Enoch and Elijah

[plain talk]

all of this ^^^ will be given to whom it is necessary to know; namely the Jewish remnant

There will be a Jewish remnant after the Abomination of Desolation.

Matthew 24:15

But by this time the Testimony of the Two Witnesses will be over as well. So to wait until then would be to wait until after the fact. In order for this information to be useful, it needs to be available presently. Especially since Iran has shown off its massive arsenal of underground missiles that can reach Israel. They boldly state that Israel will not be in existence within the next 25 years (but I feel that they will not be that patient).

 

[pdudgeon]

There will be a Jewish remnant after the Abomination of Desolation.

Matthew 24:15

But by this time the Testimony of the Two Witnesses will be over as well. So to wait until then would be to wait until after the fact. In order for this information to be useful, it needs to be available presently. Especially since Iran has shown off its massive arsenal of underground missiles that can reach Israel. They boldly state that Israel will not be in existence within the next 25 years (but I feel that they will not be that patient).

for us to speculate when it happens is of no concern--it's not ment for us.
i think that's one reason why God chose two prophets from the Old Testiment time
whose credentials will 'pass muster' with the ones who need to hear the message.

 

[MikeK]

Missiles that have no WMD payload and have never been tested at range are not worrying. Once you scratch below the surface, things get a lot less alarming. What is the estimated CEP of these missiles? What is the intended warhead? What is their range with a low-yield, low-tech thermonuclear device? What sort of penaids are employed to defeat Iron Dome and Aegis Ashore?

 

[pdudgeon]

Missiles that have no WMD payload and have never been tested at range are not worrying. Once you scratch below the surface, things get a lot less alarming. What is the estimated CEP of these missiles? What is the intended warhead? What is the range with a low-yield, low-tech thermonuclear device? What sort of penaids are employed to defeat Iron Dome and Aegis Ashore?

how about the hand of God? i think that would be pretty effective towards defeating a few missles.

 

[plain talk]

for us to speculate when it happens is of no concern--it's not meant for us.

How can you say such a thing? If the believing Jews can get an ample warning, many lives could be saved. The whole Holy Bible is meant for us. Just because you do not understand something and what it is used for means that you just tear it out and throw it away.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

God chose not to reveal to us the date when Jesus will return.

However, Sacred Scripture tells us of the things to expect that lead up to it.

For this cause, I say, when He [Jesus] had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors ("for it is near," He says, "even at the doors"), He was silent as to the day. For if you seek after the day and hour, you shall not hear them of me, says He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell you all exactly.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 77 on Matthew
.​

 

[Rhamiel]

I heard an interesting view

it was that the Two Witnesses represented the mission of the Church in the World
the worship in the Temple represented the Worship of the Church
and the Woman in labor represented the spiritual role of the Church

it was something about them all having the same length of time?

 

[pdudgeon]

How can you say such a thing? If the believing Jews can get an ample warning, many lives could be saved. The whole Holy Bible is meant for us. Just because you do not understand something and what it is used for means that you just tear it out and throw it away.

and God will see to it that they will have ample warning, so that many lives will be saved.
He saw to that long before we were born, so that with or without us, it will happen. and that is good.

The whole bible is ment for us to understand, but not all of it is directed towards us.
In the same way that a teacher can divide her students into separate groups and give each group direction,
God can do the same with us.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

St. Bede believed that the two witnesses would be Enoch and Elijah, but he also offered a broader interpretation by pointing out how the Church is made up of two races that became one race. While Elijah was a Jew, Enoch was a Gentile since he was before Abraham. So it seems to make sense that they would return to be the two witnesses, not only because they never died but also because together they represent the two races of the universal Church.

"That the cruelty of the bad may not alarm the hearer, he mentions, that the Church also, which of two races is made one, is to become illustrious by the gift of miracles. The Church, too, ever contemplating its head, namely Christ, teaching in the flesh, will prophesy, it is said, for two years and a-half. For the months of three years and a-half, namely, thirty times forty-two, make up two hundred and sixty days. But Daniel writes, that the days of the same period in which the abomination of desolation is to be set up are one thousand two hundred and ninety." - St. Bede, The Explanation of the Apocalypse

 

[Rhamiel]

ahhhh that is an interesting view

also, the times add up to 3 and a half years
and it is the same in all of them I think

 

[LivingWordUnity]

It's interesting that God sent two witnesses to Sodom and Gomorrah, and He is sending two witnesses at the end.

 

[pdudgeon]

It's interesting that God sent two witnesses to Sodom and Gomorrah, and He is sending two witnesses at the end.

precisely. And on the the testimony of two witnesses, it shall be done.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

precisely. And on the the testimony of two witnesses, it shall be done.

"Likewise as it was in the days of Lot—they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and brimstone rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Jesus (Luke 17:28-30)

 

[Michie]

I always found it interesting how the number 40 is used throughout Scripture as well.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I always found it interesting how the number 40 is used throughout Scripture as well.

• In the time of Noah, it rained for 40 days and 40 nights.
• The ancient people of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
• Moses fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, and Jesus did the same.
• There are 4 gospels, and ten symbolizes completion. 4 X 10 = 40.

In addition, see: The Significance of Numbers in Scripture

 

[MikeK]

My son's hockey jersey number is 40!

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Isaac was 40 years old when he married Rebekah.

Isaac and Rebekah are an Old Testament symbolic "type" for Jesus and the Church.

See: Typology of the Unnamed Servant & the Holy Spirit
.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Here are some excerpts about Enoch and Elijah from a book that Rhamiel told me about:

"These two witnesses will be two strange men, appearing suddenly amidst the world, without anyone being able to say of what birth or origin they are, nor from what place or family that have come....No tongue can express the sheer amazement that will grip mankind at the sight of these two men, strangers to our passions and affairs, one of them having lived six thousand years, the other thirty centuries, in some ethereal region or other....What sort of appearance and bearing will these strangers from another age present? What venerable majesty will shine forth from their persons? What inspired language will flow from their lips? Holy Scripture does not tell us. It teaches us that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth, their garments and features bearing the marks of humility and penance."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, pp. 52-53

On the book:

Also see:
Genesis 5:21-24 (Enoch)
Malachi 4 (Elijah)
Revelation 11 (The Two Witnesses)

St Chrysostom referred to them being 'like' Enoch and Elijah.
Just as St John the Baptist was like Elijah.

Since technically they took their flesh to heaven in the OT - there's no telling how God will work things.

 

[MikeK]

Jesus was roughly 33 when he was Crucified. The Bible is split into 2 testaments. There are 5 letters in Obama. That adds up to 40. What does it mean though?!

 

[LivingWordUnity]

St Chrysostom referred to them being 'like' Enoch and Elijah.
Just as St John the Baptist was like Elijah.

Since technically they took their flesh to heaven in the OT - there's no telling how God will work things.

Earlier in this thread, I quoted what St. John Chrysostom said about it. He says that just as there was a forerunner for Christ's First Coming there will also be a forerunner for Christ's Second Coming and that he will be Elijah.

It says in the Old Testament, in Malachi 4, that Elijah will return before the end. The Jews in OT times believed this prophecy to be literal and so did St. John Chrysostom and other Catholic saints.

But fear not. “In those that perish” he will have his strength. For Elijah too will then come to give confidence to the faithful, and this Christ says; "Elijah comes, and shall restore all things." Matthew 17:11 Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.” Luke 1:17 For he neither wrought signs nor wonders, as Elijah did. For “John,” it is said, “did no miracle, but all things which John spoke of this Man were true.” How then was it “in the spirit and power of Elijah”? That is, he will take upon him the same ministry. As the one was the forerunner of His first Coming, so will the other be of His second and glorious Coming, and for this he is reserved. Let us not therefore fear. He has calmed the minds of the hearers. He causes them no longer to think present things dreadful but worthy of thankfulness.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians (circ. A.D. 391)​

And here's what St. Bede said about it:

Some understand the two prophets to be Enoch and Elijah, and that they are to preach for three years and a-half, and confirm the hearts of the faithful against the perfidy of Antichrist, which is presently to follow; and that, after their death, his cruelty is to rage for the same period of time, and then, when the conflict is at length renewed by the saints, who in the protection of their hiding-places were supposed to be dead, is to be overcome. And these, because of their fellowship in one body, are said to rise as prophets themselves; and when the persecution is intensified at the sight of those who were already thought to be dead, many of those who were supposed to be worthy of the number seven, or ten, will fall. For Daniel says, “He will confirm the covenant with many for one week, and in the half of the week the oblation and sacrifice will cease, and the abomination of desolation shall be in the temple;” and the following, “and when the abomination which makes desolate shall be set up, there will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days,” which number is close upon the course of three years and a-half. Finally, Elijah of old destroyed his adversaries by fire, and was hidden for three years and a-half, and withheld the rain; and at length, when the false prophets were put to death, by means of the sacrifice which had been consumed, he turned Israel unto the Lord.

- St. Bede, The Explanation of the Apocalypse (circ. A.D. 710-716)​

In Catholicism, we have Sacred Scripture AND divine Tradition to guide us in the interpretation of the word of God. It has been a constant tradition that Elijah will return, and it's been the belief of many Catholic saints that his return would be with Enoch.