Empathy

[2PhiloVoid]

I would never read Dune that way, or Beowulf at all. I've read Dune a few times and did so for pleasure. I have no interest in "literary" or "critical? analysis. I worked hard to minimize my contact with literary analysis in college and that was a long time ago.

I can very well understand the desire to merely read a work of literature for pure, personal pleasure. However, occasionally, some authors actually intend to imply various types, motifs or other semiotic ideas within the body of their work, and if we 'miss' those devices and homages, we might be missing some deeper aspect of their intention for having written that work in the 1st place. This essential hermeneutical principle---one which our public high school teachers tried to drill into us---has a role to play when reading various portions of the Biblical literature, and each of the Gospels is a point in case. Each writer had a different audience and overall literary goal to express in attempting to convey their common appraisal that "Jesus is the Messiah."

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dune. But I'm sure Herbert was making a few insinuated homages along the way, for both positive and negative meaning, even if he wasn't really expressing sentiments for Judaism, Christianity or Islam in doing so.

Sounds more like he was challenging Paul's theology as too dismissive of tradition.

Nope. Not at all. Matthew was accentuating the typological role that Jesus had in "fulfilling" the Law and the Prophets. In fact, he mentions multiple occasions of Jesus' "fulfillment" more than any of the other Gospel writers. And, of course, many folks who read Matthew miss this point altogether and then move straight on ahead in pitting Matthew's writing straight up and against Paul, which to my interpretive position as both a hermeneutically and historically minded person, is an gross literary and theological error.

I might consider reading it...

Ok. Here. I'll help you out a little so you know what to look for in comparison..................

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: fulfill

www.biblegateway.com

Is this what happens when you do "literary analysis"? It has the structural strength of a hill of beans.

Very funny, Hans. No, if you study Hermeneutics (or in this case, part of which is Literary Analysis), I think any intelligent person will see that the coherency of the given narrative comes together more firmly. Whether or not the overall narrative becomes believable when taken as a whole is between you and God.

I still haven't figured out if the "abominatino" is a person or an event or what.

It's an "event," but a fairly long term event. Here, I know you hate videos, but here's one that represents the short form of the historical sources that I draw upon and by which I begin to evaluate and value the 'meaning' of the Abomination of Desolation, particularly where it invokes The Synoptic Gospels, The Arch of Titus and the historical destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd Temple, all interlaced as historical and theological evidences which can then be eased into a theological connection with Paul's writing (and the book of Hebrews, which may have been written by Paul):

(What? Did he just say "empathize" in that video? ................Goodness gracious!)

Reminder: I don't offer sources as 'end point' arguments. They're simply meant to be a beginning point for further study. I have to make this clear since I keep running into folks who tell me point blank, "That's not convincing!!!" To which I say in academic form, it's not supposed to be, any more than jumping on a springboard all by itself is the actual act of diving into a pool.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus' teachings, and what he embodies in the Gospel narratives, about what fulfilling Torah means, are actually closer in some ways to some Hasidic Jewish ideas- devekut as orientation towards God over strict externalities, Torah as encounter with Hokmah, divine Wisdom, analogous to Logos. Not as instrumental rationality, but living, relational pattern. They don't fit neatly with exoteric religion focused on social order and clear boundaries, which is why certain forms of Catholicism might struggle to understand what "fulfilling the Law" means. It's not a strictly forensic accounting of rule-keeping.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It's an "event," but a fairly long term event.

Oh Kay, then. I guess Matt needs better translators or something.

Here, I know you hate videos,

I don't hate videos. I was literally had to pause on I was listening to in the background to start this one.

but here's one that represents the short form of the historical sources that I draw upon

Perhaps it does get there, but the insufferable preacher-bro thing was too much to take.

and by which I begin to evaluate and value the 'meaning' of the Abomination of Desolation, particularly where it invokes The Synoptic Gospels, The Arch of Titus and the historical destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd Temple, all interlaced as historical and theological evidences which can then be eased into a theological connection with Paul's writing (and the book of Hebrews, which may have been written by Paul):

I don't care what is in "Hebrews". We are discussing "Matthew". I also don't care what is in the other gospels other than how Matthew differs from Mark.

This video is unavailable. (What? Did he just say "empathize" in that video? ................Goodness gracious!)

It played just fine. It was clearly designed to be shared with your "bros" from bible study. That was never me. If it is some sort of history at the end, a framing like an actual documentary airing on PBS or basic cable (History, Disco, etc.). The Jesus signs the the garage is *way* too much. A preacher or religious teacher should stay in whatever place they are stored until it is time for church or RE.

I've got other things to do, so I will likely come back to the rest of this tonight.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh Kay, then. I guess Matt needs better translators or something.

Yes, something.

I don't hate videos. I was literally had to pause on I was listening to in the background to start this one.

My apologies for the inconvenience.

Perhaps it does get there, but the insufferable preacher-bro thing was too much to take.

Sure, the presentation of "preacher-bro's" content is a little cheesy, but that doesn't undercut whatever coherent veracity there may be present (or 'is present' in my view) in that historical and theological content.

I don't care what is in "Hebrews". We are discussing "Matthew". I also don't care what is in the other gospels other than how Matthew differs from Mark.

Well, you should care if you're going to handle interpreting and valuing the potential evidence for Christianity that is available, because where doing the work of the historian is concerned, some things, whether they're narratives, artifacts or testimonies, do tie together and that's one of the things we're looking for in our Abductive approach to the Bible. While I can engage critical study of the Bible fairly well myself, I'm not going to simply hand over the reigns to folks like Bart Ehrman simply because he has a voluminous reputation as a skeptical scholar of the Bible.

As for Matthew specifically, as can be seen from the list I posted in my previous post, Matthew apparently may not have been happy with how little Mark demonstrated any "fulfillment" that Jesus' ministry represents, all of which in turn affects the extent to which we understand the meaning of "every jot and tittle of the Law" and the end thereof that Matthew cites in his own Gospel. But despite what a large number of people attempt to proffer otherwise, there's little reason to think that Matthew on the whole was flat out contradicting Paul, or anyone else in the New Testament.

And of course, all of these considerations become complicated and even convoluted at times, but that's just the price of trying to approach the past through our modern disciplines of Historiography and Hermeneutics.

It played just fine. It was clearly designed to be shared with your "bros" from bible study. That was never me. If it is some sort of history at the end, a framing like an actual documentary airing on PBS or basic cable (History, Disco, etc.). The Jesus signs the the garage is *way* too much. A preacher or religious teacher should stay in whatever place they are stored until it is time for church or RE.

It doesn't matter if it was 'designed for the 'bros'. .... if he's right on some things, then he's right. And I think he is, even if obviously much more could be said.

I've got other things to do, so I will likely come back to the rest of this tonight.

That's fair. At your leisure, and only if you want to. I'm just trying to be academically helpful.

At the end of the day, it's still all about Empathy and Truth-----Jesus' Empathy and Truth.