Elijah Has Come and With Him the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord!

[Timtofly]

That view is contrary to the major Baptist confessions of faith concerning the Ordinance of the Lord’s Supper.

What view? That Jesus never participated in communion in a physical body after the Cross. The point was the physical body used as the blood and body in the wine and bread.

 

[Timtofly]

Doing the same ritual is doing the same ritual...whenever you perform it, it is the same ritual.

No, it is not the doing, it is the remembering.

Paul set the church straight. They were just doing and making "it" the ritual, a mockery.

 

[Timtofly]

I never said he was. However, everyone dies. Everyone has to die. Hebrews 9:27-28...Ecclesiastes 9:2-4...1 Corinthians 15:22...

Yes even those who die in midair during the rapture. Being no more on earth and being in Heaven is a change. Some die, some are just changed. If you want to call the change death, even in mid air, no one is stopping you. Paul said it is appointed unto man once to die. Some will die twice in the lake of fire. Paul also said we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Being appointed to something and actually doing something are separate issues.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, it is not the doing, it is the remembering.

Paul set the church straight. They were just doing and making "it" the ritual, a mockery.

The mockery was that people were not coming prepared...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes even those who die in midair during the rapture. Being no more on earth and being in Heaven is a change. Some die, some are just changed. If you want to call the change death, even in mid air, no one is stopping you. Paul said it is appointed unto man once to die. Some will die twice in the lake of fire. Paul also said we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Being appointed to something and actually doing something are separate issues.

My point was that Malachi implied Eliyahu was still alive, not raptured, and would come back. This was after Eliyahu was taken. No Paul said that those ALIVE will be changed.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No, it is not the doing, it is the remembering.

Paul set the church straight. They were just doing and making "it" the ritual, a mockery.

You do understand what it was all about, don't you? It is a continuing of acceptance of Yeshua until He comes...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

What view? That Jesus never participated in communion in a physical body after the Cross. The point was the physical body used as the blood and body in the wine and bread.

He instituted it, WE continue it...

 

[keras]

Yes even those who die in midair during the rapture. Being no more on earth and being in Heaven is a change. Some die, some are just changed. If you want to call the change death, even in mid air, no one is stopping you. Paul said it is appointed unto man once to die. Some will die twice in the lake of fire. Paul also said we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Being appointed to something and actually doing something are separate issues.

The prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, has nothing to do with a 'rapture'.
It is talking about what will happen at the final Judgment, after the Millennium.
Proved by only then will Death be no more. Revelation 21:1-4

 

[TribulationSigns]

Of course the great and terrible day of the Lord happens at His second coming - all one has to do is compare what scripture says happens at the day of the Lord, with what Jesus does at His return, and it’s blatantly obvious that He didn’t do that during His first visit here.

Shalom.

Show me the verse you believe the "great and terrible day of the Lord" applies to Second Coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Um read Malachi...take your time...when was Eliyahu taken vs when did Malachi write that? Malachi, when he wrote that, was implying that Eliyahu was still alive and would come in the future.

It is you who need to take time studying Scripture and learn to compare Scripture with Scripture and receive what Christ clearly said.

Matthew 17:11-12

• "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
• But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

Restore here is [apokathistemi]. This means Elias (John the Baptist) came to restore in the sense of his being filled with the Holy Spirit to foreshadow Christ in bringing back the old beliefs, righteousness, and obedience to God's laws, which the children of God had fallen away from. Israel was in a state of apostasy before the coming of John to restore, or return the hearts back to God.

Matthew 12:13

• "Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."

In other words, it was made right again. Hence restored [apokathistemi] means, to make sound, to correct, to put in proper order again. That's what John the Baptist did in preparing the people for the FIRST coming of Christ. Just as the prophecy foretold in case you did not read carefully:

Malachi 4:5-6

• "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
• And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

Indeed, in speaking of the birth of John the Baptist, God confirms this fulfillment, unambiguously.

Luke 1:15-17

• "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
• And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
• And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Not as Elijah physically, but in the Spirit and power of Elijah. Which is in the Spirit of Christ. This is the restoration of John. This has ALREADY fullfilled! Christ said that. You do not receive it. Your denial is not with me, but the very Word of God quoted above. This proves your error. John the Baptist did turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Again, illustrating that the restoration of Israel is spiritual, and has NOTHING whatsoever to do with restoring or rebuilding the literal nation...or the physical return of Elijah before the Second Coming. Sorry!

You need to note that before John the Baptist, Israel (which was the representation of the Kingdom of God on earth) was in apostasy, harboring erroneous doctrines, their Kingdom expectations were worldly, and their views and conduct was hypocritical. John came with correction and was used of God as a vessel of reformation, the forebearer of the true restoring that would follow in Christ.

Luke 3:16

• "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:"

Christ came with the true cleansing that the water John used merely symbolized! Get it?! He was the true restoration, that John's restoration was the harbinger of. Christ truly turned the hearts of the children to the fathers. He gave them a new heart in order to do so. Selah!

So, please...it is so sad that so many, like you, even today do not understand the meaning of this and whine about "spiritualizing." Just as some did not understand when Christ spoke of it.

Matthew 9:12-13

• "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
• But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Learn what that it means! The healing in His wings is what restores one to good health. Sin is equated with sickness (Spiritualizing), and thus salvation with the healing of that spiritual sickness. Likewise, when John the Baptist called the people to repent, he was going forth in an effort to "restore" all things to the righteousness of former times. To make crooked things straight. To make reconciliation with God. Turned the hearts of the fathers to the children. Rebuked the disobedient into the wisdom of the just. To make ready a people prepared for the Lord. In other words, calling to repentance the people, that they must get right with God. That is the only true restoration of the Kingdom to Israel. And it can only be in Christ. Hello?! John ALREADY did these things! At the First Coming!

Shame on you for assuming that Malachi was talking about Second Coming after Christ, Himself, who has said in SCRIPTURE that Elijah has ALREADY come through John...in the spirit and power of Elijah! Matthew 17:11-12. You need to read that verse over and over.

 

[coronawatching]

Thanks for sharing another quote from Jesus. It's very helpful. I'll let Paul off the hook on that one.

"I'll let Paul off the hook on that one."

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Luke 1:15-17

• "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
• And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
• And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Not as Elijah physically, but in the Spirit and power of Elijah. Which is in the Spirit of Christ. This is the restoration of John. This has ALREADY fullfilled! Christ said that. You do not receive it.

Again, you say: Not as Elijah physically, but in the Spirit and power of Elijah. So WHY are you arguing with me?!?! It is the same thing I said! Luke 1:15-17, John was a nazarite.

 

[chad kincham]

Show me the verse you believe the "great and terrible day of the Lord" applies to Second Coming.

Matthew 25:1 gives the account of Jesus’ wedding supper, and in verse 13 let’s us know that His wedding includes His second coming.


That establishes that His return includes the wedding supper.


Revelation 19:6 is the wedding supper, followed immediately by His return in verse 11, wherein He judges and makes war and He does this:


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


He uses the sword from the above text to:


Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Thus at His second coming, He makes war, and brings a sword, God’s fierceness and wrath, and smites the nations.


In 2Thessalonians 1:7-10 Under the chapter titled ‘The Judgment at Christ's Coming’ Jesus returns with flaming fire, and takes vengeance on evil doers.


In the next chapter - unless you believe Paul jumps topics - he equates the day of the Lord with the second coming of Jesus, in 2Thessalonians 2:1-2.


The Day of the Lord comes in Zechariah 14:1-2 as Jerusalem is being attacked and destroyed by armies of many nations - and Jesus returns in verses 3-5 and ends up destroying those armies.


In Isaiah 13:6 the Day of the Lord comes with destruction from the almighty...


with wrath and fierce anger, destroying sinners vs. 9...


and punishes the world for evil and the wicked for their sins vs. 11...


Jesus does the same things at His second coming that occur in the Day of the Lord - and Zechariah 14 and 2Thessalonians 2 put the second coming of Jesus, and the Day of the Lord together.


Hopefully that answers your query.


Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

The prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, has nothing to do with a 'rapture'.
It is talking about what will happen at the final Judgment, after the Millennium.

In that passage we have the last trump, and a mystery involved in those events.

In Revelation 10 it says that as the 7th angel is about to sound, which is the last trump found in Revelation, the mystery shall be accomplished.

Then in Revelation 11:15 the last trump is blown, and Jesus returns to earth, and sets up His earthly kingdom, because it says:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That’s before the millennium, I do believe.

Shalom.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The very last words of the Old Testament are as follows:

Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse. Malachi 4:5-6​

Please note that these are the very last words of the Old Testament. They describe the coming of the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD and associate it with the coming of Elijah. The Great and Terrible Day of the LORD is assumed by many today to be the final event on earth’s eschatological time clock. But according to Jesus, it has already occurred. In the following statements, Jesus says that John the Baptist was Elijah.

And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. Matthew 11:14 NASB​

And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist. Matthew 17:11-13 NASB​

Because Jesus says something, I take serious note of it. By Jesus making these claims about John the Baptist, and by equating John’s coming with the coming of Elijah, I see no other way to interpret them than to conclude that Jesus was claiming His own coming was in fact the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD. How else can these verses be interpreted?

And if Jesus’ first coming was the Great and terrible Day of the LORD, what on earth are Christians waiting for with respect to His Second Coming? What more great and terrible day can there be than the day God Himself came in the flesh and allowed Himself to be hung on a cross? I find it hard to believe anything else could be done and be more aptly described as Great & Terrible…

You are right about how to interpret Malachi and Matthew here, Jesus means what He says and says what He means. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy concerning the coming of Elijah.

What I find disconcerting, however, is that you seem to be implying that means that there will be no Parousia, that Christ's return in glory at the consummation of history is not true--when, this is very obviously what Scripture teaches and what the Church has always believed.

I think you might be getting hung up on the phrase "great and terrible day of the Lord". I'd suggest that a more broad view approach might be the best here. This day isn't a singular day, but rather speaks of everything that would come to pass with Christ's coming reaching all the way to His return and the consummation of history. That we are, even now, living in the age which is perishing, the last days, the the gasps of something dying. And we have been for the last two thousand years. The New Testament says that they were the last days then with Christ's first coming, and by inference we know that we are still in those last days.

It may simply be that the phrase invokes the notion of a singular, momentous day, something even "apocalyptic"--but rather that day is the time of this age perishing, of the final days of history--those final days having been going on for two thousand years now, and may continue to go on for much longer. This may seem "off", after all, how can a day be over two thousand years? Well, we can remember St. Peter's words, that God is faithful to His promises, Christ will return, but that we should not think of God's timing as though it were ours, as a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. What is a very long time to us is nothing to God, and so all is in accordance with God's purposes. We can remember the Lord's words, that it is not anyone's business to know the times and seasons which God has ordained for His purposes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[swainkas]

You are right about how to interpret Malachi and Matthew here, Jesus means what He says and says what He means. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy concerning the coming of Elijah.

What I find disconcerting, however, is that you seem to be implying that means that there will be no Parousia, that Christ's return in glory at the consummation of history is not true--when, this is very obviously what Scripture teaches and what the Church has always believed.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate them. As for questioning the second coming, there are several things Jesus both did and said that make me wonder about it. I'll be covering them in future threads. Thanks again.

 

[keras]

In that passage we have the last trump, and a mystery involved in those events.

In Revelation 10 it says that as the 7th angel is about to sound, which is the last trump found in Revelation, the mystery shall be accomplished.

Then in Revelation 11:15 the last trump is blown, and Jesus returns to earth, and sets up His earthly kingdom, because it says:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That’s before the millennium, I do believe.

Shalom.

But the actual Last Trumpet sound will be to raise all the dead for them to stand before God on His Great White Throne. AFTER the Millennium.

As Paul says; there will be some still alive at that time and provided their names are found in the Book of Life, they will be changed in an instant into immortal beings, along with all the dead saints, from Adam, Noah, David, until todays faithful righteous people.

 

[swainkas]

That’s a huge error, which leads down the rabbit-hole of the JWO movement, and also, it is contrary to the words spoken by Christ our God.

How is it contrary to Christ's words?

He Himself said:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! - Matthew 5:18​

And then says:

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. - Matthew 24:35
​

Jesus hints here at a hierarchy in the written word. Some of it lasting until the end of the earth, while His words last indefinitely.