empowered expression or objectification?

[mkgal1]

Somehow, I have trouble seeing Dr. Maya Angelou twerking (or anything else "human" like wearing a 99% sheer dress on the red carpet or sexing her way to management - and this is not just sleeping with them; it's about wearing stilettos and a miniskirt business suit to the office every day rather than a business suit like a man's).

My point was about the "changing of the rules" in culture---or more directly (as it relates to the OP) trying to live with issues that some may consider confusing.

Besides.....this part of my post was meant to go along with what you quoted. It wasn't a "stand alone" comment.

From the very beginning, we've had Cains....and we've had Abels. When external rules or social acceptance changes....that only changes the outward appearance of things.

 

[Hetta]

I'm just curious whether you know the whole of Maya Angelou's life, VG? She had a child outside of wedlock herself.

 

[mkgal1]

It all affects men - some very negatively, and no one admits or takes responsibility for that. It is confusing to women, who know what they believe individually, but associate with some groups...but each person individually makes it even more confusing for men because there is no general standard or guideline by which they can gauge what to expect or how to "be" a man in today's world.

This keeps getting mentioned in conversations like this. Why should anyone else apologize for the actions of others? Most likely....the ones that *do* have the radical feminist attitude of wishing to turn the tables and use their traits *against* men see nothing wrong with it---so don't expect an apology from them. That's most likely why there's no apologies.

but each person individually makes it even more confusing for men because there is no general standard or guideline by which they can gauge what to expect or how to "be" a man in today's world

I'm kind of confused by this. There are general standards (even laws, thankfully) in which men can know how to properly gauge themselves.

 

[seeingeyes]

I've been saying this for a long time (I get egged for it nearly every time, too). That's only one part of the equation, though. It all affects men - some very negatively, and no one admits or takes responsibility for that. It is confusing to women, who know what they believe individually, but associate with some groups...but each person individually makes it even more confusing for men because there is no general standard or guideline by which they can gauge what to expect or how to "be" a man in today's world.

I'm not fond of the idea that men are helpless victims in the face of some allegedly "empowered" female who decides to shake her money maker. The idea that men are as weak as mewling kittens is as absurd as the idea that women are irrational hormone-bags.

It's not Miley Cyrus's job to teach my boys to be men. (Thank God!) No apologies necessary. (Though it would be nice if she could be empowered to keep her tongue in her face, she's got that llama thing going on.)

 

[Hetta]

I'm not fond of the idea that men are helpless victims in the face of some allegedly "empowered" female who decides to shake her money maker. The idea that men are as weak as mewling kittens is as absurd as the idea that women are irrational hormone-bags.

Thank you. This meme of the helpless, drooling male that I see repeated ad infinitum on my computer screen makes me want to scream. I'm surprised that more men aren't loudly proclaiming themselves to be several steps better evolved than that.

It's not Miley Cyrus's job to teach my boys to be men. (Thank God!) No apologies necessary. (Though it would be nice if she could be empowered to keep her tongue in her face, she's got that llama thing going on.)

OMW. The idea of MC teaching my boys anything about women. :O And yes on the tongue. Put. It. Away.

 

[mkgal1]

The idea that men are as weak as mewling kittens is as absurd as the idea that women are irrational hormone-bags.

It's not Miley Cyrus's job to teach my boys to be men. (Thank God!) No apologies necessary. (Though it would be nice if she could be empowered to keep her tongue in her face, she's got that llama thing going on.)

Yes....thank God that's *not* her job. Yikes.

I agree that'd be nice if she put a stop to that tongue thing....but, please, don't call it a llama thing (llama's are cute and innocent. Don't drag them into this ).

 

[mkgal1]

By the way...I can certainly be wrong, but I'm of the opinion that just as in the Garden of Eden....we always have two choices before us.

 

[seeingeyes]

I agree that'd be nice if she put a stop to that tongue thing....but, please, don't call it a llama thing (llama's are cute and innocent. Don't drag them into this ).

I googled "Llama tongue" images and this was on there:

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I googled "Llama tongue" images and this was on there:

ROFL!!!

Can't link it. Goes to profanity. But google and you'll find articles about Miley Cyrus explaining to Barbara Walters that she is shy and feels awkward when being photographed, and sticks her tongue out as a nervous tic.

She grew up on camera. Her daddy was a country music star before she became famous herself. And she's uncomfortable with pictures?

 

[mkgal1]

This post is for the purpose of cleansing our minds (after the previous posts):

Feeding Time - With Help From Rambo - YouTube

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I'm just curious whether you know the whole of Maya Angelou's life, VG? She had a child outside of wedlock herself.

The point was made the when cultures change, the only change is outward - that human nature stays the same regardless ("there will be Cain's and there will be Abel's"). A quote was made from Maya Angelou that suggested that she identified with human nature and human values with all their shortcomings (which I don't argue with). Is it your suggestion that she would have identified with what some today consider acceptable and would have called it acceptable herself?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

By the way...I can certainly be wrong, but I'm of the opinion that just as in the Garden of Eden....we always have two choices before us.

Didn't that end in the garden? Are you suggesting that it is in our nature to choose between sin and righteousness?

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm just curious whether you know the whole of Maya Angelou's life, VG? She had a child outside of wedlock herself.

We all have stuff we can identify with as being humans in a fallen world. It doesn't excuse making social standards worse by the generation.

This keeps getting mentioned in conversations like this. Why should anyone else apologize for the actions of others? Most likely....the ones that *do* have the radical feminist attitude of wishing to turn the tables and use their traits *against* men see nothing wrong with it---so don't expect an apology from them. That's most likely why there's no apologies.

If we identify as feminists, we are guilty by the association with a movement that harms men. I am one, I am not ashamed to admit it, and I am not proud to say I have contributed to it. And not to excuse it, but we are all party to social sins. We should own up to our part in it.

I'm kind of confused by this. There are general standards (even laws, thankfully) in which men can know how to properly gauge themselves.

Men typically gauge themselves as men by other men. Women do it too. I gauge myself as to how feminine I am by other women - I'm not a butch-type masculine, but I am not always wearing pink dresses with lace and frills, sequined shoes and an face so full of makeup you don't know what I look like. This is normal, and it is one way we categorize other people in order to better understand ourselves. We also might gauge ourselves against the opposite sex. If men want feminine women, there are women who deliberately seek to become more feminine in order to attract a man. Likewise with men, they may deliberately gauge themselves by what women want....but women have this feminist movement that makes it very difficult to measure because there are so many different camps.

An individualistic culture is very complicated compared to a community type of culture. The west is individualizing more and more all the time, complicating everything more and more - including marriage and how to choose a spouse.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Didn't that end in the garden? Are you suggesting that it is in our nature to choose between sin and righteousness?

I was going to reply, "Isn't it? "

But then I realized, as I understand it, we're all born with a sin nature, and we are no longer able to choose. We sin by default.

 

[mkgal1]

Didn't that end in the garden?

I don't believe so (that that ended in the garden). Maybe we *aren't* physically in the garden any longer....but,
doesn't the Bible say..."there is no temptation that's seized you that isn't common for people. But God is faithful. He won’t allow you to be tempted beyond your abilities. Instead, with the temptation, God will also supply a way out so that you will be able to endure it."

Didn't Joseph demonstrate that, when he was grabbed by Potiphar's wife?

Are you suggesting that it is in our nature to choose between sin and righteousness?

I haven't actually come to a conclusion on that right now.

I do think a part of righteousness (meaning..."sense of right"...not actually holiness) may be inherent (and I realize that's another opinion I have that goes against the grain). I think that's what testifies to the truth. Babies have a sense of justice---they don't gravitate towards what they consider mean (but that's all getting off into another rabbit trail).

Do you think the only people that do the "right thing" are professed Christians? And the reverse----do you think that professed Christians do "the right thing"?

 

[mkgal1]

I was going to reply, "Isn't it? "

But then I realized, as I understand it, we're all born with a sin nature, and we are no longer able to choose. We sin by default.

That may be a whole new thread.

 

[mkgal1]

I was going to reply, "Isn't it? "

But then I realized, as I understand it, we're all born with a sin nature, and we are no longer able to choose. We sin by default.

Maybe that's a denominational difference between us....I'm not sure.....but I don't believe that. If we are no longer able to choose---how do we choose Christ?

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Maybe that's a denominational difference between us....I'm not sure.....but I don't believe that. If we are no longer able to choose---how do we choose Christ?

Well, He saves us FROM the sin, but we can't choose to have been born in that sin in the first place. At least that's the way I understand things. It's OK if others don't see it the same way.

 

[mkgal1]

We all have stuff we can identify with as being humans in a fallen world. It doesn't excuse making social standards worse by the generation.

Well....personally, I don't consider myself that powerful---to "make social standards worse". I'm responsible for my own standards---not the whole of our culture.

That wasn't really even along my line of thought when I mentioned Dr Angelou's words.

If we identify as feminists, we are guilty by the association with a movement that harms men. I am one, I am not ashamed to admit it, and I am not proud to say I have contributed to it. And not to excuse it, but we are all party to social sins. We should own up to our part in it.

I don't have a label for myself (beyond saying I'm Christian....married....mother.....sister.....friend).

If someone calls me out on some way that I'm specifically a party to a social sin....then I will own up to it (if it's true), otherwise, I don't feel inclined to apologize. I've lived too many years practically apologizing for taking up space on this earth---I'm not going back to that---thankyouverymuch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzL-vdQ3ObA

Men typically gauge themselves as men by other men. Women do it too. I gauge myself as to how feminine I am by other women - I'm not a butch-type masculine, but I am not always wearing pink dresses with lace and frills, sequined shoes and an face so full of makeup you don't know what I look like. This is normal, and it is one way we categorize other people in order to better understand ourselves. We also might gauge ourselves against the opposite sex. If men want feminine women, there are women who deliberately seek to become more feminine in order to attract a man. Likewise with men, they may deliberately gauge themselves by what women want....but women have this feminist movement that makes it very difficult to measure because there are so many different camps.

An individualistic culture is very complicated compared to a community type of culture. The west is individualizing more and more all the time, complicating everything more and more - including marriage and how to choose a spouse.

Well.....I think it's best for people to get to know what they like (as an individual)...instead of morphing into what others would like. No one can take that away from us ---but, they can change the standards, if we seek their approval.

 

[ValleyGal]

Sorry, MK, but this is how society and social construction works.....unless you want to be isolated and not part of any kind of community with no sense of belonging, etc.