Ellen G White and SoP/ToJ references, for much error prevails ...

[CaptainToad]

It's a very fundamental point is the 2nd coming can indeed be hastened or not. I believe it can't!

When I look at it in the context of the whole world I don't think the so-called blue laws would have had an impact in the 1880s. You need to understand the whole context. The sda was very small the 1840-1850s and yet, in regard to the shut door doctrine they believed to be the only ones to be God's people. Sounds crazy but thats how it was. With time they admitted more people into the fold yet believing the 2nd coming was imminent.
Keep in mind we are talking about hundreds of sdas bot thousands at the time. In the context of the whole world population the expression very small might be an overstatement.
Even at the time of the worm prophecy, I think they didn't even enter Europe with their message. Even if they did it must have been a handful of followers at best at the time.

So what kind of readiness are we talking here that might bring about the 2nd coming?

The thing that I was trying to point out to Bob was, there is different kinds of conditions and prophecies. You cannot compare Niniveh or Moses to the 2nd coming or revelation or the worm prophecy.

Revelation is what is to come to pass. It is not in any way conditional. It is the revelation of how things are gonna unfold. God knows the future. He knew it before the foundation of the world. Everything in revelation has its appointed time. Each actor has its appointed role. Everything is how God has forseen it.
Take those 7 kings for example! Would that be the same seven kings in 1880s compared to if the 2nd coming was happening as we speak or in a hundred years?
Moreover, we have the book of the Lamb of revelation 13:8.
The names of people saved have been written down before the foundation of the world. Which further indicates an appointed time for the 2nd coming set before the foundation of the world.

What God wants done, He can do as quickly as He needs to. It us very much dependent on certain things that must come to pass---however, those things can be made to happen quickly, Somewhere she says---"the last movements will be rapid ones."
When Jesus is done as our High Priest, He will say "it is done." And that will be that. No more time ---no more changing minds--whatever decisions have been made, will be the final ones.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Be careful how you read this one:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Depending on how you read it---Is it the names of the saved that are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world--or is it the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I have always read that as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. For it was His decision from before the world was created to give His life for us.[/QUOTE]



Revelation 17:8 gives us further insight on how to read it

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Dave-W]

So you believe the 2nd coming is conditional when it comes to timing. I don't!

Jesus returns when His timing is right, not ours.

I would ask you to consider this passage (and its counterpart in Luke)

Matt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Who was "Jerusalem?" (IOW who was He addressing?)
Where does our Lord step down when He returns to earth? (Zech 14:4)
What was the cultural significance of "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?"

 

[CaptainToad]

I would ask you to consider this passage (and its counterpart in Luke)

Matt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Who was "Jerusalem?" (IOW who was He addressing?)
Where does our Lord step down when He returns to earth? (Zech 14:4)
What was the cultural significance of "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?"

I would add romans 11:25 to this

 

[mmksparbud]

What God wants done, He can do as quickly as He needs to. It us very much dependent on certain things that must come to pass---however, those things can be made to happen quickly, Somewhere she says---"the last movements will be rapid ones."
When Jesus is done as our High Priest, He will say "it is done." And that will be that. No more time ---no more changing minds--whatever decisions have been made, will be the final ones.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Be careful how you read this one:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Depending on how you read it---Is it the names of the saved that are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world--or is it the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I have always read that as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. For it was His decision from before the world was created to give His life for us.

Revelation 17:8 gives us further insight on how to read it

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.[/QUOTE]

I still can't see Rev 13 as other than the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for that is exactly as it was decided. Rev 17 is obviously about the names written --split the difference--perhaps it is both??! For there is the thought that we were all written in the book of life, for all are saved through the cross---but then the names get stricken out of the book as we sin or do not accept His sacrifice.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[mmksparbud]

I would ask you to consider this passage (and its counterpart in Luke)

Matt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Who was "Jerusalem?" (IOW who was He addressing?)
Where does our Lord step down when He returns to earth? (Zech 14:4)
What was the cultural significance of "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?"

The Jews---Messiah---I am not a believer in that Jesus will reign on this earth for 1000 years. It's a dead world for when He comes the 2nd time---
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Jesus will not step foot on this sinful planet until it is remade, cleansed of all sin.

 

[Dave-W]

Jesus will not step foot on this sinful planet until it is remade, cleansed of all sin.

So you do not believe the plain meaning of Zech 14?

 

[mmksparbud]

So you do not believe the plain meaning of Zech 14?

I believe Jesus will one day set foot on Mt Zion and it will cleave in 2. But on a remade earth and He will reign forever. I know what Zach 14 says. I know what 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 say. Why would Jesus reign on a destroyed earth? And why would there be a Feast of Tabernacles? According to Numbers 29:12-34, over the course of the seven-day festival some 70 bulls, 14 rams, 98 lambs and seven male goats are to be sacrificed, in addition to grain and drink offerings for each one. All animal sacrifices were done away with at the cross. Nope---not happening.

 

[Dave-W]

All animal sacrifices were done away with at the cross. Nope---not happening.

Those that had to do with sins - yes. But not all sacrifices were about sins.

 

[mmksparbud]

Those that had to do with sins - yes. But not all sacrifices were about sins.

It still is sacrificing and none are needed after Jesus died on the cross!

 

[Dave-W]

It still is sacrificing and none are needed after Jesus died on the cross!

I will have to leave that train of thought, as to say any more would really be too much, going into Messianic theology instead of SDA theology.

 

[CaptainToad]

Revelation 17:8 gives us further insight on how to read it

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I still can't see Rev 13 as other than the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for that is exactly as it was decided. Rev 17 is obviously about the names written --split the difference--perhaps it is both??! For there is the thought that we were all written in the book of life, for all are saved through the cross---but then the names get stricken out of the book as we sin or do not accept His sacrifice.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.[/QUOTE]

I have witnessed an Sda pastor explicitly pointing out the "error" of rev. 13:8 during one sermon. Needless to say he made no mention of rev 17:8. In situations like these one can't help thinking only texts which fit the narrative are taken into consideration.

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world makes sense, as a human being, though, I cannot say for certain. In regard to rev. 17:8 there is no doubt.

Wether a name can be blotted out doesn't change the fact that it has been written before the foundation of the world and even therefore a conditional 2nd coming is out of the equasion, and so is the worm prophecy.

 

[mmksparbud]

I still can't see Rev 13 as other than the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, for that is exactly as it was decided. Rev 17 is obviously about the names written --split the difference--perhaps it is both??! For there is the thought that we were all written in the book of life, for all are saved through the cross---but then the names get stricken out of the book as we sin or do not accept His sacrifice.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I have witnessed an Sda pastor explicitly pointing out the "error" of rev. 13:8 during one sermon. Needless to say he made no mention of rev 17:8. In situations like these one can't help thinking only texts which fit the narrative are taken into consideration.

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world makes sense, as a human being, though, I cannot say for certain. In regard to rev. 17:8 there is no doubt.

Wether a name can be blotted out doesn't change the fact that it has been written before the foundation of the world and even therefore a conditional 2nd coming is out of the equasion, and so is the worm prophecy.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are blotted out. So there is still a decision that has to be made and it is Jesus that makes it.
The 2nd coming is indeed conditional and only the Father knows when it will be. If it was set in stone---all the angels and Jesus would know. And I keep my believe in the worm prophecy was definitely conditional and I gave the passage for that, but I didn't think you would accept it. You do not want to come back---yet. God has given you no other church, that is enough and I do hope you are not led astray by any false indications that there is another. God waited over 25 years for me. But there will come a time when He will say, He will wait no longer. God bless.

 

[CaptainToad]

I have witnessed an Sda pastor explicitly pointing out the "error" of rev. 13:8 during one sermon. Needless to say he made no mention of rev 17:8. In situations like these one can't help thinking only texts which fit the narrative are taken into consideration.

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world makes sense, as a human being, though, I cannot say for certain. In regard to rev. 17:8 there is no doubt.

Wether a name can be blotted out doesn't change the fact that it has been written before the foundation of the world and even therefore a conditional 2nd coming is out of the equasion, and so is the worm prophecy.

Yes, they are blotted out. So there is still a decision that has to be made and it is Jesus that makes it.
The 2nd coming is indeed conditional and only the Father knows when it will be. If it was set in stone---all the angels and Jesus would know. And I keep my believe in the worm prophecy was definitely conditional and I gave the passage for that, but I didn't think you would accept it. You do not want to come back---yet. God has given you no other church, that is enough and I do hope you are not led astray by any false indications that there is another. God waited over 25 years for me. But there will come a time when He will say, He will wait no longer. God bless.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! Is was definitely nice 'talking' to you. You seem like a nice person!

As for coming back, there is much more than just the worm prophecy. But I am not gonna go into detail here as this an sda form and not the place.

I believe in God's guidance and if I ever come back it would have to be him who makes me do it. So far nothing has happened in that direction, though.

God bless you!

 

[Dave-W]

Wether a name can be blotted out doesn't change the fact that it has been written before the foundation of the world

Names written (saved) before creation does not line up with what Paul taught in Romans 11, that gentiles are born on a wild olive tree of destruction and need to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree of salvation.

 

[CaptainToad]

Names written (saved) before creation does not line up with what Paul taught in Romans 11, that gentiles are born on a wild olive tree of destruction and need to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree of salvation.

I don't understand why you would think this way. There is two verses in revelation pointing out the same thing.
Our Lord is the Lord Almighty. He is omniscient, why wouldn't He have our names written down before the creation?
Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us before the foundation of the world.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't understand why you would think this way. There is two verses in revelation pointing out the same thing.
Our Lord is the Lord Almighty. He is omniscient, why wouldn't He have our names written down before the creation?
Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us before the foundation of the world.

He chose all men to be saved, He paid the price for everyone to be saved---but they have to accept it, and live it otherwise their names are blotted out.