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Ellen White on the Sabbath

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TruthWave7

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The following texts explode your premise, by proving that the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary, where the originals are beyond the grasp of earthly beings.

Hebrews 9:4

"Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now."

Hebrews 9:23-24

"It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence."

Revelation 11:19

9 "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm."
 
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MoreCoffee

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TruthWave7, when you're in the heavenly sanctuary you can keep a heavenly 7th day and make heavenly sacrifices and keep heavenly laws if it pleases you. Then you can tell us all how you exploded the teaching of Christ about the fulfilment of the law in his Earthly work. That'll be an interesting thing for us to "hear".

As for me, I'll stick with what Jesus said about the law. None of it, not even the smallest letter or the tiniest dot, passed away until all was fulfilled. And we know, as you no doubt acknowledge, that the laws about sacrifices passed and therefore all was fulfilled and so we are on solid ground when we disagree with you about our need to be under the ten commandments and dietary laws and any other laws that SDAs think one must obey.

Thanks for your comments, TruthWave7, they were enlightening for me as far as SDA perspectives go.
 
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Elder 111

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And your proof to that clam is.....

bugkiller
It is stated that the earthly sanctuary was a pattern of the heavenly. Ex 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it] and Heb. 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (a reading of Heb. 8&9 will give a good picture). Then John saw the ark of testimony in Heaven which of course contains the law. Rev. 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:Rev. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The earthly was a copy of the original.
 
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Elder 111

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I avoided nothing. I sad nothing even by quote in post 658. I responded to Lysimachus's post 554 about the word "the" with a discussion. And yes for the record I will state the sabbath was not made for all mankind. That would be calling Moses a liar which I will not do. Now please identify the man of MK 2:27. The implies a single specific entity and not one of many. If the word the was not there I would not have posed this question.

bugkiller

Accepting your conclusion that the Sabbath was made for Jesus then the Sabbath can be nothing else but the Lord's day.
 
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Lysimachus

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OK I had to revisit this post on the argument "the man" in the Greek. My challenge is where else is "the man" mentioned in Scripture? And just who is "the man?"

I came up with I Tim 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But the Greek only says anthropos Christ Jesus. It does not use the adjective "the." So some would argue that Christ Jesus is just a mere man like the rest of us and does not have a dual nature as in God and man. That would be great for some people's doctrine. However the Scripture clearly states Jesus is God. Remember the argument of John 8:58? The Jews understood this very plainly and sought to kill Jesus for blasphemy. Jesus is called the second Adam (second man). Jesus the man came into being without sin. Jesus' Father was not a man, but God. Jesus is the only begotten man (Son of God - Jn 1 and 3). All others were made by God.

But Jesus says "the man." Who is "the man?" "The" is a specific and exclusive article and not an inclusive article used as an adjective to identify. Most other verses I checked have some other adjective identifying anthropos such as every, no, a, that, this, righteous, etc. Some of these mean to identify a certian but not exclusive man. But the the identifies an exclusive man. Jesus is and was like no other man. Jesus is a supernatural man not having the seed of a man and only the seed of a woman Gen 3:15. This is very abnormal and no one else but Jesus can claim this fact.

So my question is did this slip by the Jews and us? It certianly is miniscule and very common speech. But the eyes (understanding) of the Jews was blinded. Is ours to also blinded? Thinking about it some I can see how the language experts failed us here. Men are dense and hard to be convinced of thing that are contrary to us naturally.

I think that Jesus really said the sabbath was made for Me (God) the God-man and the God-man (Me - Jesus) not made for the sabbath. That would be absolutely true.

Yep ya can argue the literal words all ya want. Is there something about the natural man understanding spiritual things? I say let the spiritual eyes be opened.

I can not say thank you enough for pointing out the Greek says "the" man in MK 2:27.

bugkiller

Your argument above doesn't mean anything, because we are all "IN Christ Jesus". Since Jesus is the "second Adam", the expression "the man" for Christ Jesus is adequate.

It doesn't take a Ph.D. to realize that the expression "the man" or even just "man" is simply referring to the generation of mankind.

If the expression "the man" only meant "one man", well then, I guess you guys would have to admit that the Sabbath wasn't "Jewish", now was it? For if it was just made for Adam, we all know Adam wasn't a Jew.

But you guys know that the Sabbath was also for the Jews, so now you'd be forced to accept that the expression "the man" must mean, "for Adam and the Jews". But we know that sounds absolutely ridiculous, as we'd be then confessing that we only believe Jews were the descendants of Adam, and not Gentiles, lol.

Anyway, it doesn't matter which hoops you try to jump through.

The Sabbath was made for "man", not "the Jew". Jesus did not say, "The Sabbath was made for the seed of Abraham". But even if He DID say, "The Sabbath was made for the Seed of Abraham", it still wouldn't mean it's only made for Jews, for all those who are "in Christ" are part of the seed of Abraham, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Furthermore, Paul narrows down "WHICH" off-spring FROM Abraham are those who are "in Christ"....those are those who are "AS ISAAC" was.....

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Galatians 4:28)

"in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Genesis 21:12)

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Romans 9:7)

So thus we see, even if the Sabbath was made "only for the Jews", that would include all Gentiles--for all those Gentiles who are "in Christ" are part of the "seed of Abraham"--"in Isaac"--through his line. Thus we see that Paul is speaking about "spiritual descendants"--a "faith lineage".

Jesus said to the Jewish Nation:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

Thus Jesus said that God would "take" the kingdom away from Israel, and given to another nation bearing forth fruit.

We see this "nation" mentioned as literal Israel in Exodus 19:6, but then finally realized in 2 Peter 2:9 as belonging to also the Gentiles.

Thus, it only goes to serve...that if the Sabbath was a Sign between God and Israel "forever", as a "perpetual covenant", and now the kingdom of Israel was taken from the Jewish Nation and GIVEN to another nation bearing forth fruit, then that SABBATH SIGN which is a "perpetual [or everlasting] covenant" (Exodus 31:16) now transfers over to us--the Church. :)

We also see that if the Sabbath was only made for "Jesus", and we are all "in Christ Jesus", then the Sabbath was made for all those who are "in Christ". :)

It's only a matter of simple deduction.

So no matter how one tries to get around Mark 2:27, our ground is thoroughly and Biblically covered.

So we can play peekaboo, ring around the rosy, we can skip, we can hop, and we can dance between the raindrops, but we can't remove these irrefutable pillars of Sacred truth.

The Sabbath is an eternal monument, and NOTHING humanity does to it can bring it down.
 
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Lysimachus

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TruthWave7, when you're in the heavenly sanctuary you can keep a heavenly 7th day and make heavenly sacrifices and keep heavenly laws if it pleases you. Then you can tell us all how you exploded the teaching of Christ about the fulfilment of the law in his Earthly work. That'll be an interesting thing for us to "hear".

As for me, I'll stick with what Jesus said about the law. None of it, not even the smallest letter or the tiniest dot, passed away until all was fulfilled. And we know, as you no doubt acknowledge, that the laws about sacrifices passed and therefore all was fulfilled and so we are on solid ground when we disagree with you about our need to be under the ten commandments and dietary laws and any other laws that SDAs think one must obey.

Thanks for your comments, TruthWave7, they were enlightening for me as far as SDA perspectives go.

It would also be interesting to hear "your version" of the heavenly Testimony, and what reads on these tables.

I happen to trust God that when He gave us the earthly sanctuary, He gave us a teaching tool to each us about heaven's sanctuary. It was a "copy", a "figure", a "pattern" of the heavenly things.

Thus, we don't need to guess how heaven's version reads. We know that during this time of earthly crises, heaven's Tables have been "adapted" for mankind's fallen condition. Thus we know that at least now, while there is sin, God's original ten commandments in heaven read the same as the earthly tables, for heaven's temple right now is centered on the redemption of mankind--and this is precisely why after the millennium, "no temple was seen" in the New Jerusalem.

It's pretty simple MoreCoffee. Don't try to complicate things.

Heaven's Testimony reads just the same. Otherwise, the earth's copy would not truly be a "copy" after all if read any different.

Adventists choose to go by the Bible. We have no excuse to desecrate His Holy Sabbath.
 
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Lysimachus

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Lysimachus, Where does the bible say that there is a heavenly ten commandments?

I am glad that you asked this question.

Heaven's Original Ten Commandments
The Earthy Tables - an Exact Transcript of the Heavenly

~ by Lysimachus

We see in the sacred pages of Revelation that John the revelator saw the Testimony in the Temple of Heaven. As we will now see, this "Testimony" in heaven is an exact transcript of the Tables given to Moses at Sinai:

In Revelation 11:19 we read:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." (Revelation 11:19)​

Now let's compare Revelation 11:19 with 15:5:

"And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." (Revelation 15:5)​

The word "temple" here in the Greek is "naos", which has allusion to the "inner shrine" of a temple, and the word for "tabernacle" here is "skene", which means the entire "sanctuary". This means that the "Temple OF the tabernacle OF the testimony" is referring directly to the "testimony" contained in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, where it is encased in the Ark of the Covenant.

Now let's employ "scripture with scripture" to decipher what this "testimony" in heaven actually is. The Lord told Moses the following concerning the Two Tables of Stone:

"And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:16)

"And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:21)​

As we can see, the Tables of Stone were called the "testimony". Further texts to collaborate this are established in the following:

"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." (Exodus 31:18 )

"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written." (Exodus 32:15)

"And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him." (Exodus 34:29)​

JudgmentLawHeaven.jpg


Once again, the Lord our God has given us enough information for which to clearly see that the Ten Commandments given to Moses were an exact transcript of the original testimony in heaven. This fact is further validated by the following point:

"Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. (12) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone [The original Hebrew can also be translated "OF the stone"] ,and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them." (Exodus 24:9-12)​

This passage stresses that God gave His Ten Commandments FROM heaven. He gave Moses a COPY!

It has been argued that it is "speculation" to determine what laws are found on the Testimony in heaven. With this I ask: If we are unaware what laws are written on Heaven's testimony, how can we be judged by them according to James 2? And if we do not know what laws are contained on these original tables, what is Christ mediating for? Which sins is He interceding for? Also what kind of God would not make them known to His created beings? The answer to this question is: He has made them known to us! He has given us enough information to see that the Tables given to Moses were a transcript of the Heavenly Original!

Notice the following written by a well-known evangelist in the mid 20th century by the name of Allen Walker:

There is a reason why the Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark, and it must not be overlooked. The ark was the most sacred article in the temple. It was placed in the holy of holies, and over it were cherubim (angels) of glory. (Hebrews 9:5.) It was from the mercy seat that mercy and grace were dispensed to the penitent transgressor. Of the angels at the ends of the ark it was written: “The cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.” Exodus 25:20. These angels were to look down upon the ark, showing the respect which Heaven has for God’s law. God further said, “There I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims.” Verse 22. Above the ark was the throne of the Infinite, and inside the ark was the law of love containing the principles of the divine government. David prayed, “Thou that dwells between the cherubims, shine forth.” Psalm 80:1. God dwelt mystically “between the cherubims” in the earthly sanctuary; and there mercy had its “seat,” or source, and from there pardon was granted for the violation of the law of love in the ark.

All this constituted “figures” of the true sanctuary in heaven, and today “Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Hebrews 9:24. There Jesus, as our High Priest, mediates for sinners. But what is sin? We have the answer in 1 John 3:4: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” Which law? We find the answer in Revelation 11:19: “The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” There we find the real ark; there we find the real Priest; there we find the real mediation; and there we find “the ark of his testament” - the real Ten Commandments after which the earthly was patterned. If the law that was in the ark was abrogated at the cross, Christ is mediating for the transgression of an abrogated law!

ChristHighPriest.jpg


These are irrefutable truths which escape the mind of the man who holds this sacred law in contempt. The very fact that the original of this law is in heaven, where Christ, our High Priest, mediates His blood for pardon, shows how impossible it would be for this law to be done away with. No stronger argument could be produced to prove that the Ten Commandments is not abolished. And today, just as in the earthly ark, it must read, “The seventh day is the Sabbath,” else it would not be a true pattern.

In the Old Testament sin is defined as doing “somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done” (Leviticus 4:27); and in the New Testament it is the same: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4.) In the Old Testament these commandments of the Lord were kept in the ark, in the holy of holies, where God dwelt. This ark was called “the ark of the testimony.” Years after the cross John was permitted to see the temple above, and he says there was seen in God’s temple “the ark of his testament.” So there it is today, defining sin; and there Jesus is, too, mediating His blood for the transgression of the law.

~ Source: Allen Walker The Law and the Sabbath, pp. 60-61, [Hard-copy version: pages 119-120]​

It is important to realize that the New Testament employs itself as the antitype of Old Testament types. This means that the New Testament employs itself as the focal point in fulfillment of Old Testament patterns. Exodus 25:9-40 describes on how the Sanctuary materials were made after a pattern, and the Hebrew for pattern is "tabniyth", and it means a form, plan, figure, image--equivalent to "tupos" in the Greek.

In Hebrews 8:5 the sanctuary was an "example" and "shadow" of heavenly things. In Greek, the word for “example” is "hupadeigma", which means an "example, an imitation, a figure, a copy", and the word for shadow is "skia" means an "image cast by an object and representing the form of that object." These words are very similar to "tupos" and "antitupos".

So in essence, the Mosaic sanctuary was a pattern, a miniature model, a type of heavenly things. With this in mind, it becomes clear that the local and literal settings of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Jews, were a type of the worldwide saints with the Heavenly Jerusalem being the capital of the saints. The saints of the New Covenant make up the spiritual Davidic Sanctuary, and the New Testament Saints come to God through the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary--the Antitypical interpretation shows that the literal settings of Ancient Israel served as a Type, or a Pattern, of worldwide Spiritual Israel.

With this in mind, to conclude that the laws written on the Tables of Stone given to Moses are somehow "different" from the laws engraved in Stone in heaven would be a "perversion of the scriptures", for that would mean that the Ark of God's Testament in Heaven is truly not a copy of the original after all! We don't need to guess how heaven's version reads. We know that during this time of earthly crises, heaven's Testimony contained in the Ark have been "adapted" for mankind's fallen condition. Thus we know that at least now, while there is sin, God's original Ten Commandments in heaven read the same as the earthly tables, for heaven's temple right now is centered on the redemption of mankind--and this is precisely why after the millennium, "no temple” will be seen in the New Jerusalem (See Rev. 21:22).

We must remember that the very reason why the "Ark of the Testament" is called the "Ark of the Testament" is because the "Testimony" is inside the Ark! Otherwise it would be the "Ark of Nothing", or the "Ark of THIN AIR".

The words of Paul and James demonstrate, without a shadow of doubt, that the Ten Commandments are still binding in the New Covenant.

In Romans 7:7, Paul says:

"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Q) Let us raise the question: Where did Paul derive the phrase "Thou shalt not covet"?

Answer: The answer is obvious. Paul could only have derived it from the Moral Ten Commandment law, demonstrating that Paul himself recognized its perpetuity. Why, not even Christ ever quoted this commandment! He well knew that God's faithful people are to live in accordance to His Royal Precepts--the original Tables of Stone that dwell in the Ark of the Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary!


Paul continues in chapter 13:

"(8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)​

We see then how Paul repeats commandments for which Christ did not even stress. One might argue here that Paul is stressing these are the only important commandments out of the Ten. But that argument does not work for Paul mentions the importance of honoring our father and mother in Ephesians 6:1-3, and does not in Romans 13.

In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

~ Lysimachus
 
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MoreCoffee

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All that SDA art and SDA propaganda and you still failed to find a single passage in the bible that says that the ten commandments are in heaven.

The pictures are kind of revealing. They tell me that SDAs are very old testament oriented. So it is not just the ten commandments that get obsessive treatment but the whole system of religion too.

By the way, what's that angel with the pen and book doing? The one in this picture

JudgmentLawHeaven.jpg


And in the other picture, are those real living angels standing on top of the gold covered wooden box? Is that supposed to be the heavenly ark of the covenant?

ChristHighPriest.jpg


And I presume that's Jesus dressed up like an Aaronic high priest despite the fact the scripture explicitly stated that Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and not entitled to Aaronic priesthood. I guess that's an inconvenient detail for SDA temple teaching.

Have you ever wondered why these words are juxtaposed?
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (Revelation 11:19-12:2)​
 
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Lysimachus

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MoreCoffee,

I feel that I have already addressed your arguments, and I have shown you that the Ten Commandments were called the "testimony"--as per Moses' account. It is the Ark of the Testimony, the Ark of the Testament, or the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of THE Covenant means there is a "covenant" inside of it.

With the evidence presented that the earthly is a figure of the original, we feel we have the blueprint laid out before us.

I have no desire to get caught in semantics. I feel that if people are seeking for truth, it will be plainly seen. Nonetheless, I respect if you or anyone else chooses to disagree with our conclusions.

The images are simply for "visual conceptual purposes" regarding the fact that we go before the Throne of God to obtain Mercy and Grace (see Hebrews 4:16).

You are free to ignore the images if you want. I just added them because they are in my article that I wrote, and I thought they looked pretty.

And indeed, I did write the article. I am careful to quote when it is not me, of course.

Here is the original link:
Heaven's Original Ten Commandments (the one I posted above, however, is slightly updated from the latest revision on my computer for which I have yet to upload).

I also wrote the rest of the articles I uploaded in this link here:
Marcos S. (propheticlandmarks) on Scribd | Scribd

Yes, my name real name is Marcos. ;)

It is an excerpt from my upcoming book, "Vindicating the Historicist Hermenuetic" (approximately 300 pages in length thus far), or perhaps later will be changed to "Vindicating the Historical Approach of Prophetic Interpretation". We'll see.

I would also have to disagree with you that we as Adventists (at least orthodox Adventism--not to be confused with the "Eastern Orthodox Church") are "Old Testament oriented". We as Adventists believe that the Earthly Sanctuary and the Earthly Ark of the Covenant was the focus of the Old Covenant. But now we are to look upward, where Christ, after the true order of Melchizedek, intercedes before us in the Real Temple, the Real Sanctuary, before the Real Ark which contains the Real Original Testimony for which the earthly Old Testament version was patterned after. The New Covenant is based on a work God is performing in His believers----where the Holy Ghost is writing this same law in their hearts where we keep them based on "faith", not out of an Old Covenant duty based on "works"--that is, a wrong motive for keeping them--as a ticket to salvation or to earn some brownie points rather than as a result of true genuine love for God. We see that Israel failed in the Old Covenant because they did not attain to the law of righteousness because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law (Romans 9:31,32). Thus we see precisely why the Old Covenant failed. The heart and core of the "faultiness" of the Old Covenant was a faulty motive for keeping the law of God. (See Hebrews 8:7, 8).

After Christ's ascension into heaven, there is a far better covenant that is centered on the Heavenly Sanctuary. Now all the earthly remedial sanctuary services have now transferred to the heavenly remedial sanctuary services realized in Christ Jesus, as He ministers as our High Priest, who ever liveth, "to making intercession for us" (Hebrews 7:25). I believe the entire Local Old Testament setting was typology pointing forward to a Global New Testament setting.

Blessings.

Lysimachus
 
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bugkiller

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Your argument above doesn't mean anything, because we are all "IN Christ Jesus". Since Jesus is the "second Adam", the expression "the man" for Christ Jesus is adequate.

It doesn't take a Ph.D. to realize that the expression "the man" or even just "man" is simply referring to the generation of mankind.

If the expression "the man" only meant "one man", well then, I guess you guys would have to admit that the Sabbath wasn't "Jewish", now was it? For if it was just made for Adam, we all know Adam wasn't a Jew.

But you guys know that the Sabbath was also for the Jews, so now you'd be forced to accept that the expression "the man" must mean, "for Adam and the Jews". But we know that sounds absolutely ridiculous, as we'd be then confessing that we only believe Jews were the descendants of Adam, and not Gentiles, lol.

Anyway, it doesn't matter which hoops you try to jump through.

The Sabbath was made for "man", not "the Jew". Jesus did not say, "The Sabbath was made for the seed of Abraham". But even if He DID say, "The Sabbath was made for the Seed of Abraham", it still wouldn't mean it's only made for Jews, for all those who are "in Christ" are part of the seed of Abraham, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Furthermore, Paul narrows down "WHICH" off-spring FROM Abraham are those who are "in Christ"....those are those who are "AS ISAAC" was.....

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Galatians 4:28)

"in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Genesis 21:12)

"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Romans 9:7)

So thus we see, even if the Sabbath was made "only for the Jews", that would include all Gentiles--for all those Gentiles who are "in Christ" are part of the "seed of Abraham"--"in Isaac"--through his line. Thus we see that Paul is speaking about "spiritual descendants"--a "faith lineage".

Jesus said to the Jewish Nation:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

Thus Jesus said that God would "take" the kingdom away from Israel, and given to another nation bearing forth fruit.

We see this "nation" mentioned as literal Israel in Exodus 19:6, but then finally realized in 2 Peter 2:9 as belonging to also the Gentiles.

Thus, it only goes to serve...that if the Sabbath was a Sign between God and Israel "forever", as a "perpetual covenant", and now the kingdom of Israel was taken from the Jewish Nation and GIVEN to another nation bearing forth fruit, then that SABBATH SIGN which is a "perpetual [or everlasting] covenant" (Exodus 31:16) now transfers over to us--the Church. :)

We also see that if the Sabbath was only made for "Jesus", and we are all "in Christ Jesus", then the Sabbath was made for all those who are "in Christ". :)

It's only a matter of simple deduction.

So no matter how one tries to get around Mark 2:27, our ground is thoroughly and Biblically covered.

So we can play peekaboo, ring around the rosy, we can skip, we can hop, and we can dance between the raindrops, but we can't remove these irrefutable pillars of Sacred truth.

The Sabbath is an eternal monument, and NOTHING humanity does to it can bring it down.
HO boy?!! if this is not a self destructive explanation about the sabbath I have never read one. I read in amazewment the confussion and contradiction stired up.

I would wager that MSmmksparbud understands you perfectly. I sure am having a difficult time following your argument in light of your historic posting here at CF. I will read it a couple more times. I am a little distracted at the moment.

I already know several OT verses even from the Book of the Law that disagree with your presentation.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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It would also be interesting to hear "your version" of the heavenly Testimony, and what reads on these tables.

I happen to trust God that when He gave us the earthly sanctuary, He gave us a teaching tool to each us about heaven's sanctuary. It was a "copy", a "figure", a "pattern" of the heavenly things.

Thus, we don't need to guess how heaven's version reads. We know that during this time of earthly crises, heaven's Tables have been "adapted" for mankind's fallen condition. Thus we know that at least now, while there is sin, God's original ten commandments in heaven read the same as the earthly tables, for heaven's temple right now is centered on the redemption of mankind--and this is precisely why after the millennium, "no temple was seen" in the New Jerusalem.

It's pretty simple MoreCoffee. Don't try to complicate things.

Heaven's Testimony reads just the same. Otherwise, the earth's copy would not truly be a "copy" after all if read any different.

Adventists choose to go by the Bible. We have no excuse to desecrate His Holy Sabbath.
First of all the Stone tablets are not copies of some heavenly article. Secondly no one has seen them in heaven by vision including EGW.

bugkiller
 
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TruthWave7

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First of all the Stone tablets are not copies of some heavenly article. Secondly no one has seen them in heaven by vision including EBW.

bugkiller

Do you deny the testimony of John the Revelator? The Apostle John saw in vision, the Ark of the Covenant in the heavenly sanctuary. Its recorded in Revelation 11:19

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm." (And wherever the Ark is the 10 Commandments were inside). Think about this: Who would be able to steal the original 10 Commandments in heaven!?
 
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bugkiller

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Do you deny the testimony of John the Revelator? The Apostle John saw in vision, the Ark of the Covenant in the heavenly sanctuary. Its recorded in Revelation 11:19

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm." (And wherever the Ark is the 10 Commandments were inside). Think about this: Who would be able to steal the original 10 Commandments in heaven!?
I believe John the Revelator saw the Ark of the Covenant. I do not believe that John the Revelator saw the contents of the Ark of the Covenant. Neither did EGW BTW.

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TruthWave7

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I believe John the Revelator saw the Ark of the Covenant. I do not believe that John the Revelator saw the contents of the Ark of the Covenant. Neither did EGW BTW.

bugkiller

OK, then let me ask you this question: Do you think that the Ark of the Covenant would be empty, and not have the original two tablets of the 10 Commandments inside the Ark of the Covenant? Here is the clincher: Since the earthly sanctuary had an Ark of the Covenant with the 10 Commandments in it, and the earthly was patterned after the heavenly original in the heavenly sanctuary, therefore that is proof positive that the original 10 Commandments are in the heavenly Ark of the Covenant.

Acts 7:44

"Our fathers had the tabernacle of testimony in the wilderness, just as He who spoke to Moses directed him to make it according to the pattern which he had seen."

Hebrews 8:5

"They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: "Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain."


Exodus 25:40

"And see that you make them after their pattern, which was shown you on the mount."
 
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Stick with the NT folks and you'll do just fine on Judgment Day.
Do you know that Jesus quoted 100% OT texts in the NT? Jesus considered the OT as the Bible in the NT, and yet you want to do away with 2/3 of the Bible.
 
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MoreCoffee

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What John says he saw in his vision was the ark of the covenant but he would not be referring to the ark of the old covenant which was, of course, an earthly copy of what exists in heaven. The covenant that John would be referring to is the new covenant and its ark is not a wooden box covered in gold. If you want to pursue the vision's image then read on; the next thing that John sees is a woman dressed in the sun and standing on the moon with twelve stars as a crown on her head.
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 11:19-12:1)​

What did this woman have to do with the temple and the ark of the covenant you might ask, and why is she clothed in the sun (a gold far more bright than any earthly gold) and why does she stand on the moon and have a crown of 12 stars? In addition this woman is not the centre of this continuing vision because she is pregnant and her child draws the apostle's eye thus
She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. (Revelation 12:2-6)​

Of course there is no vision of tablets of stone with the ten commandments in this passage (or any other passage set in heaven in either testament) so the art work in brother Lysimachus' very long post does not correspond to anything mentioned in Revelation. The following image, imperfect as it is, is far closer to what John saw than was the image that brother Lysimachus gave.
flickr-2765054073-hd1.jpg


The juxtaposition of the ark of the covenant and the woman is interesting, it is also interesting that this woman "contained" a baby, the child born to rule the nations with a rod of iron. There is another passage a little later in Revelation that also speaks of ruling the nations with a rod of iron.
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Revelation 19:11-15)​

The contents of this woman is, it appears, Jesus Christ and it is not surprising that the contents of the woman is the new covenant himself, because, after all, Christ's said that the cup he gave to the apostles was the new covenant in his blood and that appears to identify the new covenant with Christ himself rather with with commandments written in stone. The testimony that gets a mention in Revelation is not the ten commandments but rather the testimony of Jesus.
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. (Revelation 12:17)​
 
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