End Times View

[heavensblade23]

??? What? Nobody said anything like that. Who called anything satanic?

You haven't been reading this thread or any other if you don't think there are serious disagreements in this forum.

No offense, but that is ignorant and hypocritical. First, It's not one of the most important doctrines when the tribulation will happen or if there will be a millennium or not. How did you decide that.

The promise of the Second Coming is surely one of Christianity's most important doctrines. I'd say the penalties for accepting a false Christ or not preparing for the end times are substantial.

Take evolution, how can somebody take evolution seriously when they can't even agree how it happened? Was it gradualism or punctuated equilibrium? Or did it have assistants from aliens as some claim? Or maybe God did it as some say? Or maybe it was a result of monkeys having sex with aliens as some claim? And how long did it take? 4.5 Billion years? 65 Million years? Or maybe Hoyle was right when he proved it would take over 1 and a quarter trillion years? And where did the universe come from in evolution? Big Bang? Theism? Deism? Aliens? Gasses? Energy? Evolutionists look at selected science (That which they want to see and ignore the rest) and a Christian looks at The Bible. If your a Christian you agree on the major things and sometimes disagree on the minor. If your an evolutionist you look at the pick and choose science and never agree on anything. How can anyone take evolution seriously?

You misunderstand both science and evolution. For starters, theories about the origin of the universe have no bearing on the theory of evolution. You can have the Big Bang without evolution and evolution without the Big Bang. Even abiogenesis is an entire separate field than evolution. Other than that, I don't want to turn this into evolution debate because there's already a forum for it.

 

[Brother Shuler]

You haven't been reading this thread or any other if you don't think there are serious disagreements in this forum.



The promise of the Second Coming is surely one of Christianity's most important doctrines. I'd say the penalties for accepting a false Christ or not preparing for the end times are substantial.



You misunderstand both science and evolution. For starters, theories about the origin of the universe have no bearing on the theory of evolution. You can have the Big Bang without evolution and evolution without the Big Bang. Even abiogenesis is an entire separate field than evolution. Other than that, I don't want to turn this into evolution debate because there's already a forum for it.

First, nobody said satanic here. I have not been reading the whole site and it's childish to accuse secondary things of being satanic.
Second, No one doubts the second coming. The issue is the TRIBULATION. No one doubts that the second coming is coming and after the tribulation, they just question when the tribulation will happen.
Third, did you read what I said? I gave you the different ideas. No one knows what evolution is. They can't agree on anything. Christianity agrees on the major things, evolution agrees on nothing. They don't know what kind of evolution, when, how long, how it started, how it will end, how it happens, and they have theory upon theory to try to explain it and can't agree on anything. The point is that Christianity isn't fighting itself, it has minor disagreements. Evolution is destroying itself, they don't know anything about anything. If minor disagreements in Christianity mean it can't be taken seriously, then evolution disagreeing on everything means you can't take it seriously. That is why I said it was hypocritical, when you don't like something you say it can't be taken seriously for X, when you do like it, even though it has 1,000 times the X as what you don't like, it's no problem.

 

[heavensblade23]

First, nobody said satanic here. I have not been reading the whole site and it's childish to accuse secondary things of being satanic.

You're not even reading your own thread's replies, apparently.

Third, did you read what I said? I gave you the different ideas. No one knows what evolution is. They can't agree on anything.

They agree organisms adapt to their environments over time through natural selection and that some species out-compete other species who didn't adapt as well, which is pretty much the theory of evolution in a nutshell.

Christianity agrees on the major things, evolution agrees on nothing. They don't know what kind of evolution, when, how long, how it started, how it will end, how it happens, and they have theory upon theory to try to explain it and can't agree on anything.

You don't even understand what the theory of evolution entails since you're trying to conflate it with the big bang theory. Two different theories, two different fields of science. They have nothing in common, other than being two different naturalistic explanations for observed facts. I have no idea where you got the bit about aliens...that's more of an 'intelligent design' argument to camouflage the fact that it's just creationism in a cheap suit.

The point is that Christianity isn't fighting itself, it has minor disagreements.

I wouldn't call the disagreement between protestantism and catholicism 'minor', just to name one example. Plenty of groups out there believing some other group is promoting heresy.

Evolution is destroying itself, they don't know anything about anything.

Again, you seem to have some severely mistaken ideas about what the theory of evolution actually states.

If minor disagreements in Christianity mean it can't be taken seriously, then evolution disagreeing on everything means you can't take it seriously. That is why I said it was hypocritical, when you don't like something you say it can't be taken seriously for X, when you do like it, even though it has 1,000 times the X as what you don't like, it's no problem.

Like I said, evolutionary biologists agree on the fact that life evolves through natural selection of beneficial traits...if they didn't agree on that then they wouldn't be evolutionary biologists, any more than I could call myself a theologist.

In any case there's no stated risk in believing the wrong thing within the field of evolutionary biology. The theory that has the most supporting evidence will eventually win. The stated risk for believing the wrong thing about religion couldn't be any higher.

I'm okay with the idea of evolutionary biology occasionally being wrong...are you okay with the idea of Christianity occasionally being wrong?
Science is dynamic...if something is wrong now, we'll probably find out eventually and it will be replaced with something better. It's not purporting itself to be the word of God, just human observation. When some aspect of the Bible is proven wrong, your whole house of cards is at risk of falling down, since the book it's based on is supposed to be God's revelation to mankind.

 

[garry2]

[/font]
more of your wonderful Christian decorum....that love again, eh? You are such a sweetheart....not...saying that I do not know Him...judgemental again....never stops with you.

Just saying the truth.


almost anyone that converses here with you, will tell you the same thing garry2....you are just plain out nasty...

Near every post from you is name calling.


have at it....you planted your seeds... I have planted the ones that I planted...we shall see which God grows...



I don't think we should converse anymore, for obvious reasons...you insult people on a personal level...constantly.....you just don't stop...you don't seem to think that you are doing anything wrong....

I'm not.

any truth that I have to share with you probably will not be accepted...

Truth is always accepted but does much come from you, look below.

because of you personal feelings...so we might as well just stop, right...

perhaps you can go find some one else to cyberbully....to judge....to insult....


'cause if non-Christians are getting a negative message from 2 supposed Christians, then there is something wrong there...

There is something wrong there, someone.


so just move on...please in Jesus' name.


c

zeek37
the clouds is a mass multitude of returning believers....as it is with other Pauline books/apistles...Heb1

You keep rejecting scripture and twisting it and adding to and taking away from to make scripture say what you want it to say.

The cloud is not a mass multitude of returning beleivers, it is a cloud, Paul even added in the air.

I'ts impossible not to understand these verses, one would have to want it to say diffrently to change what it says.

1 thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord descends from heaven, the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive are caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air.

It's as plain as can be.

 

[Biblewriter]

I don't care what you think as long as it's orthodox. If it ain't then it is "evil".
I did not combine Historic and Futurist. I combined Historic and Pre-Millennialist. I'm not responsible for that, I became a Historic Pre-Millennialist before I knew they existed. I didn't invent the name.

I understand you now.

I have to disagree on interpretation. The rapture is at His coming. No one will deny that. The only coming mentioned specifically is the second coming after the tribulation. If your post-trib you just assume since no other coming is mentioned and since the rapture is mentioned at the end of the tribulation in the Olivet Discourse that there is only one coming and one rapture. If your pre-trib you have to prove there is another coming besides the second coming or that the second coming is in two stages.

I have heard this from post-tribbers again and again, and I have a real problem with it. The fact that no scripture specifically states that there will be more than one future coming does not mean that only one coming is mentioned. The following two scriptures both specifically mention a coming, but they describe very different things.

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:1-3)

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 14-15)

In the first of these, Jesus very specifically says He "will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." In the second one "the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." In the first one he comes for us, in the second one he comes with us. These are two radically different concepts. (And as to their respective timing, if he comes for us, and also comes with us, the coming for us obviously happens before the coming with us.)

Again, we read, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11) In this case, our Lord did not make any kind of a public display. Such a display would indeed have proven who He was to the entire world. But He did not do this. Instead, He rose before a small, private, company of his believers. And the angel told them that he would "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

But then we are told that "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." (Revelation 1:7) In the first case it is a private affair for only his believers, in the second "every eye shall see him."

Again, we read the basic scripture for the rapture; "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

This coming is specifically mentioned, but it does not even resemble the coming specifically mentioned here:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16)

So the claim that scripture only contains one future coming has no merit. It never specifically says that there will be more than one, but it specifically mentions more than one coming. The three scriptures I have quoted for the first coming are completely compatible, and the three I quoted for the second coming are completely compatible. But the two sets of passages describe markedly different scenarios.

I have no disrespect for the pre-trib position, I used to hold it.

Thank you. I appreciate your attitude. This is sadly missing in many who profess the name we love so well.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Post Trib/Pre Mil here also. Was a Pre-Tribber for over 35 years until the blinders were removed, and now the confusion is gone

 

[zeke37]

I understand you now.

I have heard this from post-tribbers again and again, and I have a real problem with it. The fact that no scripture specifically states that there will be more than one future coming does not mean that only one coming is mentioned.

Acts1:9-11.

The following two scriptures both specifically mention a coming, but they describe very different things.

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:1-3)

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 14-15)

In the first of these, Jesus very specifically says He "will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." In the second one "the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." In the first one he comes for us, in the second one he comes with us. These are two radically different concepts. (And as to their respective timing, if he comes for us, and also comes with us, the coming for us obviously happens before the coming with us.)

the first is speaking of Christ's mission in total...He goes to the cross, then to the prison, frees many, and comes back to earth Ressurrected and teaches, then accends into heaven....and promises to come back in like fashion from where and how He left...

this is the foundation for our belief. This belief in Christ is the rest that we get,

mansions actually means more like, resting place...abode....
and that is what we have in Christ. We rest in Him...and Christ is the only way to The Father...that is what He meant.

No one today is actually with God....at His Throne... but Christ.

no men that were redeemed....they are near Him, around or under, but not AT.

Christ is making a way for the AT........the fulfillment of which begins at the 2nd Coming...with the firstfruits....and ends at the end of the Lord's Day (Millennium)


the second passage is more strait forward about the end of the hour of tribulation, His 2nd Coming, which marks the beginning of the Millennium.




Again, we read, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11) In this case, our Lord did not make any kind of a public display. Such a display would indeed have proven who He was to the entire world. But He did not do this. Instead, He rose before a small, private, company of his believers. And the angel told them that he would "come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Well, are you suggesting that only a few will see Him come?
Since that is not correct, the passage is refering to HOW He will come, not who shall see Him....Rev1:7




But then we are told that "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." (Revelation 1:7) In the first case it is a private affair for only his believers, in the second "every eye shall see him."

no we are not told that Biblewriter...we are told in the first that ALL believers have that promise and Coming to look forward to (not just pre tribbers), because only then can all things be made right.... and after the Millennial refinement, ALL who are still God's children can then get back to being actually with the Father....

the first scripture in John that you quoted is not specific to a pre trib event....it is for all of us over all time...all believers dead and alive....

it just does not point in the direction that you are saying that it does.

it points to the proof that our belief in what Christ did, is how we get to rest forever with God....to live with Him in hIs presence...Christ became our Sabbath rest....our Highest Sabbath (Passover) 1Cor5:7. We rest in Him every day. We can rest from our labours after the Lord's Day.


Again, we read the basic scripture for the rapture; "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

This coming is specifically mentioned, but it does not even resemble the coming specifically mentioned here:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16)

it is the same event which should become obvious when coupled with the other end time events....see the Olivette discourse for example...that Gathering to Christ happens post tribulation, after the time of testing. Mat24:29-31:, Mar13:24-27

So the claim that scripture only contains one future coming has no merit.

sure it does, it has explanations of dirrerent angles/point of view....but only One Coming/Appearing to look forward to...not two, unless you die in the flesh before the Hour of tribulation...then you would be part of that heavenly army of elect believers...that great cloud of witnesses that returns with Him. Just as 1Thes4 says...

and the subject of the latter part of 1Thes4 is found in verse 13...."Don't be ignorant of where the dead are". They are alive in Heaven and Christ shall bring them back when He Comes back to earth


and when He does Come and bring the dead elect back to earth, the alive elect who are here already are changed into the same kind of body (like the angels) as the dead elect have, and Gathered together with them.

only one event...not two.....same one in 1Cor15...after that time that the son of perdition/man of sin comes, as 2Thes2 states....after.



It never specifically says that there will be more than one, but it specifically mentions more than one coming.

I did not read that, nor seen it proven from your answers...only that there are different angles observed, because we could never get all the info into only one vision or prophesy....too much happens. But there is certainly enough to keep us aware that it is the same event.

The three scriptures I have quoted for the first coming are completely compatible, and the three I quoted for the second coming are completely compatible. But the two sets of passages describe markedly different scenarios.

Thank you. I appreciate your attitude. This is sadly missing in many who profess the name we love so well.

you and I and all, have the freedom to believe what we do....but there is nothing here that would even make me consider that there is a pre trib Gathering to Christ, unless one dies in the flesh first (as all but the elect alive at the time will, obviously).

The Gathering spoken of in 1Thes4 says that It is at the same time as the dead are brought back here with Christ. And from Mat24:27-29 and Mar13:24-27 we can know for certain that the time is after, not before the hour of temptation. it is AFTER. The Gathering of the Elect on earth and from heaven, happens after.....just as 2Thes2 says...

I do not see how you being intelligent (because you are), can despute this? take no offense.

You're not even reading your own thread's replies, apparently.


I'm okay with the idea of evolutionary biology occasionally being wrong...are you okay with the idea of Christianity occasionally being wrong?

the history of many Christian peoples has been wrong....but true Christianity is not nor will ever be wrong. Defining that is part of the problem.

there is not 30,000 versions of the truth....there is so much of what is taught in Christianity is traditions of man, and not the true message that God would have us come to know...just as with the pre trib rapture theory..

The world is billions of years old.
but mankind is not.....
we (our inner being or soul) are.

there is no evolution of mankind...and I would think that true science would recognize that. There is alot of similarity in genetic material among the life on earth, but that is true even among species that are very different.

there is no proof, there is no scattered remains of every stage in between, for us to study, yet we do have dino bones to study from 100's of million of years old....

we would have the ground so littered with all the stages, that it would not be disputable, yet we do not.


meaning, flesh life may have been here for a very long time, but not flesh mankind...God put us here after He ended the first age, and started this one.




Science is dynamic...if something is wrong now, we'll probably find out eventually and it will be replaced with something better. It's not purporting itself to be the word of God, just human observation. When some aspect of the Bible is proven wrong, your whole house of cards is at risk of falling down, since the book it's based on is supposed to be God's revelation to mankind.

no aspect of the bible is ever proven wrong.... not when the Word is divided properly, with the manuscripts language.....there is not even one contradiction.

now, the way some denominations choose to interpret the Word, that is most of the time, incorrect....the milk is agreed upon, but the meat is not.

and it is the meat that we are to absorb after we are weined off of the milk.


many transations loose a lot, and many denominations ans sects interpret things their own way (contrary) but if it seems like a contradiction, then you have understood it wrong.

what specifically do you have a problem with?



in His service
c

 

[Markea]

Pre trib, Pre-mil here.

The key to this scriptural view (imo) is understanding the difference between the Israel of God and the church of God...

Many in Christendom continue to teach that the church is Israel, regardless of the fact that the bible does not teach that at all.

 

[garry2]

Post Trib/Pre Mil here also. Was a Pre-Tribber for over 35 years until the blinders were removed, and now the confusion is gone

The earth will act this way because it knows there is a new earth coming.

The earth has the mind of God. ha ha.

 

[garry2]

zeek37
mansions actually means more like, resting place...abode....
and that is what we have in Christ. We rest in Him...and Christ is the only way to The Father...that is what He meant.

We live in Christ, the mansions are in Christs Fathers house, the verse is exactly as it says, stop twisting Gods word.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

No one today is actually with God....at His Throne... but Christ.

revelation 4
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

the second passage is more strait forward about the end of the hour of tribulation, His 2nd Coming, which marks the beginning of the Millennium.

His second coming, first resurrection and millennium.
Of course this is not the rapture which happened some time before.

it is the same event which should become obvious when coupled with the other end time events....see the Olivette discourse for example...that Gathering to Christ happens post tribulation, after the time of testing. Mat24:29-31:, Mar13:24-27

If it is post tribulation then it is the second coming, not rapture.

and the subject of the latter part of 1Thes4 is found in verse 13...."Don't be ignorant of where the dead are". They are alive in Heaven and Christ shall bring them back when He Comes back to earth


Those that sleep in christ, will Jesus bring with Him. (Their spirits) which are then joined with their risen glorified bodys in the clouds in the air with Jesus.


1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


you and I and all, have the freedom to believe what we do....but there is nothing here that would even make me consider that there is a pre trib Gathering to Christ, unless one dies in the flesh first (as all but the elect alive at the time will, obviously).

Whereas paul says I tell you a secret, some will not taste death, and that's true as death is known, but we do die for a moment in the twinkling of an eye when our flesh bodies are glorified to immortal bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The world is billions of years old.
but mankind is not.....
we (our inner being or soul) are.

Not from the bible.

 

[Biblewriter]

well, there has to be a correct understanding...and I do not think that God wants us to say "any of them could be correct" but I certainly applaud your acknowledgement that your is JUST one of many possible ways to understand that time frame...

I did not say, or even imply, that pre-trib is JUST one of many possible ways to understand that time frame. If I believed that, I would not bother to post messages here. I believe that post trib is based on a serious misunderstanding of the meanings of many prophetic terms used in the Bible. But I am very, very serious about being reverent with the Holy Word. It is a sin to claim that the Bible says anything it does not say. And the Bible does not specifically say when the rapture will occur.

By saying it is only an interpretation, I am simply saying that I recognize that my intellect is not infallible. The Bible is infallible, but my (or anyone else's) interpretation of what those words mean is not infallible. So any time I apply my intellect to anything God said, I introduce a possibility of error.

well, the post tribbers here would disagree...I was pre trib at one time, but study and prayer lead my being happily post trib...pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams, while post trib is prophesied of many multiple times.

This is simply incorrect.

Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse, disguised as an angel of light, with a flood of lies hat fools the world....into worshiping him as God...

Revelation 13:11 indeed says that Satan's man comes looking like a lamb, but it also says that he comes speaking like a dragon. (That is, he looks like Jesus, but speaks like Satan himself.) Thus his words will make his true character plain to any true believer. No child of God will be deceived by him. This is not my opinion, it is scripture, for Mathew 24:24 says that the false Christs "shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The words "if it were possible" show that this will not be possible. Jesus also referred to this in John 10:4-5 when he said that his sheep "know his voice, And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him:"

he is coming to play church and convert you....by lies....claiming to be Jesus come back....





and sinse Satan comes first, and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah, then there is a problem if there is no pre trib......agree? the first one to come, pretrends top be Jesus and fools the world...including the Christians...all but the elect Christian witnesses.

I never heard any pre-tribber anywhere, even the most ignorant one, say that "the first Jesus to come is Messiah," or anything even faintly resembling that. The scriptures plainly say that there will be many false Christs.

I would ask Biblewriter, do the dead believers get raised at the pre trib rapture, the 2nd Coming or both? (not including the rest of the dead of Rev20)

Is this supposed to be some kind of a hard problem? It seems to me that it is obvious that all of God's own who died before the rapture will be raised at that time. Any who die after that will be raised at the second coming.

I tried to copy and past some of your comments from your second post to me, but cannot do it directly, so I will have to just comment generally.

You asked if I was saying that only s few would see him come, and then said that was wrong, because it would be for all believers.

I was saying that only his own would see him at the time of the rapture, but all would see him when he comes to judge. We have been over the partial rapture before, you should remember that I do not believe that, as I have had very intense debates with Garry2 about it.

The Gathering spoken of in 1Thes4 says that It is at the same time as the dead are brought back here with Christ. And from Mat24:27-29 and Mar13:24-27 we can know for certain that the time is after, not before the hour of temptation. it is AFTER. The Gathering of the Elect on earth and from heaven, happens after.....just as 2Thes2 says...

I do not see how you being intelligent (because you are), can despute this? take no offense.

I take no offense at this, it includes a compliment, thank you. But I cannot see where you get this out of this scripture. 1 Thes 4 does not say, or even imply, that the bringing back will happen at the same time as the rapture.

 

[Markea]

And from Mat24:27-29 and Mar13:24-27 we can know for certain that the time is after, not before the hour of temptation. it is AFTER.

The problem with this is that you're applying Matthew 24 and Mark 13 to the church of God, when the church of God didn't even exist at this point in time. The events in Matt 24 and Mark 13 pertain to the nation of Israel... not to the church of God...

The context of these chapters reveal this... those in JUDEA should flee to the mountains... pray that it's not on the Sabbath... etc... nothing to do with the church of God... and again... the church didn't even exist when the Lord spoke in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.

 

[Biblewriter]

The problem with this is that you're applying Matthew 24 and Mark 13 to the church of God, when the church of God didn't even exist at this point in time. The events in Matt 24 and Mark 13 pertain to the nation of Israel... not to the church of God...

The context of these chapters reveal this... those in JUDEA should flee to the mountains... pray that it's not on the Sabbath... etc... nothing to do with the church of God... and again... the church didn't even exist when the Lord spoke in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.

For what it's worth, I agree with you.

But what I say, or what you say, doesn't matter. Only what the Bible says matters.

 

[Markea]

But what I say, or what you say, doesn't matter. Only what the Bible says matters.

I would think that everyone agrees with this. We all share opinions on the scriptures, that's basically all we can do.

Zeke's comment interested me because I often shared the same argument... ie, using Matt 24 to show people that the gathering of the elect was AFTER the tribulation... although when we look at the context of these chapters, and realize that this was a conversation before the church of God came into existence... it makes sense that it has nothing to do with the church of God... at least to me... lol...

IMO, one of the greater problems in Christendom is the confounding of Israel with the church of God.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

What are your views of the end?
I'm a Futurist, Post-Tribulation, Historic Pre-Millennialist.

Me too

 

[zeke37]

Originally Posted by zeke37

well, there has to be a correct understanding...and I do not think that God wants us to say "any of them could be correct" but I certainly applaud your acknowledgement that your is JUST one of many possible ways to understand that time frame...
​

Biblewriter says-I did not say, or even imply, that pre-trib is JUST one of many possible ways to understand that time frame. If I believed that, I would not bother to post messages here.

well, you have said that in the past...even lately, have you not? if not I appologize...actually I think that the point you were trying to convey is that the bible does not come outright and tell us if the rapture is post or pre or mid trib....but we are left to base our own opinions (if that is the right word) and yours is that the Gathering to Christ called the rapture, is pre trib....is that correct?

I believe that post trib is based on a serious misunderstanding of the meanings of many prophetic terms used in the Bible.

as I do about pre trib...

But I am very, very serious about being reverent with the Holy Word. It is a sin to claim that the Bible says anything it does not say.

I agree...

And the Bible does not specifically say when the rapture will occur.

I disagree...as far as before or after the tribulation hour...or both???

By saying it is only an interpretation, I am simply saying that I recognize that my intellect is not infallible.

cool....

The Bible is infallible, but my (or anyone else's) interpretation of what those words mean is not infallible.

agreed....anyone is capable of making a mistake, even the best bible scholar in the world...who ever that is, lol. We all evolved in our understanding, from one position to our current level...

So any time I apply my intellect to anything God said, I introduce a possibility of error.

YEP, we all do. That is what I thought you meant, even if I did not word it that way...your realization of that fact that we all share, is one reason why I enjoy conversing with you...

well, the post tribbers here would disagree...I was pre trib at one time, but study and prayer lead my being happily post trib...pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams, while post trib is prophesied of many multiple times.
​

This is simply incorrect.

how so? wishful thinking = to leave the planet and not be tested...or not go into captivity, when we all are going in....the Assyrian commeth right? God let the world out to husbandmen, and it is kinda strange to think of those farmers leaving the farm before the harvest is in???

hollywood dreams = left behind and all of that, from books about Dante's inferno or dreams from Margret MacDonald...or denominations started by Darby and the lot...all based on very bad understandings of scripture...mans traditions.

Post trib is prophesied about every time, sinse there is no pre trib rapture....lol. seriously, AFTER is mentioned and implied how many times? all of them IMO...

Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse, disguised as an angel of light, with a flood of lies hat fools the world....into worshiping him as God...
​

Revelation 13:11 indeed says that Satan's man comes looking like a lamb, but it also says that he comes speaking like a dragon. (That is, he looks like Jesus, but speaks like Satan himself.)

at least you see the point of the disguised fallen angel looking like Jesus returned...most pre tribbers do not for some reason....

Thus his words will make his true character plain to any true believer.

eventually yes...but at first, he completely deceives the planet with his flood of lies and his miracles..including all Christians who are not part of that witnessing election that was chosen for this purpose...to overcome Satan in this age and then to become those great judges and teachers in the Millennium....

The Christians alive at the time of that last hour will believe that the fallen angel Satan (who is cast to the earth for a short season) is Jesus returned....(IMO, because they are expecting the real Jesus to come first to rapture them away, even though the fake must come first to fool them, it will make this play of Satan's very attractive....because the fooled will actually think tha they are doing good and worshiping Jesus....Christ shall be their stumbling block).....all but those few witnesses shall be fooled...Mat10, Luke21:12-19, Rom11, Rev10,11

what better means to fool you by, pre trib....changing when He comes....to when he comes...

that time will come upon the world as a thief does...because the world will think Christ is already here on earth and all is well....preparing for the rapture....lies......when in reality the world is already in the hour of temptation and they don't even know it at all....including ALL Christians, except the elect...

(If you are pre trib at that time) you will not even know that you are in that hour, because you will think it is before that hour, and you will think that Christ is here getting ready for the rapture....but it is really Satan cast from heaven to deceive the world, and overcoming the saints...all but the elect witnesses....whose testimony activates the seal that God placed in the 144,000....and then at least they come OUT of Babyl(on)....


and then Christ returns...

then the rest get taught for 1000 years...


No child of God will be deceived by him.

sure they will, all of His children....good bad and inbetween... but the elect will not be fooled...ALL those that get the mark in Rev9 are still His children...fooled as they are...stung (fooled) but not dead....deceived, beguiled...wholy seduced...part of those who claim to be the bride, will be with child, impregnated with Satan's lies, worshiping him as Jesus....before Christ arrives...Mat24:15-31

we still have the Millennium to look forward to and the cleansing of the Sanctuary....(the people-believers are the temple) in that same Lord's Day...those fooled on purpose by God, shall receive the truth in the Millennium...2Thes2/Ez44



This is not my opinion, it is scripture,

ya, that is what I say too....boat loads of it....

for Mathew 24:24 says that the false Christs "shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The words "if it were possible" show that this will not be possible.

I also do not think that it is possible to fool the elect....but who is elect? Not all Christians are elect....only those with the seal of God are elect, not all christians....there are 2 paths....there are 10 virgins and 5 get in...there are many called, but few chosen, there are 2 on the roof and one is taken (in the flood of lies from the dragon), there are 7 churches and only two have no chastizement given by Christ

ther are many antiChrists, but there is only one The antiChrist, which is a title for Satan, one of many....a role as the false prophet is a role or title of the same individual entity Satan...Jesus is the true Prophet, and Satan is the false prophet.

Jesus also referred to this in John 10:4-5 when he said that his sheep "know his voice, And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him:"

yep...doesn't change the fact that many will be fooled....many may think that they know His voice, but if they are fooled then they obviously do not....there are 2 Jesus'...and one comes to deceive....

what good would deceiving a bunch of no believers do? but deceiving believers into worshiping him as God returned, now that is something....

in the hour of tribulation, only the elect overcome...no one else....no Christian that is not elect, can overcome in this time. they have to wait...

those 144,0000 who are sealed and understand the Word and what to do int hat time, teach the fooled ones in the Millennium....and those fooled ones get a real chance with the blinders off, to see truth and learn it properly and have a chance to defeat Satan when he is released again at the end of the Lord's day...and join the Bride...that is the second resurrection....

he is coming to play church and convert you....by lies....claiming to be Jesus come back....





and sinse Satan comes first, and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah, then there is a problem if there is no pre trib......agree? the first one to come, pretrends top be Jesus and fools the world...including the Christians...all but the elect Christian witnesses.
​

I never heard any pre-tribber anywhere, even the most ignorant one, say that "the first Jesus to come is Messiah," or anything even faintly resembling that. The scriptures plainly say that there will be many false Christs.

yet all pre tribbers believe that Jesus will come and Gather them before the antiChrsit comes, this end time Assyrian...so they (pre tribbers) think that they will avoid the hour of temptation....the individual beast of the latter half of Rev13.

ALL pre tribbers believe that they will be taken by the first Jesus, not the Second....and then they believe that they come back after the hour of temptation, with the first one....as a third showing....

post tribbers believe that they shall be taken by the Second Jesus, not the first...as the first onme comes to deceive us all if it be possible....

I would ask Biblewriter, do the dead believers get raised at the pre trib rapture, the 2nd Coming or both? (not including the rest of the dead of Rev20)
​

Is this supposed to be some kind of a hard problem?

not at all, it is supposed to be rhetorical...

It seems to me that it is obvious that all of God's own who died before the rapture will be raised at that time. Any who die after that will be raised at the second coming.

huh? that is the part that is fantasy...

there is no early event, pre tribulation, because we learn when the dead are raised....and that is in 1Thes4:13f which you agree....

and we see the dead elect coming with Christ also in Mat24:29-31 and Mar13:24-27, which is clearly after that time of testing...and they are likewise Gathered together...same scenario as 1Thes4. AFTER


there is not going to be any flesh death in the tribulation hour...none at all...heaven will be closed for renovations...lol....lots of spiritual dying and possible spiritual death going on on the earth, but no physical death.

Rev9 states that the Locust army is not allowed to kill anyone with the mark of the beast....none at all but just sting them hurt them...

and all others (those Sealed of God) are covered with the protection of God in Luk21:12-19

so no death...until the Devil Satan oversteps that condition/boundary and kills the two olive trees...of Rev11...

that brings God down...but first the testimony of the witnessing elect (7000) ....and then Christ truly comes back....and the Millennium starts...

I tried to copy and past some of your comments from your second post to me, but cannot do it directly, so I will have to just comment generally.

my appologies...


You asked if I was saying that only s few would see him come, and then said that was wrong, because it would be for all believers.

I was saying that only his own would see him at the time of the rapture, but all would see him when he comes to judge.

I see that as the same time...no years in between, but the Judgement lasts the entire Millennium.

We have been over the partial rapture before, you should remember that I do not believe that, as I have had very intense debates with Garry2 about it.

yep, I remember....

continued​

 

[zeke37]

The Gathering spoken of in 1Thes4 says that It is at the same time as the dead are brought back here with Christ. And from Mat24:27-29 and Mar13:24-27 we can know for certain that the time is after, not before the hour of temptation. it is AFTER. The Gathering of the Elect on earth and from heaven, happens after.....just as 2Thes2 says...

I do not see how you being intelligent (because you are), can despute this? take no offense.
​

I take no offense at this, it includes a compliment, thank you. But I cannot see where you get this out of this scripture. 1 Thes 4 does not say, or even imply, that the bringing back will happen at the same time as the rapture.

1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

verse 17's clouds.....see Paul's use in Heb12

air = spirit/celestial body of the mystery change of 1Cor15...which is at the same time...

remember that Christ is coming here with them....not going there with them....coming here...as verse14 says...with Him.....



now, what makes you think that this is not the same dead as the Gospels Olivette prophesy? AFTER???

curious?
thanks...

in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

The problem with this is that you're applying Matthew 24 and Mark 13 to the church of God, when the church of God didn't even exist at this point in time.

Sure they did....a very small church but they existed...not yet even named as Christians but certainly there was a following from which to build...else where would we be today? lost

The events in Matt 24 and Mark 13 pertain to the nation of Israel... not to the church of God...

they pertain to the world...and the end hour, not just to the current days nation of Israel...but rather to all of ancient Israel's current descendants...us.

Jesus warned us of false Christ's....believers are warned about false Christs....no, this is definitely about all, not just the Jews...sorry. Israel has 2 houses....read of them.

The context of these chapters reveal this... those in JUDEA should flee to the mountains... pray that it's not on the Sabbath... etc... nothing to do with the church of God... and again... the church didn't even exist when the Lord spoke in Matthew 24 or Mark 13.

the context reveals the physical location of Satan pretending to be Jesus as being in Jerusalem (location of the abomination of desolation).....and that is where the culmination of events shall happen, the bulls eye....the focal point.....God's favorite place.

if you are there, when Satan is there pretending to be Jesus, then get away...flee....because certin destruction comes...

and you (bride in waiting) better not be pregnant either when He comes(impregnated with lies of Satan, Jesus is expecting a virgin bride, not a harlot....), or taken (by deception in the flood of lies),

where ever 2 are gathered in His name....and certainly they were Gathered in His name even before any formalized church was built...WE are the temple of God, not bricks and mortar...



Mat24 and Mar 13 are for all of us, not JUST the Jews....who are only a part of Israel, a small part. The end time events are told not of the temple of brick....but He spoke to them of His body...and the end of the age....not the end of Jerusalem only...

...but the end of the age....and His return...Mat24:3,

what are the signs when all these things shall be fulfilled...Mar13:4

in His service
c

 

[zeke37]

I would think that everyone agrees with this. We all share opinions on the scriptures, that's basically all we can do.

Zeke's comment interested me because I often shared the same argument... ie, using Matt 24 to show people that the gathering of the elect was AFTER the tribulation... although when we look at the context of these chapters, and realize that this was a conversation before the church of God came into existence... it makes sense that it has nothing to do with the church of God... at least to me... lol...

but the disciples were the early church and they asked Christ the question privately...and it is phrased not concerning the Jews, but concerning the end of the age and Christ's Coming.

can't get any more for Christians than that, I don't think...


Mat24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

IMO, one of the greater problems in Christendom is the confounding of Israel with the church of God.

actually the error is cramming all of Israel into one tribe of Judah...it doesn't fit at all.....there are 12.....the scattered northern tribes...it's true...many folks forget about them, like they don't exist...

If Israel only knew who they were....in prophesy...

Judah and Israel have their own separate end time prophesies...for 2 different groups of people, one known by His name, and one not...ignorant of who they are....


in His service
c

 

[Markea]

but the disciples were the early church and they asked Christ the question privately...and it is phrased not concerning the Jews, but concerning the end of the age and Christ's Coming.

can't get any more for Christians than that, I don't think...


Mat24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Zeke,

If you'd like to continue to apply Matt 24 to the church of God, then that's your prerogative. I certainly will not... the church of God didn't yet exist when the disciples had this conversation with the Lord... and again... look at the context... "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains"... or ... "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day"...

But again, you can continue to apply these things to the church of God, even though it didn't exist at the time of this conversation, many folks do this same thing...

actually the error is cramming all of Israel into one tribe of Judah...it doesn't fit at all.....there are 12.....the scattered northern tribes...it's true...many folks forget about them, like they don't exist...

If Israel only knew who they were....in prophesy...

Judah and Israel have their own separate end time prophesies...for 2 different groups of people, one known by His name, and one not...ignorant of who they are....


in His service
c

The gospels and the Revelation make it perfectly clear that there will be twelve tribes when the Lord returns... So I have no idea who you're addressing this toward.