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"Embedded Age" Requires Fake Fossils

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James Is Back

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Thread has undergone a cleanup for flaming/goading and off topic violations so if your post is gone that is the reason. First you guys need to stop the back and forth flaming/goading. Address the post not the poster and second stick to the topic at hand.

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Paul of Eugene OR

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That's very interesting... the "logical conclusion" you say. Please lay out the premises and line of reasoning that lead to that logical conclusion.

We have a nested hierarchy that is best explained by common descent in the various kingdoms. We have the relationship between the various kingdoms that includes common coding for DNA to Protein, which could be a different coding. We have the establishment of speciation by such evidences as shared retroviral inserts and vestiges as well as the nested hierarchy. The denial of common descent across all kingdoms of life is normally done by people who completely deny those pieces of evidence as well, so their denial is not reasonable to weigh as being something to consider. So the common descent of all life is quite probable, probable enough to place it in the catagory of being the logical conclusion. The only other reasonable conclusion would be life started some small number of times other than one and evolved to what we see today . . . and that seems unlikely due to the common DNA coding, as I said above.
 
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Zosimus

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We have a nested hierarchy that is best explained by common descent in the various kingdoms. We have the relationship between the various kingdoms that includes common coding for DNA to Protein, which could be a different coding. We have the establishment of speciation by such evidences as shared retroviral inserts and vestiges as well as the nested hierarchy. The denial of common descent across all kingdoms of life is normally done by people who completely deny those pieces of evidence as well, so their denial is not reasonable to weigh as being something to consider. So the common descent of all life is quite probable, probable enough to place it in the catagory of being the logical conclusion. The only other reasonable conclusion would be life started some small number of times other than one and evolved to what we see today . . . and that seems unlikely due to the common DNA coding, as I said above.
While that certainly is an argument it is not a LOGICAL one. It's far more of an EMPIRICAL argument based on some kind of abductive reasoning. Abductive reasoning, as you know, is a form of reasoning in which the truth of all of the inputs does not guarantee the conclusion. If, for example, you were a spirit that went around the Earth looking at rocks, minerals, dirt, water, etc., and suddenly happened upon a living creature you might feel that this is an unusual thing that requires some sort of an explanation.

Therefore, for your abductive reasoning to work, you need to establish not only that a nested hierarchy exists, but also that this is strange and thus in need of an explanation, and then indicate that common descent is the best explanation. Since other nested hierarchies exist (such as the military) that are not the result of common descent, or even the result of careful planning, I tend to disagree that nested hierarchies need explanation.

Second, you referred to speciation. Yet I wonder whether the exact definition of species is known, testable, and universally agreed upon. A simple definition of species (a group of creatures that can freely interbreed) immediately runs into a number of logical and practical problems. Many groups of animals that are nominally considered different species routinely interbreed (hybridization). In some cases the offspring are sterile, whereas in others they are not. The species definition also seems to exclude bacteria, as they don't interbreed among one another. Additionally there is the practical problem of looking at a Neanderthal fossil and that of a newly discovered fossil that may or may not be a Neanderthal. How can you determine whether the creatures were able to interbreed? Finally some species contain members that cannot interbreed (chihuahuas and St. Bernards) yet are classified as the same species.

Therefore, I generally reject the idea that speciation refers to any objectively knowable division and denied that supposed "speciation" events have any relevance.
 
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Loudmouth

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Therefore, for your abductive reasoning to work, you need to establish not only that a nested hierarchy exists, but also that this is strange and thus in need of an explanation, and then indicate that common descent is the best explanation.

If you look at the rest of nature, there are no nested hierarchies. Planets don't form a nested hierarchy. Stars don't form a nested hierarchy. Elements don't form a nested hierarchy. Things designed by humans do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Only life does.

Since other nested hierarchies exist (such as the military)

They don't. When you look at the features of each group (e.g. the equipment they use) the hierarchy breaks down.

Also, such things as paintings, cars, and buildings do not fall into a nested hierarchy.

Second, you referred to speciation. Yet I wonder whether the exact definition of species is known, testable, and universally agreed upon.

Why would we need an exact definition?

A simple definition of species (a group of creatures that can freely interbreed) immediately runs into a number of logical and practical problems. Many groups of animals that are nominally considered different species routinely interbreed (hybridization). In some cases the offspring are sterile, whereas in others they are not. The species definition also seems to exclude bacteria, as they don't interbreed among one another.

How is this a problem? Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it state that speciation must a quantum event where there is complete interbreeding in one generation and complete lack of interbreeding the next generation.

Additionally there is the practical problem of looking at a Neanderthal fossil and that of a newly discovered fossil that may or may not be a Neanderthal.

Why is this a problem? We can determine if a fossil falls within the physical variation of other fossil groups or living species.

How can you determine whether the creatures were able to interbreed?

You can't. What you can do is use multivariate techniques to see if there are statistically supportable morphological groups. Why is this a problem?

Finally some species contain members that cannot interbreed (chihuahuas and St. Bernards) yet are classified as the same species.

That is considered a ring species and a process that leads to speciation.

Therefore, I generally reject the idea that speciation refers to any objectively knowable division and denied that supposed "speciation" events have any relevance.

How is it not relevant? Even when there is limited interbreeding, you still have the accumulation of population specific mutations which produces divergence. For example, there is no way that mutations in a wild group of wolves is going to make it into a breeding population of Chihuahuas. The mechanism is there for divergence between populations, so that would be very relevant to the process of evolution. You seem to be stuck on semantics instead of looking at the actual natural processes.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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While that certainly is an argument it is not a LOGICAL one. It's far more of an EMPIRICAL argument based on some kind of abductive reasoning. Abductive reasoning, as you know, is a form of reasoning in which the truth of all of the inputs does not guarantee the conclusion. If, for example, you were a spirit that went around the Earth looking at rocks, minerals, dirt, water, etc., and suddenly happened upon a living creature you might feel that this is an unusual thing that requires some sort of an explanation.

Uh . . . where you wrote "abductive" I think you meant "inductive".

Therefore, for your abductive reasoning to work, you need to establish not only that a nested hierarchy exists, but also that this is strange and thus in need of an explanation, and then indicate that common descent is the best explanation. Since other nested hierarchies exist (such as the military) that are not the result of common descent, or even the result of careful planning, I tend to disagree that nested hierarchies need explanation.

It is strange, it is in need of an explanation, and common descent is the best explanation.

a) It is strange. You will not see nested hierarchies in normal designed objects, such as cars, or rocks, or planets; only in things that have common descent, such as errors in copying scripture that form natural families of documents.

b) It is therefore in need of explanation. Why are we able to construct a great tree of life marked by distinguishing characteristics?

c) common descent is the best explanation. Why are there vestiges, if not for common descent?

Second, you referred to speciation. Yet I wonder whether the exact definition of species is known, testable, and universally agreed upon. A simple definition of species (a group of creatures that can freely interbreed) immediately runs into a number of logical and practical problems. . . .

Since speciation takes hundreds of generations, and is a gradual process, it is therefore predicted there will be cases where speciation is difficult to define. That is what you point out is observed, and is therefore further evidence FOR evolution, not AGAINST evolution. I always marvel at creationists who post this evidence against their own position and cite it as if it were for their side.
 
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Zosimus

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If you look at the rest of nature, there are no nested hierarchies. Planets don't form a nested hierarchy. Stars don't form a nested hierarchy. Elements don't form a nested hierarchy. Things designed by humans do not fall into a nested hierarchy. Only life does.
http://www.isss.org/hierarchy.htm

"...nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. "
 
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Zosimus

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Uh . . . where you wrote "abductive" I think you meant "inductive".
No, I wrote abductive and meant abductive.

Abductive reasoning (also called abduction, abductive inference or retroduction) is a form of logical inference that goes from an observation to a hypothesis that accounts for the observation, ideally seeking to find the simplest and most likely explanation.

It is strange, it is in need of an explanation, and common descent is the best explanation.
Speculation.

a) It is strange. You will not see nested hierarchies in normal designed objects, such as cars, or rocks, or planets; only in things that have common descent, such as errors in copying scripture that form natural families of documents.
An army is not created by common descent. An army is an example of a nested hierarchy.

b) It is therefore in need of explanation. Why are we able to construct a great tree of life marked by distinguishing characteristics?
Because people are able to organize things into groups.

c) common descent is the best explanation. Why are there vestiges, if not for common descent?
Vestiges. So "A" exists, you don't know why "A" exists or what it does, so you assume that it has no function and this is supposedly evidence of something?

Since speciation takes hundreds of generations, and is a gradual process, it is therefore predicted there will be cases where speciation is difficult to define. That is what you point out is observed, and is therefore further evidence FOR evolution, not AGAINST evolution. I always marvel at creationists who post this evidence against their own position and cite it as if it were for their side.
Actually the lack of a good definition for speciation makes it impossible to determine whether macro-evolution has ever occurred. I always marvel at Zen Buddhists who post this evidence against their own position and cite it as though it were for their side.
 
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Loudmouth

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http://www.isss.org/hierarchy.htm

"...nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. "

Show how the equipment used in each unit falls into a phylogeny.
 
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Zosimus

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crjmurray

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http://www.isss.org/hierarchy.htm

"...nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. "

I'm sorry but an army is not a nested hierarchy. I've seen this on multiple websites and from what I can see the people stating this are unfamiliar with military organization. Yes an army is a hierarchy but it is not "nested". The troops inside one unit are subject to the authority of any ranking officer, not just the one in charge of their unit. Units are often integrated together for various reasons. This means two "nests" in a hierarchy are combined into one. In addition to these violations, we also see the attributes of each hierarchy violated. For the military to be a true nested hierarchy the tactics, training, and expertise of each unit would have to have descended from somewhere up its branch. The navy would be strictly naval, the marines would be naval troops, the air force would strictly stay in the air, and the army would just be a land infantry force. That is not what we see. The navy has jets, the air force has ground recon troops, the army has gunboats and the marines can fight wars in deserts. Not to mention all the shared equipment. These borrowed tactics and equipment are violations of a nested hierarchy since they did not descend from further up an individual branch.
 
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Zosimus

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I'm sorry but an army is not a nested hierarchy. I've seen this on multiple websites and from what I can see the people stating this are unfamiliar with military organization. Yes an army is a hierarchy but it is not "nested". The troops inside one unit are subject to the authority of any ranking officer, not just the one in charge of their unit. Units are often integrated together for various reasons. This means two "nests" in a hierarchy are combined into one. In addition to these violations, we also see the attributes of each hierarchy violated. For the military to be a true nested hierarchy the tactics, training, and expertise of each unit would have to have descended from somewhere up its branch. The navy would be strictly naval, the marines would be naval troops, the air force would strictly stay in the air, and the army would just be a land infantry force. That is not what we see. The navy has jets, the air force has ground recon troops, the army has gunboats and the marines can fight wars in deserts. Not to mention all the shared equipment. These borrowed tactics and equipment are violations of a nested hierarchy since they did not descend from further up an individual branch.
A nested hierarchy is nothing more than a hierarchical ordering of nested sets. Russian nested dolls are the typical example used to illustrate the concept.
 
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crjmurray

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A nested hierarchy is nothing more than a hierarchical ordering of nested sets. Russian nested dolls are the typical example used to illustrate the concept.

And a military does not fit that for the reasons mentioned above.
 
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Zosimus

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And a military does not fit that for the reasons mentioned above.
"... nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. On the other hand, the general at the top of a military command does not consist of his soldiers and so the military command is a non-nested hierarchy with regard to the soldiers in the army."
 
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crjmurray

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"... nested hierarchies involve levels which consist of, and contain, lower levels. Non-nested hierarchies are more general in that the requirement of containment of lower levels is relaxed. For example, an army consists of a collection of soldiers and is made up of them. Thus an army is a nested hierarchy. On the other hand, the general at the top of a military command does not consist of his soldiers and so the military command is a non-nested hierarchy with regard to the soldiers in the army."

Yes I've read that exact same quote on multiple sites. It is an ignorant assertion. I have explained why a military organization is not a true nested hierarchy. Do you want to address that?
 
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Zosimus

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I'm sorry but an army is not a nested hierarchy.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...

The troops inside one unit are subject to the authority of any ranking officer, not just the one in charge of their unit.
Irrelevant.

Units are often integrated together for various reasons. This means two "nests" in a hierarchy are combined into one.
Irrelevant.

In addition to these violations, we also see the attributes of each hierarchy violated. For the military to be a true nested hierarchy the tactics, training, and expertise of each unit would have to have descended from somewhere up its branch.
That is not part of the definition of a nested hierarchy. When I say "an army is a nested hierarchy" that is not the same as saying "the tactics of the army are a nested hierarchy."

...the marines can fight wars in deserts.
And tigers, while not amphibious, can swim. What's your point?

Not to mention all the shared equipment. These borrowed tactics and equipment are violations of a nested hierarchy since they did not descend from further up an individual branch.
So an army is a nested hierarchy while the tactics and equipment of the army are not part of a nested hierarchy.
 
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