rusmeister
A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
- Dec 9, 2005
- 10,407
- 5,026
- Country
- Montenegro
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
"In short, either you have done literally EVERYTHING yourself (not possible), or you have faith in others. Ergo, you are offering us faith in other human beings (alone) INSTEAD of human beings who admittedly sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit (and whom we believe the Holy Spirit actually guided)."
Quote so. I DO say that I have faith in other human beings. They happen to be ones that admittedly sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit (ie, the fathers and saints).That could be said about you too Rus.
If "judgemental" means "to judge ideas", then I am guilty as charged. If it means"to judge Greg as a person" I absolutely deny that. I say nothing about you or your standing before God.Again, this is coming across as judgmental and its indicating a very thorough lack of understanding and appreciation of the scientific research process.
You simply don't know us, what we've been through, what short guidence we've taken, etc. because you are interacting with us via a computer screen and typing pixels. Sorry, but I cannot and will not accept what you said in your last comment as having any validity.
Agreed. I DONT know you as people, and I don't claim to. I speak to ideas, not to people.
However, that you do not accept that scientific views also require faith is irrelevant, because it is true. To merely trust the validity of your reason is an act of faith. There is no knowledge you have that is not founded on faith in something or other.
Snce I see the proper understanding of Orthodoxy as submitting whatever I think true to the judgement of the Church, and that wherever there is conflict, I am wrong and the Church is right, I suppose that is true if you disagree. In that case, I do think I properly understand Orthodoxy. But "spiritually all together"? Come on, I am as messed up as everyone else.You are coming across as if you are saying that you're the one that's got it all together spiritually because you have the proper understanding of Orthodoxy. If anyone opens their minds to the possibility that some aspects of evolution might be true then they are not as Orthodox as you are.
I HAVE opened my mind to the idea that evolution could be true. For twenty adult years I accepted it. I do not say that someone is "less Orthodox" for accepting it. I think we are all at different stages of understanding different things. But I do think you hold the authority of modern science on an equal level as the authority of the teachings of the Church, and that's what I say is wrong and un-Orthodox. Everything said here confirms to me that the heresy to the modern mind is challenging, not the Church fathers (who in general most of you - whether that includes Greg or not - feel free to challenge), but the conclusions of modern science.
Interesting that some here reject macro evolution but admitted they accept microevolution. That's inconsistent because both macro and micro evolution requires the death of the organism.
i have no problem with limited evolution that has been actually observed in real time, and not by mere calculation and assumption. The problem is with an absolute faith in a science that produces conclusions that contradict Church dogma, in particular the Fall of man and that death entered the world by sin, and not by God's Creative Act. Some of you may deny the contradiction, but I see it with my naked eyes, so I know it exists. In the face of that contradiction, you apparently choose the consensus of modern scientists rather than that of e Church fathers, and so whether you realize and admit it or not, you deny the dogma of death entering the world by sin and make nonsense of the teaching of the Fall.
If I err, I'd rather err with the Church fathers than against them. Modern science isn't worth it. Today's theories become tomorrow's myths of the past. It's all passing knowledge. Unlike what the Church has to teach us.
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