What are your views of the end?
I'm a Futurist, Post-Tribulation, Historic Pre-Millennialist.
I'm a Futurist, Post-Tribulation, Historic Pre-Millennialist.
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End Times View
- Thread starter Brother Shuler
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Wow! I thought all the others died. Donald Grey Barnhouse, Walter Martin, George Eldon Ladd. I thought the only one left besides me was Al Mohler.
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INTRODUCTION
I like to keep my victory on the top Read from bottom up
VISION OF IMAGERY EXPLAINED------------------------------Rev.1/20
CONQUERER OF DEATH--------------------------------------Rev.1/18
VISION OF CHRIST------------------------------------------Rev.1/13
VISION OF SEVEN CHURCHES--------------------------------Rev.1/11
VISION ON PATMOS------------------------------------------Rev.1/9
VISION OF SECOND COMING----------------------------------Rev.1/7
MESSAGE TO THE CHURCHES---------------------------------Rev.1/4
REVELATIONS OF CHRIST TO JOHN---------------------------Rev.1/1
FIRST PAGE OF------- ELEVEN ELEMENTS--------------------Rev.1/1-20
Thing which Thu seen,chart.walt2000
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- May 15, 2005
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Sorry, I am pre-trib. But I freely admit that this is an interpretation of scripture, as are the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post trib positions. The Bible simply does not say when the rapture will happen, only that it will. ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretation. But the various interpretations are not based so much upon different scriptures as upon different interpretations of the meanings of various end-time terms used in the Bible. If one set of interpretations of the meanings of these terms is correct, then one conclusion is obvious. If another set of interpretations of the meanings of these terms is correct, then a different conclusion is obvious. We only have a problem when certain people begin to call those who interpret the scriptures differently "evil." Those who do not agree with you on these points may very well love the Lord and understand the scriptures (at least generally) just as well as you. They just see things differently.
I have a difficulty understanding your combination of the words Futurist and Historic.
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I don't care what you think as long as it's orthodox. If it ain't then it is "evil".
I did not combine Historic and Futurist. I combined Historic and Pre-Millennialist. I'm not responsible for that, I became a Historic Pre-Millennialist before I knew they existed. I didn't invent the name.
I have to disagree on interpretation. The rapture is at His coming. No one will deny that. The only coming mentioned specifically is the second coming after the tribulation. If your post-trib you just assume since no other coming is mentioned and since the rapture is mentioned at the end of the tribulation in the Olivet Discourse that there is only one coming and one rapture. If your pre-trib you have to prove there is another coming besides the second coming or that the second coming is in two stages.
I have no disrespect for the pre-trib position, I used to hold it.
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heavensblade23
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Why do we need a second thread on exactly the same topic when the first one is still getting bumped?
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cyberlizard
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Personally, I am pre-millenial, post tribulational..... anything else is (at least in my mind) wishful thinking....
my wife on the other hand is pan-tribulational.
Steve
my wife on the other hand is pan-tribulational.
Steve
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zeke37
IMO...
Hi...you understand the question fine...you answered it...we agree...
some here believe that the tribulation covers all time since Christ....
some understand that while there has been tribulation since then, that the final week or final hour (of temptation) is coming in the future...I truly do not understand how the preterists think that it is fulfilled...
well, there has to be a correct understanding...and I do not think that God wants us to say "any of them could be correct" but I certainly applaud your acknowledgement that your is JUST one of many possible ways to understand that time frame...
well, the post tribbers here would disagree...I was pre trib at one time, but study and prayer lead my being happily post trib...pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams, while post trib is prophesied of many multiple times.
Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse, disguised as an angel of light, with a flood of lies hat fools the world....into worshiping him as God...
he is coming to play church and convert you....by lies....claiming to be Jesus come back....
and sinse Satan comes first, and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah, then there is a problem if there is no pre trib......agree? the first one to come, pretrends top be Jesus and fools the world...including the Christians...all but the elect Christian witnesses.
that happens far too often, on all sides...but we know that there are tares planted among the wheat...and Satan does a lot of his work from the pulpit....even right here.....there is evil doctrine out there/here...IMO< pre trib and tongues are the most prevelant evils...
unfortunately for pre tribbers, if post trib is right then the pre tribbers are in for a big suprise because they have been conditioned to believe the first one claiming to be Jesus is Messiah...because it will be Satan pretending to be Christ, and that means that they would be fooled and because of their love of Christ, and because they think he is Jesus, they would worshiping him as God returned, thus taking the mark....Christ the Rock would be their stumbling block....as we know He shall be for some...
I do not think that they understand the scriptures as well, because any wrong interpretation is brought from Satan or man's traditions...either way..wrong is wrong....
sometimes it is evil....sometimes it is men being human and foulable
but we can all learn from each other....in some ways...
what if orthodox is incorrect? not saying that it is by the way...
I have boat loads of disrespect for that position....to which I held at one time.....but not for those who hold to it, only for the theory itself...
I would ask Biblewriter, do the dead believers get raised at the pre trib rapture, the 2nd Coming or both? (not including the rest of the dead of Rev20)
lol, it happens all the time....try 1/2 a dozen of the same.......at a time....it happens.
main topic here....when is the Gathering to Christ?...pre of post trib....
and lately there has been a lot of partial preterism here....
in His service
c
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heavensblade23
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I'd like to point out that as a non-Christian I get a pretty good kick out of watching you all call each others views mislead or even outright Satanic. Seeing as how you can't even establish among yourselves what constitutes one of the most important doctrines in Christianity, how is an outsider supposed to take you seriously?
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yes it's hard to beleive some when they post outright lies.
zeke37
pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams,
Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse,
No he is being thrown down, zap, thud, where am I.
revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
and sinse Satan comes first,
Not Bibical.
and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah,
there is only one Jesus Messiah, he comes to take the bride to Him in the clouds.
Then satan is cast down, he dosn't come on a white horse and he dosn't come as lightning shines from the east to the west as jesus does..
he is cast down like lightning, zap, thud, where am i.
Oh now I know I'm on earth, there is z watching for me.
unfortunately for pre tribbers, if post trib is right then the pre tribbers are in for a big suprise because they have been conditioned to believe the first one claiming to be Jesus is Messiah...because it will be Satan pretending to be Christ, and that means that they would be fooled and because of their love of Christ, and because they think he is Jesus, they would worshiping him as God returned, thus taking the mark....Christ the Rock would be their stumbling block....as we know He shall be for some...
That is obviously from a person that dosn't know Jesus, who thinks a serious Christian could be fooled into thinking satan is Christ.
Need to get serious z and come to know Him.
zeke37
pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams,
Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse,
No he is being thrown down, zap, thud, where am I.
revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
and sinse Satan comes first,
Not Bibical.
and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah,
there is only one Jesus Messiah, he comes to take the bride to Him in the clouds.
Then satan is cast down, he dosn't come on a white horse and he dosn't come as lightning shines from the east to the west as jesus does..
he is cast down like lightning, zap, thud, where am i.
Oh now I know I'm on earth, there is z watching for me.
unfortunately for pre tribbers, if post trib is right then the pre tribbers are in for a big suprise because they have been conditioned to believe the first one claiming to be Jesus is Messiah...because it will be Satan pretending to be Christ, and that means that they would be fooled and because of their love of Christ, and because they think he is Jesus, they would worshiping him as God returned, thus taking the mark....Christ the Rock would be their stumbling block....as we know He shall be for some...
That is obviously from a person that dosn't know Jesus, who thinks a serious Christian could be fooled into thinking satan is Christ.
Need to get serious z and come to know Him.
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??? What? Nobody said anything like that. Who called anything satanic?
No offense, but that is ignorant and hypocritical. First, It's not one of the most important doctrines when the tribulation will happen or if there will be a millennium or not. How did you decide that. Second, whenever there is anything to be understood people understand it differently. Take evolution, how can somebody take evolution seriously when they can't even agree how it happened? Was it gradualism or punctuated equilibrium? Or did it have assistants from aliens as some claim? Or maybe God did it as some say? Or maybe it was a result of monkeys having sex with aliens as some claim? And how long did it take? 4.5 Billion years? 65 Million years? Or maybe Hoyle was right when he proved it would take over 1 and a quarter trillion years? And where did the universe come from in evolution? Big Bang? Theism? Deism? Aliens? Gasses? Energy? Evolutionists look at selected science (That which they want to see and ignore the rest) and a Christian looks at The Bible. If your a Christian you agree on the major things and sometimes disagree on the minor. If your an evolutionist you look at the pick and choose science and never agree on anything. How can anyone take evolution seriously? And before you point to the cults and say "look, you can't decide", anyone can misinterpret The Bible to say anything the same way they can do it to science. You have committed the "Adherents determine truth" fallacy.
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zeke37
IMO...
yes it's hard to beleive some when they post outright lies.
is that an indirect accusation against me garry2?
zeke37
pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams,
Satan is coming, looking like a lamb, on a white horse,
No he is being thrown down, zap, thud, where am I.
revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
and what? he sees that he is cast to earth...you are the only one that I have ever conversed with that thinks he won't know where he is for a time....but you have that right to believe that if you wish...
and sinse Satan comes first,
Not Bibical.
sure it is, you just don't accept that part of the Truth....call it unbiblical all you want to...silliness
and pre trib believes that the first Jesus to come is Messiah,
there is only one Jesus Messiah,
I know...but WILL you?....many will not know the difference between Messiah and Satan when Satan comes pretending to be Messiah..., before the Gathering.
he comes to take the bride to Him in the clouds.
the clouds is a mass multitude of returning believers....as it is with other Pauline books/apistles...Heb1
Then satan is cast down,
no, the order you currently understand is incorrect...see 2Thes2...the man of sin (Satan) is here first as the son of Perdition, and then after that time, then the real Messiah Arives and then the Gathering to Christ....
he dosn't come on a white horse
sure he does...see Rev6:2, the fake....bow=toxon...not a weapon, but aura/glory...rainbow appearance.....
and he dosn't come as lightning shines from the east to the west as jesus does..
Christ said he comes as lightning falling from heaven....
he is cast down like lightning, zap, thud, where am i.
the where am I part is not remotely biblical IMO...Is that you theory alone or did someone teach you that?
Oh now I know I'm on earth, there is z watching for me.
I shall indeed be watching for him, cause he has to come BEFORE Messiah does, and fool the world...I certainly would not want him to come into my house and break it up....while the Master is away....hmmm. We all should be on the watch for the enemy...but some don't think that they will even be here to face him...silliness...
unfortunately for pre tribbers, if post trib is right then the pre tribbers are in for a big suprise because they have been conditioned to believe the first one claiming to be Jesus is Messiah...because it will be Satan pretending to be Christ, and that means that they would be fooled and because of their love of Christ, and because they think he is Jesus, they would worshiping him as God returned, thus taking the mark....Christ the Rock would be their stumbling block....as we know He shall be for some...
That is obviously from a person that dosn't know Jesus,
says you, mr. judge...lol....you really ought to work on that garry2....we are warned not to do that....judge others...we really should leave that to God.
who thinks a serious Christian could be fooled into thinking satan is Christ.
anyone that believes that Jesus comes here first before Satan does.....as you currently do. a Christian even if he/she believes in Messiah, and longs for His return....can still be fooled....
only the elect have the victory in the final hour. There is no pre trib rapture. It is after that time, post trib
Need to get serious z and come to know Him.
more of your wonderful Christian decorum....that love again, eh? You are such a sweetheart....not...saying that I do not know Him...judgemental again....never stops with you.
almost anyone that converses here with you, will tell you the same thing garry2....you are just plain out nasty...
have at it....you planted your seeds... I have planted the ones that I planted...we shall see which God grows...
I don't think we should converse anymore, for obvious reasons...you insult people on a personal level...constantly.....you just don't stop...you don't seem to think that you are doing anything wrong....
any truth that I have to share with you probably will not be accepted...because of you personal feelings...so we might as well just stop, right...
perhaps you can go find some one else to cyberbully....to judge....to insult....
'cause if non-Christians are getting a negative message from 2 supposed Christians, then there is something wrong there...
so just move on...please in Jesus' name.
c
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zeke37
pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams,
satan inspired movies deplicting Jesus as weak and homosexual etc. to cause opposition to the truth and to cause many to be lost, if he can.
In the same manner he - satan inspired fantasyful movies and books on the pre tribulation rapture to cause the truth not to be beleived and for people to be able to accuse the pre t r came from movies etc. causing many to miss out and go through the worst times that the earth has ever seen, so that during this time he will have a better chance of deceiving people and causing them to miss out on everlasting life with God.
he - satan has helpers , many in fact, there is at least two in this forum who feroicously and mockingly attack the pre t r.
Who is the entity that is feroicous and mocking.
So you can know them by their fruits.
pre trib is pure speculation and wishful thinking and hollywood and dreams,
satan inspired movies deplicting Jesus as weak and homosexual etc. to cause opposition to the truth and to cause many to be lost, if he can.
In the same manner he - satan inspired fantasyful movies and books on the pre tribulation rapture to cause the truth not to be beleived and for people to be able to accuse the pre t r came from movies etc. causing many to miss out and go through the worst times that the earth has ever seen, so that during this time he will have a better chance of deceiving people and causing them to miss out on everlasting life with God.
he - satan has helpers , many in fact, there is at least two in this forum who feroicously and mockingly attack the pre t r.
Who is the entity that is feroicous and mocking.
So you can know them by their fruits.
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zeke37
IMO...
actually, I think that the pre trib rapture doctrine is Satanic....not those who follow it...but the doctrine itself...
And I have been called Satanic by garry2 before(as above)...because I am against the pre trib lie...no skin off my back. Garry likes to judge people by his standards...and thus he disreguards the Biblical instruction against that practice. but enough about him. he is occupied with the pre trib lie...keeps him busy for now....blinded to the truth, possibly even by God as 2Thes2 states.
No offense, but that is ignorant and hypocritical. First, It's not one of the most important doctrines when the tribulation will happen or if there will be a millennium or not.
How did you decide that.
To me, it is very important. I fell for the pre trib lie at first...and boy am I ever glad I am not in that babyl anymore...pre trib is "unpreparation"..opposite of what we should be doing...so I think it is central....
why do you think that it is not? If one believes that Satan is Jesus...that is a big deal.
Second, whenever there is anything to be understood people understand it differently. Take evolution, how can somebody take evolution seriously when they can't even agree how it happened? Was it gradualism or punctuated equilibrium? Or did it have assistants from aliens as some claim? Or maybe God did it as some say? Or maybe it was a result of monkeys having sex with aliens as some claim? And how long did it take? 4.5 Billion years? 65 Million years? Or maybe Hoyle was right when he proved it would take over 1 and a quarter trillion years?
simply, if evolution was true, we would have a continuing sourse of skelital remains that show all the stages from ape to man...and from fish to ape...or what ever...the landscape would be full of semi-humanoid beings, forever changing...and we have dug up animals from 100's of millions of years ago....but have not seen that.
for evolution to be true...it has to be ongoing, and last time I looked, a dog is a dog...even the remains of dogs 1000's of years old are still dogs...
the landscape would be covered with proof....if it were true....and it just is not
And where did the universe come from in evolution? Big Bang? Theism? Deism? Aliens? Gasses? Energy? Evolutionists look at selected science (That which they want to see and ignore the rest) and a Christian looks at The Bible. If your a Christian you agree on the major things and sometimes disagree on the minor.
more like..we agree on the milk, and disagree on the meat...milk is wonderful, but is sours after a while...the meat sustains...unless it is unclean meat....which much/most doctrine is now a days...
If your an evolutionist you look at the pick and choose science and never agree on anything. How can anyone take evolution seriously? And before you point to the cults and say "look, you can't decide", anyone can misinterpret The Bible to say anything the same way they can do it to science. You have committed the "Adherents determine truth" fallacy.[/quote]
but he has a point....the arguments that ocure here may do more harm than good to an observer...if you are presented with 100 points of view, how does one know which path is possibly for them?
speaking of evolution etc....it is pretty hard to convince any educated person that the earth is only app. 6000 years old...it simply is not...if one believes that the earth is only 6000 years old, this most times negate any message that we could give to a non believer...because they would never take Christianity or the Word seriously....with eroneous mistakes like that.
Since Adam and Eve, there may have been app. 6000 years...but certainly the earth has been around for billions of years longer than that...man did not evolve...but the earth is billions of years old....that time is called "before the foundations of the world" (in the NT...katabole)
intelligently dividing the Word properly.....is vital.
...
in His service
c
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z, you said that christians can be fooled into thinking that satan is Jesus, and I beleive that you and other christians can be, not just because you admit it but because I know I possibly could not be, and that is why I consider myself a serious Christian and you lukewarm.
I mean someone who rejects much of what is written in the Bible could not be serious, but following some mans teachings.
I mean someone who rejects much of what is written in the Bible could not be serious, but following some mans teachings.
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Absosultely correrect and thats probably why theres a falling away.
Christ taught self last but today its self first.
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