Enoch and Elijah

[WarriorAngel]

I purchased my book from Amazon.

Here's something that St. John Chrysostom said about the two witnesses (4th paragraph):

Ver. 10, 11, 12. “For because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; for this cause God will send them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

“That they might be judged.” He does not say, that they might be punished; for even before this they were about to be punished; but “that they might be condemned,” that is, at the dreadful Seat of Judgment, in order that they might be without excuse. “Who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” He calls Christ, “the Love of the Truth.” “For because,” says he, “they received not the love of the truth.” For He was both, and came for the sake of both, both as loving men, and on behalf of things that were true.

“But had pleasure,” he says, “in unrighteousness.” For he came to the destruction of men and to injure them. For what will he not then work? He will change and confound all things, both by his commandments, and by the fear of him. He will be terrible in every way, from his power, from his cruelty, from his unlawful commandments.

But fear not. “In those that perish” he will have his strength. For Elijah too will then come to give confidence to the faithful, and this Christ says; "Elijah comes, and shall restore all things." Matthew 17:11 Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.” Luke 1:17 For he neither wrought signs nor wonders, as Elijah did. For “John,” it is said, “did no miracle, but all things which John spoke of this Man were true.” How then was it “in the spirit and power of Elijah”? That is, he will take upon him the same ministry. As the one was the forerunner of His first Coming, so will the other be of His second and glorious Coming, and for this he is reserved. Let us not therefore fear. He has calmed the minds of the hearers. He causes them no longer to think present things dreadful but worthy of thankfulness. Wherefore he has added,

Ver. 13. “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

How unto salvation? By sanctifying you through the Spirit. For these are the things that are the efficient causes of our salvation. It is nowhere of works, nowhere of righteous deeds, but through belief of the truth. Here again, “in” is used for “through.” “And through sanctification of the Spirit,” he says,

Ver. 14. “Whereunto He called you through our Gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This too is no little thing, if Christ considers our salvation His glory. For it is the glory of the Friend of man that they that are saved should be many. Great then is our Lord, if the Holy Spirit so desires our salvation. Why did he not say faith first? Because even after sanctification we have yet need of much faith, that we may not be shaken. Do you see how He shows that nothing is of themselves, but all of God?

Ver. 15. “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.”

Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken.

- St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Second Thessalonians​

But fear not. “In those that perish” he will have his strength. For Elijah too will then come to give confidence to the faithful, and this Christ says; "Elijah comes, and shall restore all things." Matthew 17:11 Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.”

 

[WarriorAngel]

Therefore it is said, “In the spirit and power of Elijah.”

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"How then was it 'in the spirit and power of Elijah'? That is, he will take upon him the same ministry. As the one was the forerunner of His first Coming, so will the other be of His second and glorious Coming, and for this he is reserved." - St. John Chrysostom (added emphasis)

 

[benedictaoo]

This thread is very interesting. It's speculation but it's good to be made aware of the possibility of these things. A lot of stuff to ponder.

 

[benedictaoo]

And if I ponder it, what then? We all know there will be an end, we all know Christ is returning. We all know every knee will bend, we all know He comes as judge, we all know both the living and the dead will be judged. But we should be ready regardless because the same is true when we die individually. The only benefit to truly understanding this is to correct the error of all those erroneous beliefs like the rapture. You know a lot of good Christians believe that. That is what we need to correct, the false teaching that's out there because it makes for people choosing to do things that are disastrous.

 

[MikeK]

And if I ponder it, what then? We all know there will be an end, we all know Christ is returning. We all know every knee will bend, we all know He comes as judge, we all know both the living and the dead will be judged. But we should be ready regardless because the same is true when we die individually. The only benefit to truly understanding this is to correct the error of all those erroneous beliefs like the rapture. You know a lot of good Christians believe that. That is what we need to correct, the false teaching that's out there because it makes for people choosing to do things that are disastrous.

Indeed. I heard an obviously mentally-ill man the other day suggesting that President Obama was the Antichrist and all sorts of other conspiracy nonsense. This sort of thing really damages Christ's Church, as it reinforces the idea among some fence-sitters that Christians are mostly paranoid and superstitious as opposed to faithful.

 

[benedictaoo]

Indeed. I heard an obviously mentally-ill man the other day suggesting that President Obama was the Antichrist and all sorts of other conspiracy nonsense. This sort of thing really damages Christ's Church, as it reinforces the idea among some fence-sitters that Christians are mostly paranoid and superstitious as opposed to faithful.

Problem I have proclaiming the end is near is it may drive some folks to do some really crazy things.

 

[benedictaoo]

So it's not discussion about the end times, it's going out and proclaiming we are in the end times, spite the fact I believe we are in the end times. It's difficult because saying we are i fear may drive some disastrous behaviour but then again that behaviour is a sign of the times itself. The real point is the we are to fulfill the Divine Commission and the Church and Christians are dropping the ball because we are not one. We need to be one to make disciples of all nations. And when IMO, all nations are Christian we will make the Jews jealous like Paul spoke about in Romans.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

So it's not discussion about the end times, it's going out and proclaiming we are in the end times, spite the fact I believe we are in the end times. It's difficult because saying we are i fear may drive some disastrous behaviour but then again that behaviour is a sign of the times itself. The real point is the we are to fulfill the Divine Commission and the Church and Christians are dropping the ball because we are not one. We need to be one to make disciples of all nations. And when IMO, all nations are Christian we will make the Jews jealous like Paul spoke about in Romans.

I think there's hope for individuals, the ones who are seeking the truth. But I doubt that the nations that apostatized will return to being governed by Christian principles since Sacred Scripture describes the world near the end as being ruled by the Antichrist.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well then there is the fact that there is going to be a new springtime, new Evangelization that Saint
John Paul spoke about. I use to think the man was crazy because when he was pope that was not a new springtime in the Church. The Church teaches one of the things that must occur before the end times and that is there will be a mass conversion of Christians and I believe this is when the Church becomes one. That will be the new springtime. So the mass conversion may be just Christianity uniting finally as Christ prayed for us to be one. It may just be the EO uniting finally or maybe them along with the Anglicans and the Lutherans. I don't know but the full number of the gentiles come in before the number of the Jews come in. It's possible we are very close to this time right before the end and what we experience now is God's wrath sent to bring us to repent. What we see happening now is actually His mercy, His punishment that will turn into repentance that will bring about this new springtime and that would fit with what Francis is doing. It reconciles the last two popes with this one. Mary in the last century has been saying that we can stop the wrath for our current apostasy with prayer and repentance and she says her Immaculate Heart will reign. So this is why its important for us to preach this, because maybe we are in the days of wrath right before the new springtime. After that is when the last days come, when there will be a real apostasy and the anti Christ comes making promises of solutions through apostasy. So just my luck I live in this age of age of mercy shown through punishment and not the springtime. I hope that comes in my lifetime. But the good news is both Mary and Saint Faustina says we can stop this punishment from God through prayer and sacrifice. We can stop this and bring about the mass conversion.

 

[benedictaoo]

It's true that Francis is trying to make God's mercy very accessible to us. Its true many non Catholics are attracted to this mercy he speaks about. Its true that he just may be uniting the whole Church. Who knows but it makes sense. Our job is to pray and offer sacrifices for sin.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Perhaps a lot of conversions are coming. The book in the OP suggests that this might happen as a result of the preaching of Enoch and Elijah. But if there is a "springtime," the next thing will be the Second Coming since the rebellion is already here.

 

[pdudgeon]

Problem I have proclaiming the end is near is it may drive some folks to do some really crazy things.

but when you stop to think of it, those folks who do the really crazy things are actually more set on hanging on to this life,
than they are looking forward to the next one.
They are acting out the fullness of what is in their heart, and being with Jesus is not a priority for them.

if it were, the proof would be in how quickly their thoughts turned to God instead of turning to what they wanted to
enjoy before the end, or what they still had to do on their 'bucket list.'

God tells in His Word 'don't stop to grab a robe, don't turn back to your house, just go!"

 

[MikeK]

but when you stop to think of it, those folks who do the really crazy things are actually more set on hanging on to this life,
than they are looking forward to the next one.
They are acting out the fullness of what is in their heart, and being with Jesus is not a priority for them.

if it were, the proof would be in how quickly their thoughts turned to God instead of turning to what they wanted to
enjoy before the end, or what they still had to do on their 'bucket list.'

God tells in His Word 'don't stop to grab a robe, don't turn back to your house, just go!"

I was thinking of crazy things like pulling their kids out of school, cashing out their retirement accounts, etc. Things that people who truly believed the end was near would do.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I was thinking of crazy things like pulling their kids out of school, cashing out their retirement accounts, etc. Things that people who truly believed the end was near would do.

Since we don't know the date when Jesus will return, we don't know how near it is. Near can mean 100 or 200 years, for example. And the Christian way of thinking isn't to do those things you are talking about. We should be more concerned about our soul and the souls of others than our bank account.

 

[MikeK]

Since we don't know the date when Jesus will return, we don't know how near it is. Near can mean 100 or 200 years, for example. And the Christian way of thinking isn't to do those things you are talking about. We should be more concerned about our soul and the souls of others than our bank account.

Could it be 300 years? 500? 3000? At what point does vague prophesy and statements of 99.9% certainty of the identity of the Antichrist betray itself as idle chatter?

I never stated or implied that we should be less concerned about our souls than our bank accounts and I don't know what your motive could be in suggesting such a thing.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

2 Peter 3 (added emphasis)

The Promise of the Lord’s Coming

3 This is now the second letter that I have written to you, beloved, and in both of them I have aroused your sincere mind by way of reminder; 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. 3 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,6 through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Final Exhortation and Doxology

14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[benedictaoo]

Perhaps a lot of conversions are coming. The book in the OP suggests that this might happen as a result of the preaching of Enoch and Elijah. But if there is a "springtime," the next thing will be the Second Coming since the rebellion is already here.

But that isn't what is definitive teaching found in the CCC. 5 things happen first. Not what both JP and Benedict says happens either. And the bible says the full number of Gentiles come in the Church before the full number of the Jews come in. When the full number of Gentiles come in, we will have a era of peace. Mary say her Immaculate Heart will reign. Right now I think, are the last days before the era of peace, the new springtime. Now we are in the time of the punishment Mary said God will inflict on us to wake us up. Its His divine mercy, not the end of time. Mary said war is a punishment for sin. We are being chastised in order for people to turn to God because thjngs are so bad,. Like Faustina's Divine Mercy message and this fits Francis year of mercy, and Mary's call to pray, fast, make sacrifices. In return we will experience the new springtime of the Church when the full number come in. Francis is trying to "make disciples" evangelising through God's mercy. What trips me out is Fatima predicted pretty much all this almost to a "t". Especially "many marriages are not of God" and "fashions will be introduced that offend God" and "we must stop offending God who is already much offended." So, we, the salt of the earth should wake up and start to pray, make sacrifices, reparations for this age we live in,. We also need to evangelize the Church to other Christians. Now truly is the time of God's mercy, His goal right now is to forgive, not condemn.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What is "the full number of Gentiles"?

 

[benedictaoo]

Could it be 300 years? 500? 3000? At what point does vague prophesy and statements of 99.9% certainty of the identity of the Antichrist betray itself as idle chatter?

I never stated or implied that we should be less concerned about our souls than our bank accounts and I don't know what your motive could be in suggesting such a thing.

I believe the time we are living in is the call to Divine Mercy, not the last days. We are in the time right before the era of peace where Mary says her Immaculate Heart will reign. Just my luck my predestination is to live in a time of merciful chastisement and not the era of peace, the new springtime.