefore their belief was also predestined, and is just as certain as the adoption.

I should think you would, given RT, but that's exactly what Paul wrote. 'God chose US'. And Paul defined the 'us' in 1:19. No argument.

You can get that definition if you ignore the context, because that's not what Paul was talking about.

That implies an action in Salvation outside of God's action.

Huh?

You're the one always arguing that God saves believers, which implies that their belief is not in any way sourced, even indirectly, in God. They believe all by themselves, and THEN God saves them. That implies a reward for right behavior, and opens you to the charge of salvation by merit, or right actions, i.e. works. You deny that charge (as you should), but it still leaves a problem with how you see salvation happening. You also indicate that God's election, i.e. choosing happens after a person believes, which does not square with other scriptures which indicate that election happens before the foundation of the world, as does predestination.

Shall I hold up a mirror?

Only if you're looking at yourself in it.

 

[extraordinary]

If your verses actually mean loss of eternal life, then Scripture is woefully contradicted. Period.
I reject that idea completely.

Sorry, but my verses mean what dey clearly say!
Thou must findest a way to amalgamate (copulate, combine, fit together) both sides of the coin.
Because we duz have one enormously valuable gold coin here!

P.S. I've already explained how dey fit together, but what da hay, no one pays any attention.

Adios, from the one who has the bestest gold coin of dem all (both sides of it too)!

When I call Rolf out of his house, he always complains: "What, the FG2 again!!!"
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Quibble about a word and miss the larger point. Let me say it another way. If one is predestined to the adoption as a son, the events which lead up to that adoption must also be predestined. The reason? Given that the predestined adoption is certain, the person must also be predestined to salvation, as there is no such thing as a unsaved adopted son. Therefore their belief was also predestined, and is just as certain as the adoption.

I've explained why that is not true, though you may think it is true. There is nothing to prohibit God from choosing believers to be saved AND to be adopted as sons. All at the same time. No problem at all.

You can get that definition if you ignore the context, because that's not what Paul was talking about.

If "us" doesn't mean 'believers', please provide another word than "us" to clarify what you think Paul meant.

You're the one always arguing that God saves believers, which implies that their belief is not in any way sourced, even indirectly, in God.

That's what 1 Cor 1:21 actually SAYS, which is why I "always argue" that God saves believers. It SAYS exactly that!!

They believe all by themselves, and THEN God saves them.

That's only difficult to accept if one rejects the fact that God created mankind with freedom to either accept or reject His promises.

The problem I have with Calvinism is its failure to provide verses that clearly teach what it claims.

That implies a reward for right behavior, and opens you to the charge of salvation by merit, or right actions, i.e. works.

Except Paul headed all that off "at the pass" in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 by distinguishing between works and faith. Faith or belief isn't a work. Paul made that clear. So there is NO implication of your claim here.

You deny that charge (as you should), but it still leaves a problem with how you see salvation happening.

Please finish your point by explaining HOW there is a problem.

You also indicate that God's election, i.e. choosing happens after a person believes, which does not square with other scriptures which indicate that election happens before the foundation of the world, as does predestination.

No, the choosing happened before the foundation of the world, as Paul said it did. And what God elected before the foundation of the world was that all believers would be holy and blameless. That's our "calling and election", btw.

Only if you're looking at yourself in it.

It wasn't for me. I'm just trying to help.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, but my verses mean what dey clearly say!

If so, then please exegete both John 10:38,39 and Rom 8:38,39, which denies that anyone (which would include self) nor anything present or future can separate us from the love of God.

Thou must findest a way to amalgamate (copulate, combine, fit together) both sides of the coin.

I have. The problem of contradictory passages is all on you.

Because we duz have one enormously valuable gold coin here!

P.S. I've already explained how dey fit together, but what da hay, no one pays any attention.

I pay attention to truth. Your view sides with the Pharisees, and we all know what Jesus thought of their side.
John 5:39
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

Like the Pharisees, you've "seasrched the Scriptures because you think that in them (the verses you cling to) you have eternal life", but as Jesus points out, eternal life is IN HIM, not in works.

Jn 3:15,16,18
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

Eternal life is all about faith in Christ, not works.

 

[extraordinary]

Eternal life is all about faith in Christ, not works.

I haz time for one works verse to embarrass you ...

[FONT=&quot]“… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Guess you ain't accepted by Him. Sorry, but thou insists!
.

 

[EmSw]

Eternal life is all about faith in Christ, not works.

Luke 13
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,
24 “STRIVE to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
26 then you will begin to say, ‘we ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out".

FG2, are you striving (to endeavour with strenuous zeal, to obtain something) to enter through the narrow gate?

As Jesus said, many will seek to enter and will not be able. Why? They never endeavored to enter to obtain it. Those who endeavor are those who exert themselves to do or effect something, in other words, to make an effort.

How will one live eternally if he doesn't enter the narrow gate? Perhaps they think going through another way will give them eternal life. I have seen plenty who think they can by-pass Jesus' words and get into the Kingdom of God.

Many say they believe in Him, but ignore His words. Ignoring His words, not heeding or obeying His commands will not get them through the narrow gate. Instead they will hear the Savior say - "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity".

How can one possibly think they will enter the Kingdom of God when they can't even obey the Savior? Perhaps they have heard and believed another gospel which isn't the gospel of the kingdom which Jesus preached.

So, I ask again, are you striving to enter through the narrow gate?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Eternal life is all about faith in Christ, not works.

I haz time for one works verse to embarrass you ...

“… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

Why should I be embarrassed by this verse? It has nothing to do with gaining eternal life. It's how believers (those who have eternal life) are supposed to live.

Guess you ain't accepted by Him. Sorry, but thou insists!

Like your doctrines, your guesses are in error.

You've made clear your view that eternal life is by works, yet the Bible is clear that eternal life is by faith in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Luke 13
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,
24 “STRIVE to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’
26 then you will begin to say, ‘we ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’
27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out".

FG2, are you striving (to endeavour with strenuous zeal, to obtain something) to enter through the narrow gate?

I've already entered through the narrow gate.

As Jesus said, many will seek to enter and will not be able. Why? They never endeavored to enter to obtain it. Those who endeavor are those who exert themselves to do or effect something, in other words, to make an effort.

Been through the gate a long time ago.

How will one live eternally if he doesn't enter the narrow gate?

One can't, obviously.

Perhaps they think going through another way will give them eternal life. I have seen plenty who think they can by-pass Jesus' words and get into the Kingdom of God.

Correct. Some even believe that their works will get them in, such as eo and the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

Many say they believe in Him, but ignore His words. Ignoring His words, not heeding or obeying His commands will not get them through the narrow gate. Instead they will hear the Savior say - "Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity".

You've conflated different things, in a vain attempt to make a point. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 never said anything about belief or faith, and it's clear from what they were appealing to Him with, that they thought their works would get them in.

btw, what are you trusting in to enter the kingdom of God?

How can one possibly think they will enter the Kingdom of God when they can't even obey the Savior? Perhaps they have heard and believed another gospel which isn't the gospel of the kingdom which Jesus preached.

Here's what Jesus SAID about eternal life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Do you believe what Jesus said?

So, I ask again, are you striving to enter through the narrow gate?

So, I answer again, I already have entered through the narrow gate?

And, I will ask this: when does one actually enter through the gate; during their life or only at the end of it?

 

[EmSw]

I've already entered through the narrow gate.

Been through the gate a long time ago.

Since you like Greek words, why not tell us what 'strive' means. Since it is by 'striving' that we enter the narrow gate, surely this is the way you entered.

One can't, obviously.

Exactly.

Correct. Some even believe that their works will get them in, such as eo and the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.

What got the sheep in according to Matthew 25:33-35? The answer is in the verses listed; no need to go anywhere else.

You've conflated different things, in a vain attempt to make a point. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 never said anything about belief or faith, and it's clear from what they were appealing to Him with, that they thought their works would get them in.

It was their iniquity which kept them out.

I Corinthians 6 -
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5 -
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5 -
3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

btw, what are you trusting in to enter the kingdom of God?

Jesus, who is Truth Itself, and every word He spoke.

Matthew 19:17
"But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments".

Here's what Jesus SAID about eternal life:
...
Do you believe what Jesus said?

I believe every word proceeding from Him, including, "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

So, I answer again, I already have entered through the narrow gate?

And, I will ask this: when does one actually enter through the gate; during their life or only at the end of it?

When does Jesus raise to life, those who believe?

John 6:40 -
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

When does one receive eternal life?

Mark 10:30 - but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

I know you like to say you have eternal life by faith. However, we see faith is the substance of things 'HOPED FOR'. We have the hope of eternal life:

Titus 1:2 - in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3:7 - so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We also have the hope of salvation -

Romans 8 -
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I will ask the same question - who hopes for what he already sees?

If we hope for what we do not see (eternal life, salvation), we eagerly await it with perseverance.

Do you agree we are heirs according to the hope of eternal life?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Eternal life is all about faith in Christ, not works.

You had a pretty good discussion going here on this thread. Even though many including myself disagree with some of your positions the discussion has remain relatively civil.

But who left the door open and let that “extraordinary” obnoxious buffoon come in? His ridiculous manner has managed to kill his own thread, “[FONT=&quot]OSASers must believe that God created human robots!” His other thread, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Scripture threatens loss of salvation to pre-tribulationists” is well on the way to the thread graveyard. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If I thought that he was simply an obnoxious buffoon I probably wouldn’t bother to comment on him. But I believe that it goes deeper with him. I believe that he is a false teacher – not just a mistaken idiot. One need only look through some of his posts to see the truth of the old adege, "By their fruits ye shall know them!" I’ll warn against him every chance I get until the moderators tell me to stop.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]EmSw, on the other hand, is simply mistaken. I don’t agree with his position. But I don’t think that there is any ill intent. The doctrine he has subscribed to is very dangerous and it even runs counter to the graceful doctrine that you and I subscribe to. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I wish these works oriented doctrines had stayed elsewhere. But they haven’t. I’ve sworn off talking directly to the buffoon. (Of course I did the same thing concerning you at one time.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ) So I might not be entering in again until we get back on track if that happens at all. Maybe I will with EmSw. But not with the false teacher.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I have a point or two for you. But that will have to wait until someone shuts the barn door again.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By the way – it always feels funny taking your side in a discussion. I'll savor it while I can. [/FONT]

.