Eph 1:4 exegeted

[FreeGrace2]

It says He chose "us", not He chose everyone. Of course that's talking about certain people vs every human being that has ever lived.

Huh?? Why would one think I was suggesting that he meant "everyone", when I have been crystal clear from the OP forward that "us" means believers, not everyone. Your error is astounding.

I went into detail who the "us" was. Why are you claiming I'm not identifying the "us"? It took no effort.

Basically, your claim amounts to this: God chose the chosen. Or, God elected the elect. How is that helpful? It isn't. Further, is strongly indicates that there are at least 2 elections. No one is called the "elect" UNTIL they have been elected. And Eph 1:4 says that God chose us. If that means "elect", they they would have had to be already elect. So, the use of "elect" for "us" just doesn't work. Obviously.

I never said the "us" that God chose and predestined to adoption as sons according the the purpose of His own will would not be believers. I'm not sure where you got that from.

By saying that God chose the chosen, or God elected the elect. That's where.

That's very muddy thinking. Of course the "us" that are chosen are the elect. That's what chosen means. God has chosen "us" or God has "elected" us.

Well, there it is. In black and white. So, please explain why God would choose those who have already been chosen?

Again, you misunderstood me if you think those that God has chosen before the foundation of the world would not be believers. If I was unclear I apologize, but yes those elected, chosen, lavished with grace, to whom the mystery of God's will is revealed, etc will be believers.

To be very clear, do you believe this election causes the elected ones to believe?

Well of course, we always look at context first. Paul was writing a letter to a Church. Immediate context "us" was Paul and those He wrote to. We know that scripture is for our benefit also and we can apply the truths to our lives. If we believe, then we know we have been chosen to be conformed to the ...etc.

Please demonstate from the verse that those elected would believe. In that order.

 

[Hammster]

Please show me where I evef said that is responsible for his own holiness and blamelessness. There is no excuse for misreading my posts and then posting such misunderstanding.

I'm fully aware of 2 Pet 1:3-10. God has given believers (us) everything we need for life and godliness. I've never said nor suggested that we produce our own holiness. That is absurd on its face and I'm sure that you know better than to think that from my posts. So, what is the agenda here?

I invite your exegesis of Eph 1:4.

The repeated misrepresentations of my view isn't helpful for your side. But it does demonstrate the possibility of some kind of agenda going on.

Oh, how you backtrack.

Seems your view is that this election causes the result of being holy and blameless? I don't think so. Given the many other verses where believers are commanded to be holy and blameless, God isn't the cause. If He were, there would be no reason for the command. It would just happen.

If God isn't the cause, who is?

 

[stenerson]

Basically, your claim amounts to this: God chose the chosen. Or, God elected the elect. How is that helpful? It isn't. Further, is strongly indicates that there are at least 2 elections. No one is called the "elect" UNTIL they have been elected. And Eph 1:4 says that God chose us. If that means "elect", they they would have had to be already elect. So, the use of "elect" for "us" just doesn't work. Obviously.

Oh boy, you're all twisted up.. That's what happens when you put so much effort into refuting Paul's plain and clear message. I simply let Paul define who the chosen or elect are. And I simply quoted Paul. Of course the elected are elected and the chosen are chosen. But we get more detail about these that were chosen from the foundation of the world. The passage tells us (I'll repeat, take a deep breath, pause and read):
that he's talking about those chosen before the foundation of the world, those predestined to adoption as sons according the the purpose of His own will, those that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, those he hath made accepted in the beloved, those he hath abounded toward "us" in all wisdom and prudence, those to who he has made known unto "us" the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, those He predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, those who have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, etc.
Paul goes into detail concerning the "us" that were chosen.

By saying that God chose the chosen, or God elected the elect. That's where.

Of course God chose the chosen or elected the elected. Why would anyone have to defend that?

To be very clear, do you believe this election causes the elected ones to believe?

Of course, why would I go against scripture. This passage in Ephesians makes it clear that even the faith which grabs hold of the Gospel promises is a gift from God. The Psalmist agreed:

psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

 

[Foghorn]

Oh boy, you're all twisted up.. That's what happens when to put so much effort into refuting Paul's plain and clear message. I simply let Paul define who the chosen or elect are. And I simply quoted Paul. Of course the elected are elected and the chosen are chosen. But we get more detail about these that were chosen from the foundation of the world. The passage tells us (I'll repeat, take a deep breath, pause and read):
that he's talking about those chosen before the foundation of the world, those predestined to adoption as sons according the the purpose of His own will, those that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, those he hath made accepted in the beloved, those he hath abounded toward "us" in all wisdom and prudence, those to who he has made known unto "us" the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, those He predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, those who have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, etc.
Paul goes into detail concerning the "us" that were chosen.



Of course God chose the chose or elected the elected. Why would anyone have to defend that?



Of course, why would I go against scripture. This passage in Ephesians makes it clear that even the faith which grabs hold of the Gospel promises is a gift from God. The Psalmist agreed:

psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

All twisted up, is right!

 

[Danoh]

Per Romans 5-8, Christ died in our stead, that, once we believe that form of doctrine which was delivered unto us, we are made the righteousness of God IN His Son, that we then walk in that righteousness that we now have IN Him, which is what empowers our ability to walk in Him.

The most depraved of infividuals has the ability to believe. For example, that what harm he does to others does not extend to his children. Or, that the chair he is about to sit on will hold him.

He has the free will to believe; to excersize faith in one thing or another.

A comparison of passages such as 1 Thess 2 and 2 Thess 2, make it clear that some choose to believe the gospel "as it is in truth, the Word of God, that worketh effectually, in them that believe." Per 1 Cor. 2, and Rom. 1, the gospel itself contains "the power of God to save then that believe."

While passages like 2 Thess. 2 make it equally clear that some exercise their free will to believe, choosing to "believe not the truth."

This view is neither Calvinist, nor Arminian. Rather, God has chosen to save them that have chosen to believe Him against the flesh's inclination not to!

The Law called for what it was unable to produce in that it was weak thru the flesh. You need righteousness in order to bw able to produce its particular fruit. The Law was a schoolmaster, teaching this via failure.

Grace gives you the needed righteousness called for! Rom. 8.

Problem is that election as to service - what He has chosen to save those who choose to believe - the service He has chosen them to walk in - this is confused as chosen to salvation.

Romans 9-11 is often cited in support of such error. Pharaoh's heart, for example, is concluded having been hardened by God. Fact is that how that hardening came about is misunderstood - through the deceitfulness of his sinful heart, which was hardened more and more with each "let my people go!"

This is no different then when we attempt to reason with someone against their chosen coarse of action, and the more we do, the more they become hardened to their error.

"He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy," Prov. 29:1

 

[stenerson]

Romans 9-11 is often cited in support of such error. Pharaoh's heart, for example, is concluded having been hardened by God. Fact is that how that hardening came about is misunderstood - through the deceitfulness of his sinful heart, which was hardened more and more with each "let my people go!"

This is no different then when we attempt to reason with someone against their chosen coarse of action, and the more we do, the more they become hardened to their error.

"He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy," Prov. 29:1

Well sure Pharoah hardened his own heart and God hardened Pharoah's heart. Point of the text though was that God is free to have mercy on whom He wants and harden whom He wants. In other words God, if willing, was free to soften Pharoah's hard heart. The meaning of the text is clear. But let's not get side tracked, freegrace is exegeting Ephesians.

 

[extraordinary]

Well of course, we always look at context first.
Paul was writing a letter to a Church.
Immediate context "us" was Paul and those He wrote to.

Everyone loves Ephesians so much ... because they think it was written to them!
Yes, that's what they think! ... Butski, Who was Paul really writing to?

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

And notice how he snuck in the "in Christ".
Oh, that crafty old Paul ... I love him.
He's a genius (thanks, but we already know that!) ...
inspired by the Lord Jesus (as is all Scripture, but not all translations).

In Ephesians, Paul was NOT writing to every church member,
not even to every believer, and not even to every BAC.

ONLY DA FAITHFUL ONES NEED APPLY (i.e. expect heaven)!
To know who the "faithful" ones are, please consult the NT.
.

 

[stenerson]

Everyone loves Ephesians so much ... because they think it was written to them!
Yes, that's what they think! ... Butski, Who was Paul really writing to?

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

And notice how he snuck in the "in Christ".

In Ephesians, Paul was NOT writing to every church member,
not even to every believer, and not even to every BAC.

ONLY DA FAITHFUL ONES NEED APPLY (i.e. expect heaven)!
To know who the "faithful" ones are, please consult the NT.
.

What's wrong, you getting lonely? Your threads not seeing much action today? Okay, I'm a patient saint, will take pity and talk to you.
Yep, the "us" are the saints who are in Christ and faithful. The unfaithful though may also read Ephesians and per chance, Lord willing, by God's spirit be bought to faith.

 

[Danoh]

Yeah, I too am.gradually reaching the end of my attempt with him - Ephesians was written just to the Ephesians?

No wonder you are off in such an "Extraordinary" way

 

[extraordinary]

Ephesians makes it clear that even the faith which grabs hold of the Gospel promises is a gift from God.

There are 30+ NT passages which explain that ...
Man is UNABLE to believe in the "foolish" gospel all by his little ole self.
.

 

[stenerson]

There are 30+ NT passages which explain that ...
Man is UNABLE to believe in the "foolish" gospel all by his little ole self.
.

Yes, I agree. Man is unable to believe by his ole self.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, how you backtrack.

Oh, how your ambiguous one liners have no meaning.

If God isn't the cause, who is?

Peter said this:

2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

And concluded with this:

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Do you believe Peter?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh boy, you're all twisted up.. That's what happens when you put so much effort into refuting Paul's plain and clear message.

Oh, that's rich!! I'm still waiting for your exegesis.

I simply let Paul define who the chosen or elect are.

Sure. Which is what I did, but doesn't seem to sit too well with you. Paul defined the "us" very clearly in 1:19, so what's the beef?

And I simply quoted Paul.

As I've also done. So, what's the beef?

Of course the elected are elected and the chosen are chosen.

Which means that God has elected or chosen those who have already been elected or chosen.

To elect someone who is already called elect indicates that the the elect person has been elected twice.

But we get more detail about these that were chosen from the foundation of the world. The passage tells us (I'll repeat, take a deep breath, pause and read):
that he's talking about those chosen before the foundation of the world, those predestined to adoption as sons according the the purpose of His own will, those that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, those he hath made accepted in the beloved, those he hath abounded toward "us" in all wisdom and prudence, those to who he has made known unto "us" the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, those He predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, those who have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, etc.
Paul goes into detail concerning the "us" that were chosen.

He sure did. He clearly defined "us" in 1:19 as "us who believe".

So, God chose believers. He didn't say that God chose the chosen. The category God chose was believer.

Of course God chose the chosen or elected the elected. Why would anyone have to defend that?

Because that phrase indicates that God has chosen/elected people who are already chosen/elected. Which makes no sense, nor does it define anything. It's just a bunch of repetitious words.

Of course, why would I go against scripture.

I have no idea.

This passage in Ephesians makes it clear that even the faith which grabs hold of the Gospel promises is a gift from God.

No it doesn't. The "it" in 2:8 refers back to salvation, which is the free gift.

The Psalmist agreed:

psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

God does choose believers. Of course.

 

[stenerson]

No it doesn't. The "it" in 2:8 refers back to salvation, which is the free gift.


God does choose believers. Of course.

The Gordian Knot you've tied yourself into is too convoluted for mere men to unravel. I'll let you fight this out with extraordinaire.
You guys are like minded and speak the same language.

 

[nobdysfool]

If you are a born-again Christian (which is really an oxymoron, as there is no other kind), you are 'in Christ'. Nothing else needs to be done to be in Christ.

And notice how he snuck in the "in Christ". In Ephesians, Paul was NOT writing to every church member, not even to every believer, and not even to every BAC.

You are twisting the Scriptures, and making artificial distinctions that are not in Scripture. The Book of Ephesians (really a letter from Paul to the Ephesians, and to all who are in Christ, as Paul specifically states) was written, as most of Paul's letters were, to be passed around among various churches, so they had a wider audience than what you claim. And, (and this is important), the Holy Spirit not only inspired Paul in his writing, but made sure that this letter was part of Scripture. As such, it is for all Believers, and Believers are born-again, they are in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Gordian Knot you've tied yourself into is too convoluted for mere men to unravel.

Let me loosely translate: I'm unable to refute your claims.

I'll let you fight this out with extraordinaire.
You guys are like minded and speak the same language.

What a horrendous insult!!

 

[Hammster]

Oh, how your ambiguous one liners have no meaning.


Peter said this:

2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

And concluded with this:

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Do you believe Peter?

I believe Peter. He was addressing believers. I just reject your Pelagianism.

 

[extraordinary]

If you are a born-again Christian (which is really an oxymoron, as there is no other kind), you are 'in Christ'. Nothing else needs to be done to be in Christ. You are twisting the Scriptures, and making artificial distinctions that are not in Scripture. The Book of Ephesians (really a letter from Paul to the Ephesians, and to all who are in Christ, as Paul specifically states) was written, as most of Paul's letters were, to be passed around among various churches, so they had a wider audience than what you claim. And, (and this is important), the Holy Spirit not only inspired Paul in his writing, but made sure that this letter was part of Scripture. As such, it is for all Believers, and Believers are born-again, they are in Christ.

Seems everyone tinks I wuz excluding all but the Ephesians!

Nah, obviously 'twas written to all faithful saints who can read or hear da word,
which (also obviously) iz NOT all who can read or hear (in church or out of church)!
Hope I haven't confused anyone more than they're already confused.
.

 

[Hillsage]

If you are a born-again Christian (which is really an oxymoron, as there is no other kind),

That's good, I like it.

you are 'in Christ'. Nothing else needs to be done to be in Christ.

Correct again, and being 'in Christ' is the equivalent of being 'of the faith'. Now what do we do with the scriptures demanding that we BAC's also be 'in the faith' and 'have Christ fully formed IN us'?

That's where I like to separate the salvation of the spirit as opposed to the salvation of the soul. It's the only way to reconcile the 1/2 truth understandings of Calvinists AND Armenians. All IMO of course.

 

[extraordinary]

That's where I like to separate the salvation of the spirit as opposed to the salvation of the soul.
It's the only way to reconcile the 1/2 truth understandings of Calvinists AND Armenians.
All IMO of course.

Older scholars far beyond us say the two are inseparable!
Myer Pearlman is one such ... fabulous 350-page book on Christian doctrine!
Only thing of his I don't agree with is pre-trib, of which he had very little to say!
Wasn't on anyone's front burner way back then, so he's excused.

BTW, I've been trying to explain the red to you guys, but no cigar!
But to me it all makes perfect sense ... spiritually and logically also.
.