Enoch and Elijah

[MikeK]

yes....and it's the how and why that those two commands are carried out that we differ on.

The how that I favor is "to the best of our ability" and the why is "because we love God above all things". If we differ on that...well, that sucks.

we can do good works by ourselves, or we can do good works with Jesus.

Nobody called for excluding Jesus from the works He calls us to do. The very context of the works I've been talking about is in service to Him, for the betterment of our neighbor, as demanded by Him. Jesus is at the very core of everything I'm speaking in favor of.

 

[pdudgeon]

Whatever happened to Enoch and Elijah? These threads always turn into the same debate.

Enoch and Elijah worked with God.
those who opposed them did not.

 

[benedictaoo]

Whatever happened to Enoch and Elijah? These threads always turn into the same debate.

Its about what's leading us to the end.

 

[Michie]

Enoch and Elijah worked with God.
those who opposed them did not.

Yeah o know but I thought we were actually going to discuss them. Not the same old same old. Oh well, hitting an estate sale. Wish me luck!

 

[pdudgeon]

The how that I favor is "to the best of our ability" and the why is "because we love God above all things". If we differ on that...well, that sucks.

ah, but we do differ.
you work to the best of your ability (like Martha)
I work to the best of God's ability (like Mary).

Nobody called for excluding Jesus from the works He calls us to do. The very context of the works I've been talking about is in service to Him, for the betterment of our neighbor, as demanded by Him. Jesus is at the very core of everything I'm speaking in favor of.

but who gets the glory from it?

 

[benedictaoo]

Armchair persecution, like I said.

Still a persecution none the less, that you do not get to dismiss or water down or trivialize.

 

[MikeK]

ah, but we do differ.
you work to the best of your ability (like Martha)
I work to the best of God's ability (like Mary).

Is that really, sincerely what you think you do - work to the best of God's ability?

but who gets the glory from it?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit along with Christ's Church. Every good thing we have we should thank God for, every good act we do we should do in His name. Service to Him is not a private thing that we do with the shades drawn but rather the very way we live our lives.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yeah o know but I thought we were actually going to discuss them. Not the same old same old. Oh well, hitting an estate sale. Wish me luck!

When folks don't wish to discuss but to derail that's what happens.

 

[benedictaoo]

The how that I favor is "to the best of our ability" and the why is "because we love God above all things". If we differ on that...well, that sucks.



Nobody called for excluding Jesus from the works He calls us to do. The very context of the works I've been talking about is in service to Him, for the betterment of our neighbor, as demanded by Him. Jesus is at the very core of everything I'm speaking in favor of.

what's being said here is we can't advocate government service to the poor that excludes God. This is what's being said to you. If Bernie Sanders is the way to go, his way can not exclude God from moral social issues.

 

[benedictaoo]

IOW, Mike, works with out faith is dead.

 

[pdudgeon]

Is that really, sincerely what you honk you do - work to the best of God's ability?

yep!
and the results are totally, totally amazing!
you should try it sometime.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit along with Christ's Church. Every good thing we have we should thank God for, every good act we do we should do in His name. Service to Him is not a private thing that we do with the shades drawn but rather the very way we live our lives.

doing service WITH Him, and we don't have to worry whether the shades are drawn, we don't have to tell everyone what we're doing, we have no plans that can get messed up,
and we won't run out of anything.

if we do it by ourselves we are limited.
if we do things with God there are no limits.

 

[MikeK]

what's being said here is we can't advocate government service to the poor that excludes God. This is what's being said to you. If Bernie Sanders is the way to go, his way can not exclude God from moral social issues.

I'm not advocating for any politician. If your position is that we cannot support any legislation that does not specifically reference God, I don't agree.

 

[MikeK]

yep!
and the results are totally, totally amazing!
you should try it sometime.





doing service WITH Him, and we don't have to worry whether the shades are drawn, we don't have to tell everyone what we're doing, we have no plans that can get messed up,
and we won't run out of anything.

if we do it by ourselves we are limited.
if we do things with God there are no limits.

God's ability is without limit. I have limits. I always fall short of perfection in service. I am glad that you don't.

 

[Michie]

I know when I was a Protestant the thought was as Scripture says it is appointed to all of us to die once. So it was thought that Enoch and Elijah were the logical choice.

Here are some excerpts about Enoch and Elijah from a book that Rhamiel told me about:

"These two witnesses will be two strange men, appearing suddenly amidst the world, without anyone being able to say of what birth or origin they are, nor from what place or family that have come....No tongue can express the sheer amazement that will grip mankind at the sight of these two men, strangers to our passions and affairs, one of them having lived six thousand years, the other thirty centuries, in some ethereal region or other....What sort of appearance and bearing will these strangers from another age present? What venerable majesty will shine forth from their persons? What inspired language will flow from their lips? Holy Scripture does not tell us. It teaches us that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth, their garments and features bearing the marks of humility and penance."

- Fr. Charles Arminjon, The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, pp. 52-53

On the book:

Also see:
Genesis 5:21-24 (Enoch)
Malachi 4 (Elijah)
Revelation 11 (The Two Witnesses)
Humanity's journey to the Father

 

[benedictaoo]

What are you arguing with? This is your response to my statement that we need to show the world how beautiful traditional Christian marriage is. What we have is far better, both spiritually and in the short term Earthly sense than what fornicators and adulterers and people in same-sex marriages have. Let us display the deep happiness and satisfaction that comes from serving the Lord and others will be drawn to explore what we have. I am not disagreeing with Pope Benedict's reflections at all and I'm not sure what specific bits you imagine I take issue with.

This is what is being said, that I can not be more clear. Our "world" not us, as in individual people but "nations," governments, societies, cultures is secular when once upon a time kingdoms and governments, societies, cultures, used to be Christian. If we, the "world" keeps treading this path of shutting God out the public square we will be seeing the anti Christ cometh. Can't be more clear. We are there knocking on the door because we are trading truth for lies in our government, and in pop culture all over the world. We are trying to solve the problems of society with apostasy. I can not be more clear. You seem to be saying that a secularized government, society is of no consequence to us because we as individuals are what's setting the example. Yes we individuals must do that but as Benedict said, in this godless secularized society it is almost impossible for us even to be faithful. We are bombarded with temptations to dissent and we simply can not allow secularized society because this is a direct attack on those who are the salt of the earth. It's designed to takes faithful souls to hell. Be the example but we need our world to converted back to God because that is having a bigger impact.

 

[benedictaoo]

"It all springs from communism"? Establishment clause?

How can you say "people must be free to practice whatever they want" and then "culture must be based on godly principles " straight after? They're inherently contradictory.

E.g. if someone is free to be gay,they're not godly, but if they're not allowed to be gay, they're not free, are they?

Meaning what ever religion you are, practice it freely but our government laws must be based on the 10 Commandments of God. Those are pretty neutral laws. If you are gay, no one should treat you badly, be violent towards you or show you any discrimination whats so ever but when it comes to something impossible like same sex marriage or changing the sex you were born, we can not makes laws re writing God's law. The fact that were doing that, ignoring God is ushering in the anti Christ.

 

[benedictaoo]

I agree that secularism is a problem (but it has its roots in something far older than communism). There is much work to do, and our Bishops' Conference has steadfastly advocated for laws that will please Christ. These issues all deserve our support and we are blessed not to have to pick and choose between them.

Great.

 

[pdudgeon]

God's ability is without limit. I have limits. I always fall short of perfection in service. I am glad that you don't.

Mike, you're missing the point.
when we work in our own strength of course we fall short.
when we work with God as our strength it is enough. Our efforts are enough because He comes along side us, He enlists the help and prayers of others that we know nothing about, and with His help we can do all things to their completion.

and yes, the difference between the two ways of working is nothing short of magnificient.

and getting back to Enoch and Elijah, (case in point) they worked so well with God,
that He scheduled them for an encore performance in front of the whole world.
(and that's a pretty good indication of His approval.)

 

[benedictaoo]

You are mistaken. There is nothing that I have said that suggests that I support apostasy or secularism in spite of your recent accusations. I have consistently repeated the call for us to do more for Christ and to demonstrate just how wonderful the gift we've been given is. I don't know how you misinterpret that, and I don't understand what all the angst and smh-ing is over.

I said because you're debating this. And I didn't accuse you, its what i concluded from your post because of the debating. So I asked you to help me understand if I'm mistaken, i asked nicely too. Thank you for answering.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I know when I was a Protestant the thought was as Scripture says it is appointed to all of us to die once. So it was thought that Enoch and Elijah were the logical choice.

And they represent the two races of the Church—Jew and Gentile.