Ellen G White and SoP/ToJ references, for much error prevails ...

[BobRyan]

Not really. You are stretching things. Sripture can be bent to prove lots of things. Even turning wine into grapejuice

the mere quote of it is called "stretching " when that quote does not fit a certain bias and when scripture details "need" to be ignored.

This is an SDA forum which means that "the default" view of the reader is not going to be "anything but the Bible" or - "any position will do". You would need a pretty good objective Bible position on whatever idea you wished to promote here that goes against the starting point for the group.

For my point - I always argue that everyone has free will and that includes you as well. All I had to do was state the Bible case and then let the chips fall where they may. As long as Bible details keep surfacing "that must be ignored" to make the case for one side of the discussion - that side has a less than optimal chance of compelling the readers.

Even better - the readers have a clear example of what Bible texts "work" in a real discussion when certain objections arise. Everyone wins.

 

[CaptainToad]

the mere quote of it is called "stretching " when that quote does not fit a certain bias and when scripture details "need" to be ignored.

This is an SDA forum which means that "the default" view of the reader is not going to be "anything but the Bible" or - "any position will do". You would need a pretty good objective Bible position on whatever idea you wished to promote here that goes against the starting point for the group.

For my point - I always argue that everyone has free will and that includes you as well. All I had to do was state the Bible case and then let the chips fall where they may. As long as Bible details keep surfacing "that must be ignored" to make the case for one side of the discussion - that side has a less than optimal chance of compelling the readers.

Even better - the readers have a clear example of what Bible texts "work" in a real discussion when certain objections arise. Everyone wins.

The bible is subject to interpretation. Used to prove the general narrative of a group when texts are favorable and twisted of they are not. You did your best to defend a lost position, mostly ignoring the matter and providing scripture to distract from the core problem. It was even kinda cool .
But I don't blame anyone, that's how our minds work.

 

[BobRyan]

The bible is subject to interpretation.

I just got that from one of our Catholic friends on the subject of Rome/ Babylon and what the term means in the book of Revelation.

You did your best to defend a lost position, mostly ignoring the texts I provided to distract from the core problem of ignoring the Jeremiah 18 nature of conditional prophecy (is that subject new to you??). It was even kinda cool .

And very helpful to show the readers here how this works when one sticks with scripture.

 

[CaptainToad]

I just got that from one of our Catholic friends on the subject of Rome/ Babylon and what the term means in the book of Revelation.

You did your best to defend a lost position, mostly ignoring the texts I provided to distract from the core problem of ignoring the Jeremiah 18 nature of conditional prophecy (is that subject new to you??). It was even kinda cool .

And very helpful to show the readers here how this works when one sticks with scripture.

Whatever you got from your catholic friend doesn't mean the bible is not subject to interpretation.

All you did was prove that prophecies CAN be conditional, a point which I never argued.
You never proved the worm prophecy to be
conditional. The worm prophecy isn't so much about the people at the conference it's about the 2nd coming during their lifespan. Niniveh and Israel in the wilderness did something to either avoid or bring about a certain punishment/or loss of reward. The people at the conference could not, or are trying to imply their actions caused a delay of hundreds of years? There was no condition given!


Based on your way of argumenation, the whole adventist endtime view becomes shaky. I could argue rome/babylon might be the harlot of revelation but it doesn't mean it cannot repent from its harlot status and eventually not pursue the saints and eventually not set up an image and eventually not introduce the mark of the beast. And eventually not fight sabbath day keepers?

Would you say that was possible in an all conditional world?

 

[BobRyan]

The bible is subject to interpretation.

I just got that from one of our Catholic friends on the subject of Rome/ Babylon and what the term means in the book of Revelation.

You did your best to defend a lost position, mostly ignoring the texts I provided to distract from the core problem of ignoring the Jeremiah 18 nature of conditional prophecy (is that subject new to you??). It was even kinda cool .

And very helpful to show the readers here how this works when one sticks with scripture.

Whatever you got from your catholic friend doesn't mean the bible is not subject to interpretation.

As we repeatedly point out to our Catholic friends the objective standard of scripture that works even across denominations is "Sola Scriptura".

So the Acts 17:11 non-christians "study the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so"

And Mark 7 where Christ hammers the traditions of the magisterium of his own denomination - sola scriptura.

So also in Matt 22 where Christ proves the future resurrection to the point of "silencing" the Sadducees

All you did was prove that prophecies CAN be conditional,

I did not write Jeremiah 18.

The text does not say "I CAN use this but don't think of it as always being true".

Thus in the case of Jonah's message there is "UNLESS of course you repent" yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18.

Thus in the case of Moses's statement about the future where there is no "but of course you will die in the wilderness instead IF.." in his message. Yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18 regarding the conditional nature of prophecy.

the point remains.

 

[Gary K]

Obvious things don't require supporting evidence

LOL. So you support one assertion with another assertion of the same ilk.

 

[CaptainToad]

I just got that from one of our Catholic friends on the subject of Rome/ Babylon and what the term means in the book of Revelation.

You did your best to defend a lost position, mostly ignoring the texts I provided to distract from the core problem of ignoring the Jeremiah 18 nature of conditional prophecy (is that subject new to you??). It was even kinda cool .

And very helpful to show the readers here how this works when one sticks with scripture.



As we repeatedly point out to our Catholic friends the objective standard of scripture that works even across denominations is "Sola Scriptura".

So the Acts 17:11 non-christians "study the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so"

And Mark 7 where Christ hammers the traditions of the magisterium of his own denomination - sola scriptura.

So also in Matt 22 where Christ proves the future resurrection to the point of "silencing" the Sadducees



I did not write Jeremiah 18.

The text does not say "I CAN use this but don't think of it as always being true".

Thus in the case of Jonah's message there is "UNLESS of course you repent" yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18.

Thus in the case of Moses's statement about the future where there is no "but of course you will die in the wilderness instead IF.." in his message. Yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18 regarding the conditional nature of prophecy.

the point remains.

Indeed sola scriptura is a good thing, keep it up!

Btw who did you say is the final interpreter of scripture in the sda?

Glad you finally replied to the worm prophecy in detail without any attempted distractions or was it somebody else?

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed sola scriptura is a good thing, keep it up!

Thanks. Hence my reference to Jer 18 scripture stating the conditional nature of prophecy.
And then my example from the book of Job and from the writings of Moses showing two great examples of it -- even though no "if you do this... then I will do that" format is in their prophecies at all. Still they illustrate the Jeremiah 18 principle of conditional prophecy.

I
Btw who did you say is the final interpreter of scripture

Catholics tend to see that the ECFs, the Papacy, RCC tradition is... but as SDAs we say the Holy Spirit is because that is what John 16 tells us.

 

[BobRyan]

Glad you finally replied to the worm prophecy in detail without any attempted distractions or was it somebody else?

When the Biblical principles regarding the conditional nature of prophecy are presented from Jer 18 and then examples given from scripture - of how that works in real life -- you call it "a distraction" from your preference and goal.

to each his own.

 

[CaptainToad]

Thanks. Hence my reference to Jer 18 scripture stating the conditional nature of prophecy.
And then my example from the book of Job and from the writings of Moses showing two great examples of it -- even though no "if you do this... then I will do that" format is in their prophecies at all. Still they illustrate the Jeremiah 18 principle of conditional prophecy.



Catholics tend to see that the ECFs, the Papacy, RCC tradition is... but as SDAs we say the Holy Spirit is because that is what John 16 tells us.

Ok! I always thought its egw. Maybe I am just a little confused, or not?

 

[CaptainToad]

When the Biblical principles regarding the conditional nature of prophecy are presented from Jer 18 and then examples given from scripture - of how that works in real life -- you call it "a distraction" from your preference and goal.

to each his own.

Bob, I don't blame you! You wanna defend this, I get it!
However, I still don't understand how Jeremiah relates to the worm prophecy! I mean, you cannot claim that Jeremiah makes all (false) prophecies right, now do you?
You didn't reply to my point on revelation.

 

[BobRyan]

I did not write Jeremiah 18.

The text does not say "I CAN use this but don't think of it as always being true".

Thus in the case of Jonah's message there is "UNLESS of course you repent" yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18.

Thus in the case of Moses's statement about the future where there is no "but of course you will die in the wilderness instead IF.." in his message. Yet it can be inferred because of the rule of Jeremiah 18 regarding the conditional nature of prophecy.

the point remains.

It's scripture.

I like it.

Bob, I don't blame you! You wanna defend this, I get it!

True. I am "funny that way" when it comes to the teaching that we find in scripture EVEN if it is teaching about the conditional nature of prophecy.

However, I still don't understand how Jeremiah relates to the worm prophecy!

Did God say in Jeremiah 18 "all prophecy is conditional UNLESS it is about the timing for the second coming"??

2 Peter 3 "11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"

Peter points to the variable in the timing for the 2nd coming. The very thing you claim Jeremiah 18 can't possibly apply to -- for reasons you have yet to explain.

 

[BobRyan]

I mean, you cannot claim that Jeremiah makes all (false) prophecies right, now do you?

The wooden ruler you are attempting to insert as you delete Jeremiah 18 would make both Jonah and Moses false prophets. An obvious flaw in your solution.

The actual Bible with Jeremiah 18 still in it - makes them true prophets.

There were many prophets such as Jeremiah and John and Moses that predicted bad outcomes if the people turned to rebellion. They would have been false prophets IF the people turned to rebellion and there was no bad outcome.

They also predicted good outcomes if the people repent and turned from rebellion. They would have been false prophets if the people turned to God and only got "more bad outcome".

How is this not "the easy part"?? in fact the "incredibly easy part"??

 

[CaptainToad]

It's scripture.

I like it.


True. I am "funny that way" when it comes to the teaching that we find in scripture EVEN if it is teaching about the conditional nature of prophecy.



Did God say in Jeremiah 18 "all prophecy is conditional UNLESS it is about the timing for the second coming"??

2 Peter 3 "11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"

Peter points to the variable in the timing for the 2nd coming. The very thing you claim Jeremiah 18 can't possibly apply to -- for reasons you have yet to explain.

No Bob! I wasn't talking about scripture here but you know that!

 

[CaptainToad]

The wooden ruler you are attempting to insert as you delete Jeremiah 18 would make both Jonah and Moses false prophets. An obvious flaw in your solution.

The actual Bible with Jeremiah 18 still in it - makes them true prophets.

There were many prophets such as Jeremiah and John and Moses that predicted bad outcomes if the people turned to rebellion. They would have been false prophets IF the people turned to rebellion and there was no bad outcome.

They also predicted good outcomes if the people repent and turned from rebellion. They would have been false prophets if the people turned to God and only got "more bad outcome".

How is this not "the easy part"?? in fact the "incredibly easy part"??

Let's get back to the difficult part! How was the outcome of the worm prophecy related to the actions of the 158 people at the conference (give or take the exact number matter)

 

[CaptainToad]

2 Peter 3 "11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"

Peter points to the variable in the timing for the 2nd coming. The very thing you claim Jeremiah 18 can't possibly apply to -- for reasons you have yet to explain.[/QUOTE]

So you believe the 2nd coming is conditional when it comes to timing. I don't!

Bob, as I mentiones before, the bible is subject to interpretation. Not everyhing we read in the bible is clearly understandable without background. Egw is a different matter - when it comes to language and such, well....

Anyway, it is very much debatable what the word hastening means. Speudontas in greek.

I think the sda accepts the German Martin Luther bible as a viable translation:

2. Petrus 3.12

die ihr das Kommen des Tages Gottes erwartet und ihm entgegeneilt, wenn die Himmel vom Feuer zergehen und die Elemente vor Hitze zerschmelzen.

Google translate

who await the coming of the day of God, and come to meet him as the heavens melt from the fire and melt the elements from the heat.


The verb hastening can be interpreted in various ways I suppose.

I am not an expert on ancient translations, so maybe you could do some research on your own and find out for yourself what the verb hastening really means in the given context.


Do you see how this works, Bob? Just one word misunderstood and a whole pholosophy can be born!

 

[mmksparbud]

2 Peter 3 "11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"

Peter points to the variable in the timing for the 2nd coming. The very thing you claim Jeremiah 18 can't possibly apply to -- for reasons you have yet to explain.

So you believe the 2nd coming is conditional when it comes to timing. I don't!

Bob, as I mentiones before, the bible is subject to interpretation. Not everyhing we read in the bible is clearly understandable without background. Egw is a different matter - when it comes to language and such, well....

Anyway, it is very much debatable what the word hastening means. Speudontas in greek.

I think the sda accepts the German Martin Luther bible as a viable translation:

2. Petrus 3.12

die ihr das Kommen des Tages Gottes erwartet und ihm entgegeneilt, wenn die Himmel vom Feuer zergehen und die Elemente vor Hitze zerschmelzen.

Google translate

who await the coming of the day of God, and come to meet him as the heavens melt from the fire and melt the elements from the heat.

The verb hastening goes more into the direction of hastening towards it, this can be interpreted in various ways I suppose.

I am not an expert on ancient translations, so maybe you could do some research on your own and find out for yourself what the verb hastening really means in the given context.[/QUOTE]

Jesus returns when His timing is right, not ours.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[mmksparbud]

Let's get back to the difficult part! How was the outcome of the worm prophecy related to the actions of the 158 people at the conference (give or take the exact number matter)

OK. Now I remember---I set that aside because of this later on---by the same angel. It may not be enough for you, if was for me.

Said the angel: “Set your heart in order, lest He visit you in judgment, and the brittle thread of life be cut, and ye lie down in the grave unsheltered, unprepared for the judgment. Or if ye do not make your bed in the grave, unless ye soon make your peace with God, and tear yourselves from the world, your hearts will grow harder, and ye will lean upon a false prop, a supposed preparation, and find out your mistake too late to secure a well-grounded hope.” {1T 133.3}

To me, it is just that it was not time yet, though everything was set in place and in court the blue laws were ready for Federal legislation, it was turned down. I believe that God's people were not yet ready. There was a passage that I can't remember from where---had we had our harts fully surrendered to God back then, He would have come---He is still waiting for the right time. From everything happening, I do believe it will be soon, but I have no desire to go through that kind of horror. It will require a great faith.

We have not cast away our confidence, neither have we a message dependent upon definite time, but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Saviour, and doing all in our power for the preparation of our fellow men for that great event. We are not impatient. If the vision tarry, wait for it, for it will surely come, it will not tarry. Although disappointed, our faith has not failed, and we have not drawn back to perdition. The apparent tarrying is not so in reality, for at the appointed time our Lord will come, and we will, if faithful, exclaim, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us” (Isaiah 25:9). {10MR 270.2}

 

[CaptainToad]

So you believe the 2nd coming is conditional when it comes to timing. I don't!

Bob, as I mentiones before, the bible is subject to interpretation. Not everyhing we read in the bible is clearly understandable without background. Egw is a different matter - when it comes to language and such, well....

Anyway, it is very much debatable what the word hastening means. Speudontas in greek.

I think the sda accepts the German Martin Luther bible as a viable translation:

2. Petrus 3.12

die ihr das Kommen des Tages Gottes erwartet und ihm entgegeneilt, wenn die Himmel vom Feuer zergehen und die Elemente vor Hitze zerschmelzen.

Google translate

who await the coming of the day of God, and come to meet him as the heavens melt from the fire and melt the elements from the heat.

The verb hastening goes more into the direction of hastening towards it, this can be interpreted in various ways I suppose.

I am not an expert on ancient translations, so maybe you could do some research on your own and find out for yourself what the verb hastening really means in the given context.

Jesus returns when His timing is right, not ours.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/QUOTE]

It's a very fundamental point is the 2nd coming can indeed be hastened or not. I believe it can't!

When I look at it in the context of the whole world I don't think the so-called blue laws would have had an impact in the 1880s. You need to understand the whole context. The sda was very small the 1840-1850s and yet, in regard to the shut door doctrine they believed to be the only ones to be God's people. Sounds crazy but thats how it was. With time they admitted more people into the fold yet believing the 2nd coming was imminent.
Keep in mind we are talking about hundreds of sdas bot thousands at the time. In the context of the whole world population the expression very small might be an overstatement.
Even at the time of the worm prophecy, I think they didn't even enter Europe with their message. Even if they did it must have been a handful of followers at best at the time.

So what kind of readiness are we talking here that might bring about the 2nd coming?

The thing that I was trying to point out to Bob was, there is different kinds of conditions and prophecies. You cannot compare Niniveh or Moses to the 2nd coming or revelation or the worm prophecy.

Revelation is what is to come to pass. It is not in any way conditional. It is the revelation of how things are gonna unfold. God knows the future. He knew it before the foundation of the world. Everything in revelation has its appointed time. Each actor has its appointed role. Everything is how God has forseen it.
Take those 7 kings for example! Would that be the same seven kings in 1880s compared to if the 2nd coming was happening as we speak or in a hundred years?
Moreover, we have the book of the Lamb of revelation 13:8.
The names of people saved have been written down before the foundation of the world. Which further indicates an appointed time for the 2nd coming set before the foundation of the world.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus returns when His timing is right, not ours.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It's a very fundamental point is the 2nd coming can indeed be hastened or not. I believe it can't!

When I look at it in the context of the whole world I don't think the so-called blue laws would have had an impact in the 1880s. You need to understand the whole context. The sda was very small the 1840-1850s and yet, in regard to the shut door doctrine they believed to be the only ones to be God's people. Sounds crazy but thats how it was. With time they admitted more people into the fold yet believing the 2nd coming was imminent.
Keep in mind we are talking about hundreds of sdas bot thousands at the time. In the context of the whole world population the expression very small might be an overstatement.
Even at the time of the worm prophecy, I think they didn't even enter Europe with their message. Even if they did it must have been a handful of followers at best at the time.

So what kind of readiness are we talking here that might bring about the 2nd coming?

The thing that I was trying to point out to Bob was, there is different kinds of conditions and prophecies. You cannot compare Niniveh or Moses to the 2nd coming or revelation or the worm prophecy.

Revelation is what is to come to pass. It is not in any way conditional. It is the revelation of how things are gonna unfold. God knows the future. He knew it before the foundation of the world. Everything in revelation has its appointed time. Each actor has its appointed role. Everything is how God has forseen it.
Take those 7 kings for example! Would that be the same seven kings in 1880s compared to if the 2nd coming was happening as we speak or in a hundred years?
Moreover, we have the book of the Lamb of revelation 13:8.
The names of people saved have been written down before the foundation of the world. Which further indicates an appointed time for the 2nd coming set before the foundation of the world.[/QUOTE]

What God wants done, He can do as quickly as He needs to. It us very much dependent on certain things that must come to pass---however, those things can be made to happen quickly, Somewhere she says---"the last movements will be rapid ones."
When Jesus is done as our High Priest, He will say "it is done." And that will be that. No more time ---no more changing minds--whatever decisions have been made, will be the final ones.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Be careful how you read this one:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Depending on how you read it---Is it the names of the saved that are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world--or is it the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I have always read that as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. For it was His decision from before the world was created to give His life for us.