Ellen G. White a Walking Contradiction?

[dóxatotheó]

Dan 10:13 (NIV) But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
Dan 10:21 (NIV) ...but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Dan 12:1 (NIV) “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

EGW: "For three weeks Gabriel wrestled with the powers of darkness, seeking to counteract the influences at work on the mind of Cyrus; and before the contest closed, Christ Himself came to Gabriel's aid." Prophets and Kings, p.572
Is she calling God an Angel?

"But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p.1129.
This one is self explanatory she said Christ wasn't Lord Almighty.


EGW: "It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

EGW: "In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

EGW: "Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.
She said Satan is our scapegoat bible teaches differently heavily why does she say this?

EGW: "Under the MOSAIC system ... the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh JEWISH month. ... The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October ..." —The Great Controversy, p. 400.
September (Tishri): Started on September 14, 1844

1 Rosh Hashanah—New Year (September 14, 1844)
2 Second Day of Rosh Hashanah (September 15, 1844)
10 Yom Kippur—Day of Atonement (September 24, 1844—starting the evening of September 23, 1844)

This shows the "Atonement" date was September not October was she Contradicting herself again?

EGW: ANGEL "Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: 'If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?'" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 74).

BIBLE: Gen 4:6 - 7, (NIV) 6Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
SO an angel not the LORD very interesting.
EGW: ANGEL "An angel is seen by the scoffing multitude descending from heaven clothed with brightness like the lightning. He closes that massive outer door, and takes his course upward to heaven again" (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 68, written in 1864).

EGW: GOD "... God had shut it, and God alone could open it" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 98, written in 1890).

BIBLE: GOD Gen 7:16 (NIV) 16The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
She contradicted herself correct?
EGW:"To be redeemed means to cease from sin" (Review and Herald, vol. 77, No. 39, p. 1, September 25, 1900).
What do you mean Ellen that out rite is against the entirety of the bible right?
Adventist may respond and defend they prophetess I agree this thread may seem an attack to the faith but it is not they are comments and questions from various quotes responds arent needed but can help reconcile the vast majority of contradictory statements Ellen has said.

 

[tall73]

EGW: "It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

EGW: "In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

EGW: "Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.
She said Satan is our scapegoat bible teaches differently heavily why does she say this?

A few more quotes from Ellen White on the scapegoat:

Satan is a diligent student of the Scriptures. He understands what is symbolized by the Jewish service. He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins. Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 16 (1901)


Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.
Patriarchs and Prophets


Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
Lt 8, 1850

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What do you mean Ellen that out rite is against the entirety of the bible right? ......
I agree this thread may seem an attack to the faith

I would say it is fair because in the Old Adventist theology (before they went super Ecumenical friendly in the mid to late 70s and revised their Church teaching to be accepted by American Evangelicals) "the Mark of the beast" was worship on Sunday. That was proof of pagan corruption etc. and you can still see that influence in present day Adventist theology on the board, where there is no reasoning with them about the "Lord's Day" aka day of the Resurrection falling on Sunday, the 8th day typology etc. they expect/insist everything to be nude scripture etc. and will not accept this scriptural teaching based on ancient Church history, Biblical typologies etc.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Dan 10:13 (NIV) But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
Dan 10:21 (NIV) ...but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Dan 12:1 (NIV) “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

EGW: "For three weeks Gabriel wrestled with the powers of darkness, seeking to counteract the influences at work on the mind of Cyrus; and before the contest closed, Christ Himself came to Gabriel's aid." Prophets and Kings, p.572
Is she calling God an Angel?

"But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p.1129.
This one is self explanatory she said Christ wasn't Lord Almighty.


EGW: "It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." The Great Controversy, page 422.

EGW: "In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit." The Great Controversy, page 658."

EGW: "Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him." Early Writings, pp. 294, 295.
She said Satan is our scapegoat bible teaches differently heavily why does she say this?

EGW: "Under the MOSAIC system ... the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh JEWISH month. ... The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October ..." —The Great Controversy, p. 400.
September (Tishri): Started on September 14, 1844

1 Rosh Hashanah—New Year (September 14, 1844)
2 Second Day of Rosh Hashanah (September 15, 1844)
10 Yom Kippur—Day of Atonement (September 24, 1844—starting the evening of September 23, 1844)

This shows the "Atonement" date was September not October was she Contradicting herself again?

EGW: ANGEL "Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: 'If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?'" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 74).

BIBLE: Gen 4:6 - 7, (NIV) 6Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
SO an angel not the LORD very interesting.
EGW: ANGEL "An angel is seen by the scoffing multitude descending from heaven clothed with brightness like the lightning. He closes that massive outer door, and takes his course upward to heaven again" (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 68, written in 1864).

EGW: GOD "... God had shut it, and God alone could open it" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 98, written in 1890).

BIBLE: GOD Gen 7:16 (NIV) 16The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
She contradicted herself correct?
EGW:"To be redeemed means to cease from sin" (Review and Herald, vol. 77, No. 39, p. 1, September 25, 1900).
What do you mean Ellen that out rite is against the entirety of the bible right?
Adventist may respond and defend they prophetess I agree this thread may seem an attack to the faith but it is not they are comments and questions from various quotes responds arent needed but can help reconcile the vast majority of contradictory statements Ellen has said.

For me I see many people seeking to twist her writings to make them say things they have never said as they do the scriptures in my view. Seen it all before all too often which is sad. Anyhow we are all free to believe as we wish. All are accountable to God come judgement day for the words of God they accept or reject according to John 12:47-48. There is nothing new under the sun. All those who profess to know God killed the prophets that God sent them to warn them of things to come if they refused to repent of their sins. God's people, as a whole either simply either killed the prophets of sought to silence their words. Something to pray about.

Take Care.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 10:13 (NIV) But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
Dan 10:21 (NIV) ...but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Dan 12:1 (NIV) “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

EGW: "For three weeks Gabriel wrestled with the powers of darkness,

There is a guy here who loves "all Ellen White all the time threads" I think he will have more things to contribute to your thread.

 

[BobRyan]

"But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p.1129.
This one is self explanatory she said Christ wasn't Lord Almighty.
.

hmm "man" is not "God almighty on his throne" -- because Jesus is fully God and fully man and yet as

Phil 2 says -
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

That is Jesus telling us that God the Son had become "the man" Christ Jesus after having emptied Himself and so He could say "the Father is greater than I" while on Earth.

===========================

Oh on wait! -- someone might prefer "All Ellen White all the time" as the content for the thread... ok well how about this?


“When Isaiah predicted the birth of Christ he declared, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever" (Isaiah 9:6, 7).” –MR 7, No. 515.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.” –Patriarchs and Prophets. page 35.

“But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness... Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--...There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -S.D.A Bible Commentary, Vol. 5 (1956). pp. 1129, 1130.

 

[dóxatotheó]

hmm "man" is not "God almighty on his throne" -- because Jesus is fully God and fully man and yet as

Phil 2 says -
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

That is Jesus telling us that God the Son had become "the man" Christ Jesus after having emptied Himself and so He cold say "the Father is greater than I" while on Earth.

You are twisting scripture heavily.... When he says “greater” he indicates that his divinity can be equaled to the Father, since he is of the same substance as him, but the Father is greater because the Son accepted a body…The Son’s nature is understood to be less than that of the Father inasmuch as the Son became man not in substance buddy.

When Isaiah predicted the birth of Christ he declared, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever" (Isaiah 9:6, 7).” –MR 7, No. 515.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.” –Patriarchs and Prophets. page 35.

“But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness... Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--...There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -S.D.A Bible Commentary, Vol. 5 (1956). pp. 1129, 1130.

I will agree with the answer of context as this quote is from a friend.

There is a guy here who loves "all Ellen White all the time threads" I think he will have more things to contribute to your thread.

lol

 

[BobRyan]

hmm "man" is not "God almighty on his throne" -- because Jesus is fully God and fully man and yet as

Phil 2 says -
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

That is Jesus telling us that God the Son had become "the man" Christ Jesus after having emptied Himself and so He cold say "the Father is greater than I" while on Earth.

===========================

Oh on wait! -- someone might prefer "All Ellen White all the time" as the content for the thread... ok well how about this?


“When Isaiah predicted the birth of Christ he declared, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever" (Isaiah 9:6, 7).” –MR 7, No. 515.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.” –Patriarchs and Prophets. page 35.

“But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness... Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--...There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -S.D.A Bible Commentary, Vol. 5 (1956). pp. 1129, 1130.

You are twisting scripture heavily....

Quoting scripture texts verbatim that you may find "inconvenient" is not the same as "twisting scripture".

The point remains.

When he says “greater” he indicates that his divinity can be equaled to the Father, since he is of the same substance as him, but the Father is greater because the Son accepted a body…The Son’s nature is understood to be less than that of the Father inasmuch as the Son became man not in substance

Sounds like agreement... not difference. Where you meaning to differ?

=====================

Desire of Ages 663

"Amazed at his dullness of comprehension, Christ asked with pained surprise, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?" Is it possible that you do not see the Father in the works He does through Me? Do you not believe that I came to testify of the Father? "How sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Christ had not ceased to be God when He became man. Though He had humbled Himself to humanity, the Godhead was still His own. Christ alone could represent the Father to humanity, and this representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake." Their faith might safely rest on the evidence given in Christ's works, works that no man, of himself, ever had done, or ever could do. Christ's work testified to His divinity. Through Him the Father had been revealed.

If the disciples believed this vital connection between the Father and the Son, their faith would not forsake them when they saw Christ's suffering and death to save a perishing world. Christ was seeking to lead them from their low condition of faith to the experience they might receive if they truly realized what He was,--God in human flesh. He desired them to see that their faith must lead up to God, and be anchored there. How earnestly and perseveringly our compassionate Saviour sought to prepare His disciples for the storm of temptation that was soon to beat upon them. He would have them hid with Him in God."​

 

[The Liturgist]

But although Christ's glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man...The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one

That is a serious Christological error, and I had no idea EGW or the SDA said it. Can you link me to it? I am hoping that is from an old edition, from before EGW published material which promoted Trinitarianiam.

The specific problem with that statement is that it is ambiguous; it could be Nestorian, and Nestorianism is compatible with the Nicene Creed and the CF.com Statement of Faith, but it could also mean something else. I was under the impression that because of EGW, the SDAs had embraced a fully Nicene, Chalcedonian Trinitarian Christology, so I am really confused by this, even if it is merely a case of Nestorianism (which is Nicene, but I strongly prefer Ephesian/Chalcedonian Christology).

 

[BobRyan]

Desire of Ages 663

"Amazed at his dullness of comprehension, Christ asked with pained surprise, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?" Is it possible that you do not see the Father in the works He does through Me? Do you not believe that I came to testify of the Father? "How sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Christ had not ceased to be God when He became man. Though He had humbled Himself to humanity, the Godhead was still His own. Christ alone could represent the Father to humanity, and this representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake." Their faith might safely rest on the evidence given in Christ's works, works that no man, of himself, ever had done, or ever could do. Christ's work testified to His divinity. Through Him the Father had been revealed.

If the disciples believed this vital connection between the Father and the Son, their faith would not forsake them when they saw Christ's suffering and death to save a perishing world. Christ was seeking to lead them from their low condition of faith to the experience they might receive if they truly realized what He was,--God in human flesh. He desired them to see that their faith must lead up to God, and be anchored there. How earnestly and perseveringly our compassionate Saviour sought to prepare His disciples for the storm of temptation that was soon to beat upon them. He would have them hid with Him in God."​

That is a serious Christological error, and I had no idea EGW or the SDA said it.

When Moses went to the top of the mountain he was told that he could not see God's face and live... a great many people looked at Christ... right in the face.

Phillipians 2 tells us that even though it is the same person - He did not come here in blazing glory as God Almighty - because that would mean we would have had a lot of dead people 2000 years ago. (of course He will do that at His appearing coming up... and then sure enough - there will be lots of dead people on Earth as Rev 19 and Jer 4 point out). According to 2 Thess 1 there will be no lack of lots-of-dead-people at His appearing where He does show up as Almighty God in all of His glory.

Hence this post with its references

hmm "man" is not "God almighty on his throne" -- because Jesus is fully God and fully man and yet as

Phil 2 says -
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

That is Jesus telling us that God the Son had become "the man" Christ Jesus after having emptied Himself and so He could say "the Father is greater than I" while on Earth.

===========================

“When Isaiah predicted the birth of Christ he declared, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever" (Isaiah 9:6, 7).” –MR 7, No. 515.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6.” –Patriarchs and Prophets. page 35.

“But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness... Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--...There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -S.D.A Bible Commentary, Vol. 5 (1956). pp. 1129, 1130.

 

[The Liturgist]

Desire of Ages 663

"Amazed at his dullness of comprehension, Christ asked with pained surprise, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip?" Is it possible that you do not see the Father in the works He does through Me? Do you not believe that I came to testify of the Father? "How sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Christ had not ceased to be God when He became man. Though He had humbled Himself to humanity, the Godhead was still His own. Christ alone could represent the Father to humanity, and this representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake." Their faith might safely rest on the evidence given in Christ's works, works that no man, of himself, ever had done, or ever could do. Christ's work testified to His divinity. Through Him the Father had been revealed.

If the disciples believed this vital connection between the Father and the Son, their faith would not forsake them when they saw Christ's suffering and death to save a perishing world. Christ was seeking to lead them from their low condition of faith to the experience they might receive if they truly realized what He was,--God in human flesh. He desired them to see that their faith must lead up to God, and be anchored there. How earnestly and perseveringly our compassionate Saviour sought to prepare His disciples for the storm of temptation that was soon to beat upon them. He would have them hid with Him in God."​

I don’t see a problem with any of that, Christologically, at first glance. On the other hand:

When Moses went to the top of the mountain he was told that he could not see God's face and live... a great many people looked at Christ... right in the face.

Phillipians 2 tells us that even though it is the same person - He did not come here in blazing glory as God Almighty - because that would mean we would have had a lot of dead people 2000 years ago. (of course He will do that at His appearing coming up... and then sure enough - there will be lots of dead people on Earth as Rev 19 and Jer 4 point out). According to 2 Thess 1 there will be no lack of lots-of-dead-people at His appearing where He does show up as Almighty God in all of His glory.

Hence this post with its references

There are huge problems with that in that it suggests a lack of understanding of the concepts of hypostatic union, communicatio idiomatum and several other important things. It is an extreme Christological error to say that Jesus Christ stopped being God in His incarnation because the cornerstone of Chalcedonian, Miaphysite and Assyrian (Nestorian-influenced semi-Chalcedonian) Christology is that the humanity and divinity of our Lord were united in the incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division.

 

[BobRyan]

1. When Moses went to the top of the mountain he was told that he could not see God's face and live... a great many people looked at Christ... right in the face. - a fact not an opinion.

Phillipians 2 tells us that even though it is the same person - He did not come here in blazing glory as God Almighty because that would mean we would have had a lot of dead people 2000 years ago.

There are huge problems with that in that it suggests a lack of understanding of the concepts of hypostatic union, communicatio idiomatum and several other important things. It is an extreme Christological error

you are free to hold to that extreme view - you have free will - but many of the rest of us note that people were not dropping dead when they looked at Christ - so even though He did not cease to be God - they were not actually getting the full blazing glory view of "God Almighty" since it was veiled in humanity.


(of course He will do that at His appearing coming up... and then sure enough - there will be lots of dead people on Earth as Rev 19 and Jer 4 point out). According to 2 Thess 1 there will be no lack of lots-of-dead-people at His appearing where He does show up as Almighty God in all of His glory.

 

[The Liturgist]

1. When Moses went to the top of the mountain he was told that he could not see God's face and live... a great many people looked at Christ... right in the face. - a fact not an opinion.

Phillipians 2 tells us that even though it is the same person - He did not come here in blazing glory as God Almighty because that would mean we would have had a lot of dead people 2000 years ago.

First of all, the position you are taking here - is it supported by EGW? Because the quotes of her you provided looked correct, whereas this view you are expressing now appears to be completely different and is greatly in error.

Secondly, the problem with your argument is that you simultaneously are failing to understand the Incarnation, and are also effectively denying it. God became man without change, confusion, separation or division. By putting on our human nature, God the Son became visible to us, but He was still God.

The view that you are taking, that He somehow ceased to be God, only to resume being God, is a view that is entirely novel, as far as I am aware, and it is directly contrary to Scripture, because Scripture asserts that God is unchanging. For God the Son to cease to be God, even temporarily, would represent a change in God, and it also has the effect of undermining soteriology, because the whole point of the Incarnation is that, without change, God became man in order to restore and glorify our fallen humanity.

Furthermore, the evidence of our Lord’s continuing Godhood in the incarnation, before and after the Resurrection, is plentiful in Scripture, for He demonstrated Omniscience and Omnipotence and Sovereignty over life and death on numerous occasions, as well as identifying himself as God.

The final undoing of this severe Christological error is the fact that Christ our God remains incarnate even now, for He did not surrender His human nature on the occasion of the Holy Ascension.

you are free to hold to that extreme view - you have free will - but many of the rest of us note that people were not dropping dead when they looked at Christ - so even though He did not cease to be God - they were not actually getting the full blazing glory view of "God Almighty" since it was veiled in humanity.

What extreme view? The decision of the Third Ecumenical Council in Ephesus and the Fourth Ecumenical Council in Chalcedon, and the Christological consensus of the Assyrian, Miaphysite and Chalcedonian churches, which collectively constitute nearly all Christian churches?

Seriously, its not an extreme view when most Christians and most Christian churches agree with it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.

This is complete Nestorianism; in fact, it is more Nestorian than Nestorius, because in the Bazaar of Heraclides, Nestorius endorsed the Council of Chalcedon. This rather is the doctrine that St. Cyril criticized Nestorius for implying when Nestorius denied that the Blessed Virgin Mary was the Theotokos, which led directly to the Council of Ephesus and the Council of Chalcedon, to which nearly all Christians subscribe to directly, or believe in equivalent doctrines, such as Oriental Orthodox miaphysitism or the Christology of Mar Babai the Great followed by the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I find her perplexing. I have one of her books where she comments on a passage in the Bible. She also gives 3 references in the Bible regarding that passage. None of them support what she is claiming. She takes a particular Bible passage then augments it and just MAKES STUFF UP! Much like unhinged conspiracists today. I don't know what fantasyworld she lived in back then but it was quite far from reality. And the Bible. We are warned, aren't we, not to add or take away anything in the Bible? She seemed to gloss over that admonition loudly shouted to us from the rooftops.

Her writing style is curious as well. She loves to show off her writing prose but really says very little. Like someone that takes forever to get to the point. How she could start a religion is beyond belief. Can't people read and see she is just storytelling? If the Bible says A, B and C you don't add D, E and F! You stick with A, B and C.

I've listened to a lot of Doug Bachelor's talks and love his depth, perception and analysis of the Bible. How he can be an Adventist is mysterious. He rarely mentions Ellen White though. Myself I do believe in taking the Sabbath seriously as I see nothing in the New Testament doing away with it. Far from it. Its mentioned over and over, even in Revelation. But we are also instructed not to quarrel over the Sabbath. Probably because people were criminalized in the past for doing something that was an emergency and they were getting intensely dogmatic. After all, Jesus did say, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". And if your animal falls into a ditch on the Sabbath you're expected not to let it die in that ditch. Good thing animals don't fall into ditches every day. Emergencies occur very rarely to most of us. I've found the more an disengage from "the world" on the Sabbath the better my week tends to be. Its not easy though. Its so easy to hop online to see "what you've missed". Of course its never very important! I used to fast every Sabbath and that felt great too. Need to get back into that. Hey, its a good way of saving 1/7th off your food bill!

 

[Richard.20.12]

How could Jesus stop being God and then tell the crowd that "ny Father and I are one"? And several other passages equating Himself to God. I don't get how Adventists can wander so far from the Bible. Apparently they study it a lot. Maybe they just skip some parts! Tis a mystery.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I find her perplexing. I have one of her books where she comments on a passage in the Bible. She also gives 3 references in the Bible regarding that passage. None of them support what she is claiming. She takes a particular Bible passage then augments it and just MAKES STUFF UP! Much like unhinged conspiracists today. I don't know what fantasyworld she lived in back then but it was quite far from reality. And the Bible. We are warned, aren't we, not to add or take away anything in the Bible? She seemed to gloss over that admonition loudly shouted to us from the rooftops.

Her writing style is curious as well. She loves to show off her writing prose but really says very little. Like someone that takes forever to get to the point. How she could start a religion is beyond belief. Can't people read and see she is just storytelling? If the Bible says A, B and C you don't add D, E and F! You stick with A, B and C.

I've listened to a lot of Doug Bachelor's talks and love his depth, perception and analysis of the Bible. How he can be an Adventist is mysterious. He rarely mentions Ellen White though. Probably an embarrassment to him but maybe he is pressured to mention her. Myself I do believe in taking the Sabbath seriously as I see nothing in the New Testament doing away with it. Far from it. Its mentioned over and over, even in Revelation. But we are also instructed not to quarrel over the Sabbath. Probably because people were criminalized in the past for doing something that was an emergency and they were getting intensely dogmatic. After all, Jesus did say, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". And if your animal falls into a ditch on the Sabbath you're expected not to let it die in that ditch. Good thing animals don't fall into ditches every day. Emergencies occur very rarely to most of us. I've found the more an disengage from "the world" on the Sabbath the better my week tends to be. Its not easy though. Its so easy to hop online to see "what you've missed". Of course its never very important! I used to fast every Sabbath and that felt great too. Need to get back into that. Hey, its a good way of saving 1/7th off your food bill!

I would suggest not putting words or thoughts into peoples mouth. Doug Batchelor was my personal pastor for over 20 years before I moved and he does indeed reference Ellen White fondly, he references more on scripture for obvious reasons. We are free to our own opinions but please don’t speak for someone else who has a great love and respect for the very person you claim he thinks is an embarrassment.

Many non Adventist really do not understand Ellen White, thats okay.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How could Jesus stop being God and then tell the crowd that "ny Father and I are one"? And several other passages equating Himself to God. I don't get how Adventists can wander so far from the Bible. Apparently they study it a lot. Maybe they just skip some parts! Tis a mystery.

This is what Adventist believe so you don’t need to guess.

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

 

[Richard.20.12]

Fair enough. I removed the comment on embarrassment. But again, I've heard many of his talks and almost never does he ever reference Ellen White. You say
"Many non Adventist really do not understand Ellen White"
so explain this mystery to me. How its OK for someone to make stuff up and for the flock to be just fine with that. Because most people wouldn't be fine with that. Whether its an Adventist or anyone else. The second people add or take away from the Bible....well you know what it says in Revelation. Its a pretty serious warning as its the last thing God says to us in the Bible.

I find her writing void of depth. She loves to write in flowery prose but has very little to say. Its so tedious reading her because you have to double check everything she says to make sure its scriptural; often its not. The woman lived in an alternate reality where fantasy was just fine to her deluded mind. Its like she read a part of the Bible and thought "Let's see, what can I add to this to make it more readable or more relatable or more whatever is popular at the time". People like her need to be held to the fire and examined and cast out when they so seriously fail any level of scrutiny. Just like so many other false teachers are every day today. I believe its really born of ego. They think they are an authority so its just fine to add stuff. Well it ain't OK to add stuff! Not one jot or tittle. You either respect the Word or you don't. You either use it for your own personal greedy gain or you don't. We should have the same high standard for all Bible teachers (I'd hardly call her a teacher!) and pastors.

I admire the Sabbatical respect of the Adventists (though it shouldn't be dogmatic and we shouldn't let it divide believers). To me its a blessing, a gift from God. When I fail at respecting it it really affects my week Its not good at all because I neglected my opportunity to get closer to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit on that day; that day being special because its not cluttered with all the worries and tasks of the week.

As soon as someone in any group gets a lot of power, watch out. Human pride is sure to take over. We all have our weaknesses and its only the wise that let others withhold them to protect their flock and themselves. Every cult (and the Adventists are most definitely not a cult!) has to have a leader who has unquestionable authority, to whom their flock feels very uncomfortable questioning. You see it all over the world. Always question your leaders and always check what they say against scripture. When they err, call them out and see if they see where they strayed. Or maybe they can show you how you misinterpreted what they said or what the Bible says about the topic. Either way one side is raised up. And that's the whole point.

 

[Richard.20.12]

This is what Adventist believe so you don’t need to guess.

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

Is there any Christian on the planet that doesn't believe this? Its pretty general and basic. Keep in mind all false teachers always describe their group with very unspecific language when introducing themselves to the world. That way they seem non-threatening.

What you should talk about is why some Christians disagree with the Adventists: On what topics, on what they often misunderstand about Adventism or how Adventists believe they have misinterpreted the Bible. Basically tell us both sides as you've heard them expressed. Just don't mention Ellen White please and thank you....LOL. I've read enough fiction in my life.