Enoch and Elijah

[mark46]

The fact that there have been some prophecies that are false doesn't mean that all prophecies are false. The one that you are rejecting, mocking, and calling "vague" happens to be a prophecy that was promised by our Lord Himself and which has also been a traditional belief of the Church about what would happen before the Second Coming. You rejected and mocked the book in the OP with a rude comment and a general dismissal of prophecy. But the book happens to have been a favorite of St. Therese of Lisieux, a Doctor of the Church. Everything in my beliefs is in perfect harmony with the Catholic faith. There's nothing wrong with a Catholic believing that the Second Coming may be near. I'm in the company of great saints with that belief. But your extremely negative attitude about prophecy which you have exhibited tells me that you see Catholicism as works based and only useful insofar as it can be used in achieving worldly political goals.

Yes, in every era, there are those who think that we are in the end times, and that the world will end soon, sometimes on a particular date. This has never been true. And many times, the Church has told us to ignore these prophesies, especially since this has ZERO affect on our daily lives, or should have zero effect.

But, this time the interpretations could be true, or not. I rely on the Vicar of Christ to warn us of any impending doom. Until then, I will believe, that as has been the case tens of thousands of times, the world will survive yet again.

 

[Michie]

I really do not see any issues discussing prophecy in threads. It is just an interesting subject to discuss and part of our history. I always find it interesting what people in their time thought about Christ's return. You can read Scripture and see that Paul thought Jesus was returning any day. There is nothing wrong in discussing it as long as we keep a healthy perspective about it. It can be just as unhealthy to be adverse to the subject as well.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Yes, in every era, there are those who think that we are in the end times, and that the world will end soon, sometimes on a particular date. This has never been true. And many times, the Church has told us to ignore these prophesies, especially since this has ZERO affect on our daily lives, or should have zero effect.

But, this time the interpretations could be true, or not. I rely on the Vicar of Christ to warn us of any impending doom. Until then, I will believe, that as has been the case tens of thousands of times, the world will survive yet again.

Here is just a sample of what the Church has said about this century and the last:

"What should our attitude be if we want to be part of this multitude journeying to the Father, in this world of devastation, in this world of war, in this world of tribulation?" - Pope Francis (added emphasis)

“Unlike former days, the denial of God or of religion, or the abandonment of them, are no longer unusual and individual occurrences. For today it is not rare for such things to be presented as requirements of scientific progress or of a certain new humanism. In numerous places these views are voiced not only in the teachings of philosophers, but on every side they influence literature, the arts, the interpretation of the humanities and of history and civil laws themselves. As a consequence, many people are shaken.” - Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II (added emphasis)

“Such, in truth, is the audacity and the wrath employed everywhere in persecuting religion, in combating the dogmas of the faith, in brazen effort to uproot and destroy all relations between man and the Divinity! While, on the other hand, and this according to the same apostle is the distinguishing mark of Antichrist, man has with infinite temerity put himself in the place of God, raising himself above all that is called God; in such wise that although he cannot utterly extinguish in himself all knowledge of God, he has contemned God's majesty and, as it were, made of the universe a temple wherein he himself is to be adored. ‘He sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God’ (II. Thess. ii., 2).” – Pope St. Pius X, E Supremi (October 4, 1903)

“As a matter of fact, this present conflict is even more serious than the others. Although the wild innovators of former times generally preserved some fragments of the treasury of revealed doctrine, these moderns act as if they will not rest until they completely destroy it. When the foundations of religion are overthrown, the restraints of civil society are also necessarily shattered. Behold the sad spectacle of our times! Behold the impending danger of the future! However, it is no danger to the Church, for the divine promise leaves no room for doubt. Rather, this revolution threatens the family and nations, especially those who actively stir up or indifferently tolerate this unhealthy atmosphere of irreligion.” – Pope St. Pius X, Editae Saepe (May 26, 1910)

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I really do not see any issues discussing prophecy in threads. It is just an interesting subject to discuss and part of our history. I always find it interesting what people in their time thought about Christ's return. You can read Scripture and see that Paul thought Jesus was returning any day. There is nothing wrong in discussing it as long as we keep a healthy perspective about it. It can be just as unhealthy to be adverse to the subject as well.

Actually, St. Paul specifically said that the Second Coming was not going to happen before the rebellion.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - St. Paul, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (added emphasis)

And the Church has consistently described the modern age as being rebellious against God. See my post above this one.

 

[Michie]

People have been looking for Christ's second coming since the dawn of Christianity.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

People have been looking for Christ's second coming since the dawn of Christianity.

What matters is what Sacred Scripture and Church tradition say about it. St. Paul said that it would not happen before the rebellion. And we know that the atheistic rebellion against God began with the so-called Enlightenment revolution which has since been spread all around the world. The key rebellious events after the Enlightenment were the communist revolution, the sexual revolution, and now the homosexual revolution.

 

[Michie]

What matters is what Sacred Scripture and Church tradition say about it. St. Paul said that it would not happen before the rebellion. And we know that the atheistic rebellion against God began with the so-called Enlightenment and has since been spread all around the world.

I'm not debating what the Church think is its dogmas or sacred scripture. I'm telling you this is nothing new and has happened since the beginning of Christianity. It has always been in believer's mind to look for the reurrn of Christ. Jesus even refers to it.

 

[MikeK]

You clearly did when you saido you have problems remembering things?

That wasn't mockery. I really do get a kick out of carefully selected, vague predictions.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'm not debating what the Church think is its dogmas or sacred scripture. I'm telling you this is nothing new and has happened since the beginning of Christianity. It has always been in believer's mind to look for the reurrn of Christ. Jesus even refers to it.

I'm using logic. There are basic prerequisites for the Second Coming. Jesus said that the Church would grow throughout the world and that the gospel would be preached to all nations before He returns. And St. Paul emphasized that the Second Coming would not happen before the great apostasy from God. So those prerequisites, when taken into account together, logically eliminate every age of the Church before the so-called Enlightenment but include the possibility of the Second Coming in the time after it, when atheism became the dominate philosophy in the western world. Pope St. Pius X recognized this.

 

[pdudgeon]

People have been looking for Christ's second coming since the dawn of Christianity.

Some people have been looking for it.
Other people have just as industriously been denying His coming for their own benefit.

given a choice, i would much rather be in the former group than in the latter.

 

[Michie]

I'm using logic. There are basic prerequisites for the Second Coming. Jesus said that the Church would grow throughout the world and that the gospel would be preached to all nations before He returns. And St. Paul emphasized that the Second Coming would not happen before the great apostasy from God. So those prerequisites, when taken into account together, logically eliminate every age of the Church before the so-called Enlightenment but include the possibility of the Second Coming in the time after it, when atheism became the dominate philosophy in the western world. Pope St. Pius X recognized this.

Everyone thought their time was a time of apostasy though. Not trying to be difficult. But that just the way are.

 

[pdudgeon]

Everyone thought their time was a time of apostasy though. Not trying to be difficult. But that just the way are.

and that is all to the good!

As long a people can recognize apostasy, they have a chance to turn from it , back to God.
It's when apostacy is something that is deemed aceptable to society that we have to worry.

and when such a society takes action to stamp out belief in God,
and make that belief a crime punishable by death,
when we see the number of martyrs rise beyond previous levels,
when people are rewarded and praised for the murder of believers and innocents,
when satan is praised and God damned,

then is when Christ draws closer.

it is not yet as bad as it can get--
but we should be looking to third world countries for signs of
things getting worse, and be prepared to see the same happening here.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Everyone thought their time was a time of apostasy though. Not trying to be difficult. But that just the way are.

That's not what the Church has said about it. Please read the following. It shows the contrast in how the Church viewed the western world before and after the atheistic so-called Enlightenment:

"Having embraced Christianity at the initiative of its King, Clovis, it [France] was rewarded by this most honourable testimony to its faith and piety, the title of eldest daughter of the Church...But when the human mind, filled with the poison of new opinions, had begun, in the pride of an untempered liberty, to reject the authority the Church, its downward course has been rapid and precipitate. For when the mortal poison of false doctrines had penetrated manners and customs themselves, society, to a great extent, came to fall away from Christianity. And in France the propagation of this plague was not a little promoted by certain philosophers in the last century, professors of a foolish wisdom, who set themselves to root up the foundations of Christian truth, and started a system of philosophy calculated the more vehemently to inflame the desires after unlimited licence which had been already enkindled. Nor was the help of these wanting whom an impotent hatred of religion binds together in unhallowed bonds, and daily renders more eager in the persecution of Catholics; and whether emulation in this evil work was greater in France than anywhere else, nobody, Venerable Brethren, can be a better judge than yourselves." - Pope Leo XIII, Nobilissima Gallorum Gens (On the Religious Question in France)

“Unlike former days, the denial of God or of religion, or the abandonment of them, are no longer unusual and individual occurrences. For today it is not rare for such things to be presented as requirements of scientific progress or of a certain new humanism. In numerous places these views are voiced not only in the teachings of philosophers, but on every side they influence literature, the arts, the interpretation of the humanities and of history and civil laws themselves. As a consequence, many people are shaken.” - Gaudium et Spes, Vatican II (added emphasis)

“Such, in truth, is the audacity and the wrath employed everywhere in persecuting religion, in combating the dogmas of the faith, in brazen effort to uproot and destroy all relations between man and the Divinity! While, on the other hand, and this according to the same apostle is the distinguishing mark of Antichrist, man has with infinite temerity put himself in the place of God, raising himself above all that is called God; in such wise that although he cannot utterly extinguish in himself all knowledge of God, he has contemned God's majesty and, as it were, made of the universe a temple wherein he himself is to be adored. ‘He sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God’ (II. Thess. ii., 2).” – Pope St. Pius X, E Supremi (October 4, 1903)

“As a matter of fact, this present conflict is even more serious than the others. Although the wild innovators of former times generally preserved some fragments of the treasury of revealed doctrine, these moderns act as if they will not rest until they completely destroy it. When the foundations of religion are overthrown, the restraints of civil society are also necessarily shattered. Behold the sad spectacle of our times! Behold the impending danger of the future! However, it is no danger to the Church, for the divine promise leaves no room for doubt. Rather, this revolution threatens the family and nations, especially those who actively stir up or indifferently tolerate this unhealthy atmosphere of irreligion.” – Pope St. Pius X, Editae Saepe (May 26, 1910)

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The Enlightenment was the first atheistic revolution in history, and it was the blueprint for the modern era. This is acknowledged by the Church and by secular academia. The only difference is that when one of my college professors talks about it they tell the class that it's a good thing that the world is "enlightened" (atheistic) and that Church has lost her influence when it comes to how countries are governed.

 

[pdudgeon]

The Enlightenment was the first atheistic revolution in history, and it was the blueprint for the modern era. This is acknowledged by the Church and by secular academia. The only difference is that when one of my college professors talks about it they tell the class that it's a good thing that the world is "enlightened" (atheistic) and that Church has lost her influence when it comes to how countries are governed.

very true. warnings have gone out for many years now. warnings for what can happen, warnings about what will be lost, warnings of the danger ahead.
and those who give the warnings are ignored, scoffed at, and ridiculed to their faces and behind their backs.

people who have any sense at all would cease and desist when faced with that.

But people who think of God first, last, and always will continue to speak the truth.
and they will be ridiculed, lied about, set up, arrested, thrown in jail, expelled, sentenced,
and eventually killed.
as much as it takes to silence the truth, they will suffer while here on earth.

but truth can never be silenced.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Here are some excerpts about Enoch and Elijah from a book that Rhamiel told me about:

"These two witnesses will be two strange men, appearing suddenly amidst the world, without anyone being able to say of what birth or origin they are, nor from what place or family that have come....No tongue can express the sheer amazement that will grip mankind at the sight of these two men, strangers to our passions and affairs, one of them having lived six thousand years, the other thirty centuries, in some ethereal region or other....What sort of appearance and bearing will these strangers from another age present? What venerable majesty will shine forth from their persons? What inspired language will flow from their lips? Holy Scripture does not tell us. It teaches us that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth, their garments and features bearing the marks of humility and penance."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, pp. 52-53

Also see:
Genesis 5:21-24 (Enoch)
Malachi 4 (Elijah)
Revelation 11 (The Two Witnesses)

I always found the "Two Witnesses" to be a fascinating topic. Not sure why you were immediately attacked. But carry on.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I am talking about Catholic stuff. The fact that many prophesies have been vague, have been misinterpretted, and a whole lot that have been made by good men in sincerity that turned out to be apparent delusions rather than prophesies. Focussing so much attention, as it has been in this forum, on end times prophesies is unhealthy. We are commanded primarily to love and serve God and to love and serve our neighbors. Focussing on commets and blood moons and trying to piece together prophesies told by people who may or may not actually be speaking literally is, I suppose, a fine pursuit in one's down time, after a long day of service. My impression, judging from the lack of interest by many here in conversations about how we could improve our service, is that the focus of many is on something other than what Christ desires. My position is entirely consistent with that of the Church.

The two witnesses are discussed in the word of God. Don't be a nagging spirit.

The Two Witnesses
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,a]">[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the Godb]">[b] of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

The Witnesses Killed
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also ourc]">[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allowd]">[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

The Witnesses Resurrected
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And theye]">[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

 

[pdudgeon]

I didn't engage in any sort of mockery. I shared my observation that end times prophesies are a hotter topic of discussion here than following Christ's primary commands to us is.

did you forget that the end times; what would happen and when it would happen, and how would they recognize the signs of the end times,
were also concerns of the disciples?

if you feel that we here are at fault for raising those same questions as the disciples did, then the proof that we are not at fault for asking
is found in Christ's answer to them.

case closed.

 

[pdudgeon]

This is exactly the point. You and others keep on telling us that these prophesies and the fact that we are in the end times is the teaching of the faith, the teachings that we should rely on for our strength. Show me where the greatest theologian of our times (Pope Benedict) told us to pay attention to these teachings.

You have been told already via direct quotes of the Popes which have been posted in this forum.
There are also the prophets of the OT, the words of Jesus in the Gospels, and the book of Revelation.
Do you reject these as well?

 

[pdudgeon]

People have been looking for Christ's second coming since the dawn of Christianity.

precisely. and they were told to be alert, be prepared, to watch, and to wait expectantly.

what they weren't told was that they were wrong for doing so.