Ellen G White and SoP/ToJ references, for much error prevails ...

[Crosstian]

Ellen G White and SoP/ToJ references, for much error prevails in the copy paste world of apollo-get-ics.:

Library of Resources

Resources site

15 (so called) Bible Contradictions from Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

7 (so called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

Defending The Spirit Of Prophecy – Vance Ferrell (PDF)

Plagiarism Charges Of Walter Rea and his White “Lie” – Proved False – Vincent Ramik Report (PDF)

The Man Who Boarded The Phantom Ship – (critic Dudley Marvin Canright) – Vance Ferrell (PDF)

Replies to Elder D M Canright’s Attacks On Seventh-day Adventists – G I Butler (PDF)

Replies To D M Canright – Uriah Smith (PDF)

In Defense Of The Faith A Reply To D M Canright 1933 – William H Branson (PDF)

Answers To Objections Of SDA Theology And D M Canright – Francis D Nichol (PDF)

Ellen White Answers To Critics And D M Canright – Andrews University (PDF)

Letters to the Churches – M. L. Andreasen (PDF)

Ellen G. White

Ellen White’s Alleged Contradictions, Adventist Prophet

Ellen White’s Alleged Contradictions, Adventist Prophet, Page Two

Critique of Jeremiah Films' Video on Adventism: Intro, Indexes, Points #1-#20

Table of Contents of "A Response to the Video"

The Official Adventist Defense League

Defending SOP

Ellen G. White and Her Critics — Ellen G. White Writings

Ellen White

EllenWhiteDefend Home Page

http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/

 

[Crosstian]

Have you ever heard this (ignorant; not knowledgeable) claim against sister White, in which they say it is a failed prophecy?

In one of them written at or shortly after an SDA conference, EGW said, "My angel told me that some of them present would be food for worms, others subjects of the seven last plagues, and still others would be alive to be translated when Jesus returns."

(who actually said it on this board?, you'll have to ask moderation, since actually quoting the person who said such is illegal in their "reasoning", and will simply erase it.

This is specifically addressed in some detail in the following Link:

7 (so called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

Specifically see Point 5. This is answered in detail. The prophecy is yet to pass.

 

[CaptainToad]

Have you ever heard this (ignorant; not knowledgeable) claim against sister White, in which they say it is a failed prophecy?

(who actually said it on this board?, you'll have to ask moderation, since actually quoting the person who said such is illegal in their "reasoning", and will simply erase it.

This is specifically addressed in some detail in the following Link:

7 (so called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – Refuted and Debunked (PDF)

Specifically see Point 5. This is answered in detail. The prophecy is yet to pass.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call those claims ignorant.

First of all, egw wrote what she wrote. I wondered why she even came up with that kind of prophecy. Seemed to me at times it was meant as a gimmick to create some atmosphere at the conference. I mean, technically we might use the very same prophecy and preach it to each and every congregation and we will always be right. Right?

I don't think so!

Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding (being ignorant or not).

From what I see the author tries to debunk those so-called ignorant claims by proving that those in their graves can still not see death. If death stands for 2nd death - for whatever reason now. I can accept it for the sake of argument.

My problem however, some will be subject to the seven last plagues. Egw is very specific here, she explicitly mentions the seven last plagues. We can take that as a timeframe. In my understanding the seven last plagues occur before the 2nd coming. And it is during the 2nd coming that resurrection will take place.
So even in this regard, just tell me, how can any of the conferences participants be subject to the seven last plagues?
Aren't the seven last plagues meant for those alive (as in alive proper) during the times of the seven last plagues?

And this goes without taking into account two kinds of resurrection, which according to the bible are 1k years apart of each other. So if someone is subject to the seven last plagues, which resurrection does he or she take part in? Answer that!

 

[BobRyan]

From what I see the author tries to debunk those so-called ignorant claims by proving that those in their graves can still not see death.

Or is it that Jeremiah 18:5-10 is "true", so true in fact that even Jonah cannot be accused of false prophecy?

Conditional prophecy - a fact of scripture:
1 minute ago #15

 

[CaptainToad]

Or is it that Jeremiah 18:5-10 is "true", so true in fact that even Jonah cannot be accused of false prophecy?

What is your point?

 

[BobRyan]

What is your point?

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

 

[CaptainToad]

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

But that doesn't fit into this context at all.

Let me put it this way. God has given us through revelation exact details whats gonna happen and when its gonna happen. Its not like there is suddenly gonna be a third beast or something or a second mark of the beast. Everything was shown to John.
In that regard her prophecy was absolutely misleading to put it mildly.

Lets play with the idea for a second. Let us assume that her prophecy was true at the time - I see no conditions there! It addressed a fixed number of people. The deeds of those people would have no impact on the time of the 2nd coming. The prophecy revealed it would happen while some of them were still alive.
Since that didn't work out, and like I said no conditions there, God must have changed His plan. And thats a big problem because if the plan was changed we cannot believe revelation to still be true either because those plans/revelations might have been changed several times already over the centuries.
You get where this is leading to!
If revelation is true then those things shown to John will happen exactly the way they were shown to him and at exactly their appointed time. Revelation is FINAL.

 

[BobRyan]

What is your point?

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

But that doesn't fit into this context at all.
Let me put it this way. God has given us through revelation exact details whats gonna happen and when its gonna happen.

On the contrary he has not told us the day and hour of His appearing and Jonah was telling the future of Ninevah - right down to the time.

4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

No "if" no "maybe"

Its not like there is suddenly gonna be a third beast or something or a second mark of the beast. Everything was shown to John.

Indeed there will be the mark of the beast and there will be the second coming ... the close of probation. The message God gave John and that God gave to Ellen White does not change in that regard.

But like Jonah and like Moses who promised Israel the land of Canaan rather than "die in the desert" - we have time element dependent prophetic statements about their future... that did not happen. Yet because of Jeremiah 18:5-10 they are not false prophets.

Let us assume that her prophecy was true at the time - I see no conditions there! It addressed a fixed number of people.

yep - no conditions mentioned in the case of Moses, and Jonah and the statement Ellen White gave. It is Jeremiah 18 telling us that all the promises of blessing and of curse are alike conditional.

You get where this is leading to! If revelation is true then those things shown to John will happen exactly the way they were shown to him and at exactly their appointed time. .

I assume the effort to ignore the two cases to the contrary (Moses and Jonah) is not all that difficult.

but you have to admit - it would be hard for the rest of us to ignore those examples of how the Jeremiah 18:5-10 principles plays out in prophecy.

=============================

For the sake of the record -- this is not my thread/topic. I prefer to just stick with the Bible when discussing details with those who do not accept the gift of prophecy that God gave Ellen White because even if the irrefutable case I make here is fully accepted it does not solve the problem being discussed in the more general sense. It just removes objection to "one scenario".

 

[CaptainToad]

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.



On the contrary he has not told us the day and hour of His appearing and Jonah was telling the future of Ninevah - right down to the time.

4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

No "if" no "maybe"



Indeed there will be the mark of the beast and there will be the second coming ... the close of probation. The message God gave John and that God gave to Ellen White does not change in that regard.

But like Jonah and like Moses who promised Israel the land of Canaan rather than "die in the desert" - we have time element dependent prophetic statements about their future... that did not happen. Yet because of Jeremiah 18:5-10 they are not false prophets.




yep - no conditions mentioned in the case of Moses, and Jonah and the statement Ellen White gave. It is Jeremiah 18 telling us that all the promises of blessing and of curse are alike conditional.



I assume the effort to ignore the two cases to the contrary (Moses and Jonah) is not all that difficult.

but you have to admit - it would be hard for the rest of us to ignore those examples of how the Jeremiah 18:5-10 principles plays out in prophecy.

I think you are twisting things on purpose!
Jonah's and egw's prophecy are totally different.
Like I said God knows the hour but doesn't change it.

Let me ask you how many times did the Sda preach an imminent 2nd coming? Be honest!

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

On the contrary he has not told us the day and hour of His appearing and Jonah was telling the future of Ninevah - right down to the time.

4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

No "if" no "maybe"

But like Jonah and like Moses who promised Israel the land of Canaan rather than "die in the desert" - we have time element dependent prophetic statements about their future... that did not happen. Yet because of Jeremiah 18:5-10 they are not false prophets
...
I assume the effort to ignore the two cases to the contrary (Moses and Jonah) is not all that difficult.

but you have to admit - it would be hard for the rest of us to ignore those examples of how the Jeremiah 18:5-10 principles plays out in prophecy.
.

I think you are twisting things on purpose!

You are being a bit too optimistic in supporting your objection without any evidence for it given the Jer 18 problem your suggestions are up against.

To come to another denomination's board and make an objective case you can't simply "circle the wagons" around your stated objection - all Bible evidence to the contrary not withstanding. That is not very compelling.

Jonah's and egw's prophecy are totally different.

On the contrary: Moses, Jonah and Ellen White are reporting statements God made regarding the future of individuals they were speaking to -- and the Jeremiah 18:5-10 most certainly and obviously applied. This is irrefutable.

Let me ask you how many times did the Sda preach an imminent 2nd coming? Be honest!

We always preach an imminent 2nd coming. Same as the NT authors to a certain extent.

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

 

[CaptainToad]

I t

You are being a bit too optimistic in supporting your objection without any evidence for it given the Jer 18 problem your suggestions are up against.

To come to another denomination's board and make an objective case you can't simply "circle the wagons" around your stated objection - all Bible evidence to the contrary not withstanding. That is not very compelling.



On the contrary: Moses, Jonah and Ellen White are reporting statements God made regarding the future of individuals they were speaking to -- and the Jeremiah 18:5-10 most certainly and obviously applied. This is irrefutable.




We always preach an imminent 2nd coming. Same as the NT authors to a certain extent.

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

I think you aren't getting it!

A small tip first: things aren't irrefutable because you say they are irrefutable. It just makes you look silly and your point gets weaker.

But I digress.

Again, imagine I told you, you will die within 40 days because of your sins and you repent and dont die. That's nice!

But imagine I told you, you will still be alive during the 2nd coming, God said so.

Now imagine you die and there was no 2nd coming yet. Where does that put me?

Of course, you might now say you might have sinned and God decided for you to not experience the 2nd coming alive. Thats fair! Although, I still wonder why a prophet would even receive such a prophecy with no implications.
The problem gets hairy when, lets say you died at age 99 and even 50 years after your demise nothing happens.

Get my point now?

The bottomline is, egw declared the 2nd coming to take place while at least some of those people were alive. It's relatively obvious. She connected one timeframe with another. The 2nd coming is a fixed date, always been.

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that Jeremiah 18:5-10 declares a principle for prophetic messages from God where the blessings and the curses are alike ... conditional.

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

On the contrary he has not told us the day and hour of His appearing and Jonah was telling the future of Ninevah - right down to the time.

Jonah
4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

No "if" no "maybe"

But like Jonah and like Moses who promised Israel the land of Canaan rather than "die in the desert" - we have time element dependent prophetic statements about their future... that did not happen. Yet because of Jeremiah 18:5-10 they are not false prophets
...
I assume the effort to ignore the two cases to the contrary (Moses and Jonah) is not all that difficult.

but you have to admit - it would be hard for the rest of us to ignore those examples of how the Jeremiah 18:5-10 principles plays out in prophecy.
.

I think you are twisting things on purpose!

You are being a bit too optimistic in supporting your objection without any evidence for it given the Jer 18 problem your suggestions are up against.

To come to another denomination's board and make an objective case you can't simply "circle the wagons" around your stated objection - all Bible evidence to the contrary not withstanding. That is not very compelling.

Jonah's and egw's prophecy are totally different.

On the contrary: Moses, Jonah and Ellen White are reporting statements God made regarding the future of individuals they were speaking to -- and the Jeremiah 18:5-10 most certainly and obviously applied. This is irrefutable.

Let me ask you how many times did the Sda preach an imminent 2nd coming? Be honest!

We always preach an imminent 2nd coming. Same as the NT authors to a certain extent.

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I t
I think you aren't getting it!

You asked for the evidence I gave it to you.

But imagine I told you, you will still be alive during the 2nd coming, God said so.

Imagine I said "WE who are alive and remain at the second coming will not get there ahead of those who have already died".

Now imagine you die and there was no 2nd coming yet. Where does that put that statement?

Get my point now?

You appear to be claiming this illustration is too difficult to follow or is not what Paul was claiming in 1 Thess 4 as if that is a "given" for Paul's contemporaries.

Moses who promised Israel the land of Canaan rather than "die in the desert"

Jonah's message was not "REPENT - or else God will wipe out Nineveh" -- but because of the Jeremiah 18 principle that is exactly what the message was -- in effect.

What part of this is at all difficult??

You have free will and are not at all required to look at these Bible examples objectively. You can do as you wish. but you have come to an SDA forum area and are demonstrating a "need" not to look at these Bible examples. I don't deny you your "solution". I am just pointing out that from the POV of an objective unbiased Bible student your need to not look at these examples and see how your claims are running all over them -- is not helping your case with those who do not already share you bias on this point.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We always preach an imminent 2nd coming. Same as the NT authors to a certain extent.

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

HALLELUYAH! Amen. So simple. So True.

 

[CaptainToad]

You are being a bit too optimistic in supporting your objection without any evidence for it given the Jer 18 problem your suggestions are up against.

To come to another denomination's board and make an objective case you can't simply "circle the wagons" around your stated objection - all Bible evidence to the contrary not withstanding. That is not very compelling.



On the contrary: Moses, Jonah and Ellen White are reporting statements God made regarding the future of individuals they were speaking to -- and the Jeremiah 18:5-10 most certainly and obviously applied. This is irrefutable.




We always preach an imminent 2nd coming. Same as the NT authors to a certain extent.

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.



You asked for the evidence I gave it to you.



Imagine I said "WE who are alive and remain at the second coming will not get there ahead of those who have already died".

Now imagine you die and there was no 2nd coming yet. Where does that put that statement?

Get my point now?

Imagine Paul didn't know everything and said what he believed was true but turned out not to.

Saying "I was shown by a heavenly messenger" is an entirely different thing.

And just to finish things off because we arent getting anywhere anyway, if egw's prophecy is not a false prophecy then the whole concept of a false prophecy doesn't exist and anyone can prophesy anything, claiming its from God and if it doesn't come true it fall under Jeremiah. Do you even realize that? Irrefutable or not.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
.

Imagine Paul didn't know everything and said what he believed was true but turned out not to.
.

Hmmm. so you want us to imagine that after Paul saying
1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul then said
2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


Imagine that after Jonah said "YET FORTY DAYS and Ninevah will be destroyed"...

Jonah then said

Jonah 4: 1 "But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life"

Imagine that after Moses reports that God said " 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites " Ex 3:8

And then after that we find this
Num 14:
22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it

28 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above.

===========================

The very thing that same folks claim - could never happen

 

[CaptainToad]

Hmmm. so you want us to imagine that after Paul saying
1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul then said
2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


Imagine that after Jonah said "YET FORTY DAYS and Ninevah will be destroyed"...

Jonah then said

Jonah 4: 1 "But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life"

Imagine that after Moses reports that God said " 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites " Ex 3:8

And then after that we find this
Num 14:
22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it

28 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above.

===========================

The very thing that same folks claim - could never happen

Again twisting words and showing some prooftexts out of context.

So, am I right in the understanding, you claim Pauls text about remaining alive is the same as egws vision about the conference people remaining alive?

 

[Gary K]

Again twisting words and showing some prooftexts out of context.

So, am I right in the understanding, you claim Pauls text about remaining alive is the same as egws vision about the conference people remaining alive?

That is quite an assertion. Where is the scriptural evidence to support the assertion?

 

[CaptainToad]

That is quite an assertion. Where is the scriptural evidence to support the assertion?

Assertion? In what way?

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 22: "20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
.

Imagine Paul didn't know everything and said what he believed was true but turned out not to.
.

Hmmm. so you want us to imagine that after Paul saying
1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul then said
2 Tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


Imagine that after Jonah said "YET FORTY DAYS and Ninevah will be destroyed"...

Jonah then said

Jonah 4: 1 "But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life"

Imagine that after Moses reports that God said " 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites " Ex 3:8

And then after that we find this
Num 14:
22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, 23 they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it

28 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above.

===========================

The very thing that same folks claim - could never happen

Again twisting words and showing some prooftexts out of context.

So, am I right in the understanding, you claim Pauls text about remaining alive is the same as egws vision about the conference people remaining alive?

Did you find one of those texts "unclear"??

 

[Gary K]

Assertion? In what way?

You don't know what an assertion is?