Enoch and Elijah

[pdudgeon]

I'm not judging you at all. All I know about you is what you demonstrate. I can see that you are very passionate about end times prophesies. I have not seen similar passion from you in threads about helping others. You might be teaching CCD and organizing prison ministries and building houses for the poor and bringing the Eucharist to the infirm and running Bible studies or outreach groups for the least among us. People who do those things generally like to talk about them, so that they can share experiences and improve their service. That doesn't mean that you aren't giving of yourself. You just might be and I never stated that you weren't. All I know of you is what you post, and what you post is generally either overtly politically partisan or is related to the end times. I pass no judgement on you or your soul and I don't for a minute presume to know your sins not am I interested in them.

"Pride is the worst sin." That's kinda why I don't engage much in Biblical puzzle-solving - many better men than me have tried and failed for 2000 years. I don't believe that I could do better. I don't know who the Antichrist is anymore that Popes Benedict or Francis do/did. If I did, I hope I would share that information out of love for neighbor.

Mike, the long and short of this is that people who are very passionate about end-time prophesies care very much indeed about their neighbors.
They want with all their hearts for their neighbors to have and enjoy an endless eternal life in the presence of God.

people who offer gifts of charity for the glory of God don't talk about them.
it is enough for them that God sees what they do.
the quieter they are about what good they do, the happier they are.
it gives them exceedingly great joy and peace.

their secret is this:
they hold what they have, and give what they have, with open hands.
it is not theirs, but is lent from the Lord.
and when a person has that wisdom about God and earthly possessions
they have peace.

because their supply is endless their giving can likewise be endless.
their supply is not dependent upon themselves or how much they have or how
much they can earn in a lifetime.
They can live from day to day in the way that God instructed us to do,
because their source is God, whose supply is endless.
they are the ones who stand with open hands before the Lord,
and He fills them.
and because they are filled, they give as God does.

it is people who offer gifts of charity for their own satisfaction who will talk to others about what they do,
because the want the glory here and now.
and that's exactly how and where they get it. here and now.

and when earth passes away from memory, so will their temporary glory and the testimony of their good works..
that glory was for earthly times, and it will be remembered no more.

 

[benedictaoo]

To be fair to Mike though, I get the obsession with thinking this is the end. It's not Catholics though that obsess over it. it's the fundemenlists and other sects that build a whole dogma around this. Those who obsess, I also agree with Mike, why? If it's the end, obsessing about it is crazy. We need to be getting our houses in order. Catholic discussion is necessary because there is so much error out there. We need to be the voice of reason about it and to warn, that the end is near. maybe not literally but certainly we have our own end near.

 

[pdudgeon]

To be fair to Mike though, I get the obsession with thinking this is the end. It's not Catholics though that obsess over it. it's the fundemenlists and other sects that build a whole dogma around this. Those who obsess, I also agree with Mike, why? If it's the end, obsessing about it is crazy. We need to be getting our houses in order. Catholic discussion is necessary because there is so much error out there. We need to be the voice of reason about it and to warn, that the end is near. maybe not literally but certainly we have our own end near.

don't worry. God will be fair to Mike, just as God is fair to all people.

 

[MikeK]

Mike, the long and short of this is that people who are very passionate about end-time prophesies care very much indeed about their neighbors.
They want with all their hearts for their neighbors to have and enjoy an endless eternal life in the presence of God.

people who offer gifts of charity for the glory of God don't talk about them.
it is enough for them that God sees what they do.
the quieter they are about what good they do, the happier they are.
it gives them exceedingly great joy and peace.

their secret is this:
they hold what they have, and give what they have, with open hands.
it is not theirs, but is lent from the Lord.
and when a person has that wisdom about God and earthly possessions
they have peace.

because their supply is endless their giving can likewise be endless.
their supply is not dependent upon themselves or how much they have or how
much they can earn in a lifetime.
They can live from day to day in the way that God instructed us to do,
because their source is God, whose supply is endless.
they are the ones who stand with open hands before the Lord,
and He fills them.
and because they are filled, they give as God does.

it is people who offer gifts of charity for their own satisfaction who will talk to others about what they do,
because the want the glory here and now.
and that's exactly how and where they get it. here and now.

and when earth passes away from memory, so will their temporary glory and the testimony of their good works..
that glory was for earthly times, and it will be remembered no more.

Your entire premise is false. People who do good want to maximize their impact. Mother Theressa was not silent about her service, she actively promoted it and wanted the world to see, that she might inspire them to join her cause. Catholic Relief Services actively advertises the good it does, because through this promotion, others will be compelled to give and to help. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking of the good we do. Sure, the money we donate should probably not be broadcasted, but it is good and right to share the thins that we've managed to do for Christ and to want to learn from others' service to Him, that we may find more ways to serve Him in love.

I for one am very moved and inspired when I read of what Michie has done for the elderly and infirm, what Global Nomad is doing for refugees, what Mikhael has done for the hungry. I think that's awesome Christian testimony and I'd like to see more of it, not less.

 

[MikeK]

To be fair to Mike though, I get the obsession with thinking this is the end. It's not Catholics though that obsess over it. it's the fundemenlists and other sects that build a whole dogma around this. Those who obsess, I also agree with Mike, why? If it's the end, obsessing about it is crazy. We need to be getting our houses in order. Catholic discussion is necessary because there is so much error out there. We need to be the voice of reason about it and to warn, that the end is near. maybe not literally but certainly we have our own end near.

I agree with this line of thinking. Why should the Catholic care if the end is tomorrow or in two million years? Our own end is coming and almost certain to be in the next few decades. We must strive to be prepared for judgement at all times. That's why we attend Mass and Confession so often and that's why we spend our hours in service to God and His children.

There might be some good in trying to convince nominal believers or unbelievers that Biblical prophesies are coming true, but only if our arguments are sound and if we are prepared to honestly and directly answer questions about them so as not to appear as yet another in a long line of superstitious Christians that sing the same sky-is-falling song. If we aren't careful, we could do more harm than good.

 

[pdudgeon]

Your entire premise is false. People who do good want to maximize their impact. Mother Theressa was not silent about her service, she actively promoted it and wanted the world to see, that she might inspire them to join her cause. Catholic Relief Services actively advertises the good it does, because through this promotion, others will be compelled to give and to help. There is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking of the good we do. Sure, the money we donate should probably not be broadcasted, but it is good and right to share the thins that we've managed to do for Christ and to want to learn from others' service to Him, that we may find more ways to serve Him in love.

I for one am very moved and inspired when I read of what Michie has done for the elderly and infirm, what Global Nomad is doing for refugees, what Mikhael has done for the hungry. I think that's awesome Christian testimony and I'd like to see more of it, not less.

Saints do things for God.
people notice those things and praise God.
that's how it is supposed to work.

the focus is on God, not on folks.

 

[pdudgeon]

I agree with this line of thinking. Why should the Catholic care if the end is tomorrow or in two million years? Our own end is coming and almost certain to be in the next few decades. We must strive to be prepared for judgement at all times. That's why we attend Mass and Confession so often and that's why we spend our hours in service to God and His children.

There might be some good in trying to convince nominal believers or unbelievers that Biblical prophesies are coming true, but only if our arguments are sound and if we are prepared to honestly and directly answer questions about them so as not to appear as yet another in a long line of superstitious Christians that sing the same sky-is-falling song.

why did the Apostles care about when the end was comming?
Why did they leave writings of Christ if all they cared about was their own end?
Why make disciples or build churches?
Why take journeys to foreign lands, or work to spread the Gospel?
Why do anything that might get a person killed for what they believe in?

Jesus must have thought all that ^^ was necessary, and so should we.

 

[MikeK]

I suspect that the reason for the mention of the end times and the reason for the vagueness of prophesy and refusal to name times and dates was to keep even physically healthy Christians' eyes on their judgement day. We build Churches because we live God and want to worship Him. Apostles left testimony because they lived God and wished to share the Good News with people who didn't have the fortune of knowing Him in the flesh.

 

[plain talk]

The truth is that the "Two Witnesses" is a mystery - it is liken unto the Excalibur Sword. In the middle of the Book of Revelation everyone that reads this book will come across it.

Why did the Lord place this mystery in the middle of this book? It is a test, to see who will truly be the first to pull "this sword out of the rock" and prove himself or herself to be worthy. To be worthy to lead God's end time people in Wisdom and Truth.

 

[plain talk]

Let the person that is worthy, pull this sword out.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

“At the heart of all temptations…is the act of pushing God aside because we perceive him as secondary, if not actually superfluous and annoying, in comparison with all the apparently far more urgent matters that fill our lives. Constructing a world by our own lights, without reference to God, building on our own foundation; refusing to acknowledge the reality of anything beyond the political and material, while setting God aside as an illusion—that is the temptation that threatens us in many varied forms.

“Moral posturing is part and parcel of temptation. It does not invite us directly to do evil—no, that would be far too blatant. It pretends to show us a better way, where we finally abandon our illusions and throw ourselves into the work of actually making the world a better place. It claims, moreover, to speak for true realism: What’s real is what is right there in front of us—power and bread. By comparison, the things of God fade into unreality, into a secondary world that no one really needs....When God is regarded as a secondary matter that can be set aside temporarily or permanently on account of more important things, it is precisely these supposedly more important things that come to nothing.”

- Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I (pp. 28-29; 33)

 

[Michie]

Yeah, ok.

The truth is that the "Two Witnesses" is a mystery - it is liken unto the Excalibur Sword. In the middle of the Book of Revelation everyone that reads this book will come across it.

Why did the Lord place this mystery in the middle of this book? It is a test, to see who will truly be the first to pull "this sword out of the rock" and prove himself or herself to be worthy. To be worthy to lead God's end time people in Wisdom and Truth.

 

[plain talk]

The solution cannot be as superficial as just calling two names. The solution MUST also give the following:

[1] The exact timeframe of the 1260 days (with starting and ending dates)
[2] The locations of the Two Witnesses during this time.
[3] Full disclosure of their messages and prophecies.
[4] Full interpretations of all their actions and manifestations.

It is only when all this is given, then a solution will be acceptable. Until then it is only conjecture and speculation.

 

[pdudgeon]

“At the heart of all temptations…is the act of pushing God aside because we perceive him as secondary, if not actually superfluous and annoying, in comparison with all the apparently far more urgent matters that fill our lives. Constructing a world by our own lights, without reference to God, building on our own foundation; refusing to acknowledge the reality of anything beyond the political and material, while setting God aside as an illusion—that is the temptation that threatens us in many varied forms.

“Moral posturing is part and parcel of temptation. It does not invite us directly to do evil—no, that would be far too blatant. It pretends to show us a better way, where we finally abandon our illusions and throw ourselves into the work of actually making the world a better place. It claims, moreover, to speak for true realism: What’s real is what is right there in front of us—power and bread. By comparison, the things of God fade into unreality, into a secondary world that no one really needs....When God is regarded as a secondary matter that can be set aside temporarily or permanently on account of more important things, it is precisely these supposedly more important things that come to nothing.”

- Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I (pp. 28-29; 33)

BINGO!

 

[pdudgeon]

The solution cannot be as superficial as just calling two names. The solution MUST also give the following:

[1] The exact timeframe of the 1260 days (with starting and ending dates)
[2] The locations of the Two Witnesses during this time.
[3] Full disclosure of their messages and prophecies.
[4] Full interpretations of all their actions and manifestations.

It is only when all this is given, then a solution will be acceptable. Until then it is only conjecture and speculation.

and all of this ^^^ will be given to whom it is necessary to know; namely the Jewish remnent.
if at that time we still have satalite tv, such happenings will be broadcast somewhere, or printed somewhere,
or spoken about somewhere, that the prophecy might be known to be fulfilled by the testimony of those who have seen and heard.

 

[MikeK]

God must never be pushed aside. It must be out of love for Him (or secondarily, fear of Him) that we serve Him. All Glory be to Christ, the most high! To serve Him is not a burden but a privilage, and we should all work to see it as such.

 

[pdudgeon]

God must never be pushed aside. It must be out of love for Him (or secondarily, fear of Him) that we serve Him. All Glory be to Christ, the most high! To serve Him is not a burden but a privilage, and we should all work to see it as such.

the time to say that was back 9 pages ago.

 

[LoAmmi]

pdudgeon, I saw you mention something pages back and was curious. Which day is it that Jews come together to give each other gifts?

 

[pdudgeon]

pdudgeon, I saw you mention something pages back and was curious. Which day is it that Jews come together to give each other gifts?

are you speaking of Revelation or the OT?

 

[LoAmmi]

You said:

it is a very distinct and loving prophecy, given by God to give hope to the Jews in the latter days.

these two men will have impeccable credentials, they will have the knowledge to answer all questions, and they will be sent from God to a specific people at a specific time,
with a specific purpose, to fulfill the number of Jews who at last will recognize their long-awaited Messiah.

and having fulfilled this mission, they will be martyred.
and the Jewish people who do not believe will celebrate their death, and give gifts to each other to celebrate this.

now here's a question for you. when is the one time of the year when Jews celebrate and give each other gifts?
when you find that time, start looking to see if there have been any stories about two notable Jews being martyred together.
and do that each year.

The last paragraph is what I'm asking about.