EEEEVIL Vegans.

[SallyNow]

I was just thinking about the OP and how vegetarians are killing grapes. Perhaps the future generations will also look down on vegetarians as they eat "Chemical Swirls! - Made from 100% inorganic compounds!". If the world will last long enough, I can see it happening.

For the most part, cows live the good life. Everytime I drive by a farm their resting, lying down on the grass with their cow friends - or munching on some grass - just taking it easy, while us humans have to take care of all their needs, or working the night shift in some hot, dirty factory. True, there are some cows that actually havta do some hard work, but there is a wide variety of living beings that havta do work also. Plus, there are millions of cows that have life because of us humans. There couldnt possibly be as many cows naturally grazing in the wild. Yeah, cows are very pampered all their lives - except in the end when they are killed, yet their death is for an honorable cause. Every earthly creature dies sooner or later. Our bodies, atleast - many peoples Spirits will be with God

Plants are generally the laziest - they dont do anything.


God Bless!

You are being sarcastic, right? Yes, there are many farms that treat cows well, and let them roam around. But majority of cows, are kept in cramped, horrible conditions. You do not see these cows, because they are in huge warehouses. It is not a pleasant life at all. Or, to quote fanatiquefou

You haven't seen the same cows being raised for food that I have, then. The vast majority of animals raised for food in this country live short, nasty lives, crowded onto huge feedlots with very little room, pumped full of chemicals, then slaughtered. The peaceful cow grazing on a hillside is a lovely scene, but don't assume that it represents the life of all beef or dairy cows in this country. And do you really think being made into a hamburger at McDonalds so someone can get just that much fatter is an honorable cause?

Hmm, ok. You're right, I don't care if animals suffer. However, I do care if those that have a bond to me suffer. Like pets.

I guess there is a little inconsistency I should address here. Yes, pets are animals. But they are also more than just animals. They are a kind of honorary family member. And family members are important.

If a grape is a cow, then a dog is a cow is a grape. Sorry, you are being more than inconsistent-you are being ridiculous.

A suffering, sentient mammal is a suffering mammal. It does matter if it is a cow or a dog or a pig or a cat. It suffers. There is no need for it. It is cruel, and the fact that so many people think it's okay and even desirable for animals to suffer shocks and scares me.

 

[Dracil]

If a grape is a cow, then a dog is a cow is a grape. Sorry, you are being more than inconsistent-you are being ridiculous.

They're all organisms. As well as all that bacteria on you and inside you that wants you dead so they can have a feast.

A suffering, sentient mammal is a suffering mammal. It does matter if it is a cow or a dog or a pig or a cat. It suffers. There is no need for it. It is cruel, and the fact that so many people think it's okay and even desirable for animals to suffer shocks and scares me.

So? There is no need for it *not* to suffer either. The point is, you have not convinced me that suffering of non-human organisms that I do not have personal bonds with matter. If anything, some people believe the more an animal suffers just before its death, the tastier and more nourishing the meat will be because of the adrenaline and other chemicals they release into their body. - See the practice of eating dog meat in Korea.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that what shocks and scares you is shocking and scary to other people as well.

If one day, we are capable of genetically engineering cattle so their brain are missing the parts that allow them to feel pain and suffering, and maybe even no longer be sentient, does that make it A-OK with you then? It should, since the point you argue so much about (pain, suffering, sentience) no longer applies. If not, then you've admitted that pain, suffering, sentience aren't really all that important.

 

[gaijin178]

I seriously wonder why people who eat meat get so upset with those of us who don't. Wouldn't the idea be that there would be more meat for them? Those of us who don't eat meat....CHOOSE not to do so. Who cares if it is for animal rights issues, health issues, or for religious or spiritual issues? It's a choice, it doesn't hurt anyone. Leave us alone!

 

[UberLutheran]

It's in Romans 14 -- you know, 13 chapters away from the seven verses in Chapter 1 which so many people like to quote (but who seem to forget that the book is 16 chapters long and may have some other important stuff in it).

Romans 14:
1 But receive him who is weak in faith, not for judging thoughts.
2 One man has faith to eat all things, but he who is weak eats herbs.
3 Don't let him who eats despise him who doesn't eat. Don't let him who doesn't eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
4 Who are you who judge the servant of another? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
5 One man esteems one day above another. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn't eat, to the Lord he doesn't eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore Let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 Yet if because of food your brother is grieved, you walk no longer in love. Don't destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Then don't let your good be slandered,
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then, let us follow after things which make for peace, and things whereby we may build one another up.
20 Don't overthrow God's work for food's sake. All things indeed are clean, however it is evil for that man who creates a stumbling block by eating.
21 It is good not to eat meat, drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who doesn't judge himself in that which he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin.
24 Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept in silence through eternal times,
25 but now is revealed, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known to all the nations to obedience of faith;
26 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[The Seeker]

I'll grant you that. It relies on a different set of assumptions about the world than the usual set of assumptions other people make.

And yes, I do actually believe that compassion and altruism towards human beings is essentially a bias towards oneself. Heck, sacrificing yourself isn't bad if it helps the rest of humanity survive (especially those of your offspring), since most of your genes are guaranteed to be passed on. Not all together in one person, but spread out amongst the rest of the population.

But then again, I also feel that to a large extent, consciousness is really nothing more than a rationalization device for the actions made by the unconscious part of your brain.

So why criticise vegetarians for doing the same thing that you do?

 

[Dracil]

Because they deny it and try to act morally superior when they aren't really any different? (This goes double if they're in PETA)

Keep in mind, I'm only attacking the moral arguments for being a vegetarian. If you're doing it out of taste preferences, good for you. If you do it out of health reasons, even better!

But the whole suffering argument = meh to me. (You will also notice that that was the part I focused on when I first jumped into the thread as well)

 

[The Gregorian]

lol. Is this serious? You honestly don't see the difference between infanticide and fruit-eating?

1: Is a grape a fully matured adult plant? No. It's a developing "seed" the plant form of an embryo... a little baby... When you eat a grape YOU'RE EATING A BABY!!!! (a tastey... delicious baby.... so...no, I'm mostly kidding about this thread... there's nothing evil about vegetarians, nore is there ANYTHING wrong with eating vegetables.... I RAVENOUSLY eat those little baby corns. I love them. DIE CORN, DIE!.

Also noodles... are made of like... flour or whatnot... which is a bodypart of a plant of some sort of plant.... and I love me some noodles. I eat chinese food like there's no tomorrow, including rice... another plant.

My point is... Vegetarians say "ohhh those poor cows are ALIVE I can't hurt one... LET ME SLAUGHTER THESE POOR DEFENCELESS FRUITS IN IT'S STEAD" Grapes are alive, cows are alive. I eat them both, MWAHAHAHAHAHA.

Are the grapes and the cow at the same cognitive level?

yes

In what manner are cows raised and slaughtered? Is it humane?

Cows are treated like kings... stupid... stupid kings. They don't have to work for their food like any beast in the wild, nore do they have to be cute like any pet, or fast like any horse, or strong like any... other... beast of burdon... or even pretty like a llama. They are big ol' walking pieces of meat with NO expectations. They live a life without fear of preditor (usually), without having to lift a proverbial finger, they are fed on a daily basis, and kept fat with happiness. Of course, then they're shot in the face and chopped up into bigmacs... but even then, they're bringing a smile to the face of a young child who just got a toy in his happymeal... along with a hunk of flesh. Cows are treated very humane. Now Apples... oh I've seen the horror of the apple orchard. I used to live in yakima... fields and fields as far as you can see of these little things bunched together as tightly as possible... branches fighting for life giving sunlight. These apples are not killed before they are eaten... THEY'RE RIPPED OFF THEIR MOTHER'S WOMB WHILE THEY"RE STILL ALIVE. The mother is given no anastesia... just a brutal... umm... rip... eherm. Anyway... yea... then they're sold and eaten alive... Cows are treated much better than apples.

 

[Azna]

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ's cousin was a vegetarian. And what about that group that was held captive by that evil king who survived on pulse and water? Pulse is vegetables.

Those were God's people. And you're proposing that eating that way is EEEEVIL? Huh...well the Bible would seem to contradict that opinion.

When it comes down to it. What a person eats and why isn't anyones business but their own.

 

[fanatiquefou]

This thread is just becoming ridiculous. Some people are really showing their childishness here. And Dracil? Your position regarding suffering doesn't seem like it would jive well with Catholicism, nor with the One you're supposed to be following. Having the power to cause suffering to any creature, or to manipulate its brain or whatever you suggested, doesn't mean that we should. You honestly don't think that we, as humans created in God's image, have any responsibility towards other aspects of God's creation - such as animals? I'm speaking to you as a fellow believer - do you think there should be a Christian philosophy of animal welfare? How does God feel about the animals he's created? And, since, I hope you would agree, our goal as Christians is to work towards becoming more and more Christlike, how should we respond when we see the "least of these" suffering, whether animal or human?

 

[The Gregorian]

John the Baptist, Jesus Christ's cousin was a vegetarian. And what about that group that was held captive by that evil king who survived on pulse and water? Pulse is vegetables.

Those were God's people. And you're proposing that eating that way is EEEEVIL? Huh...well the Bible would seem to contradict that opinion.

When it comes down to it. What a person eats and why isn't anyones business but their own.

John the baptist was specifically discribed as wearing camel furs as opposed to the normal garb of the time.... when did it say he was a vegetarian? Odd for vegetarians to wear furs so often that it's the first way people discribe them....

And there's nothing wrong with vegetables... I'm purposefully being very silly when I talk about "poor innocent defenceless grapes." although they are defenceless... more so than cows.....

My point is not that vegetables or evil, nore that vegetarians are actually "EVIL" but the bible says we would be given beasts of burdon to eat.... animals...are...for...eating. True... too much meat isn't healthy, and some people may have a condition that doesn't allow them to eat much meat if any at all... this doesn't make them evil.... but people who think that "eating a poor defenceless cow" while simultaniously devouring a live unborn baby... is a little hypocritical (btw, the baby being an unborn grape.). Fact is... look at nature... nothing lives without taking neutrients from something else... even plants need soil rich in decomposing organic material to grow.. it's not just about the sunlight.

 

[Josh Buckman]

okay dude that is not cool vegetarians are not bad not stupid and not lame
if you kill a cow and eat it, it hurts the cow (it feels its death)
if you pop a grape off a vine and eat it it does'nt hurt (its it has no senses no feelings and no9 thoughts)

personally i think this thread should be deleted because that was very rude and offensive to many people including me

 

[The Gregorian]

Just because you can't hear a grape scream doesn't mean it has fealings. Grapes are just as alive as cows.

In fact, it HAS been proven that trees CAN feal pain. I forget the exact changes, but when you cut a trees bark and it bleeds, there are chemical changes throughout the tree as it feals the pain.

Also... cows are generally shot in the back of the head... usually they're dead before they feal anything as their brain stem is very swiftly severed. i.e. no pain. We kill them quickly and cook them before we eat them.... however we devour unborn infant grapes while they're still alive.... that's much worse than the swift death that cows receive.

(again... I'm joking about much of this... vegetarians are NOT evil.... but vegetarians who think eating meat is evil are just as evil themselves because they cause much more death filling up on hundreds of grapes than someone like me who shares ONE cow with hundreds of people.

 

[Dracil]

This thread is just becoming ridiculous. Some people are really showing their childishness here. And Dracil? Your position regarding suffering doesn't seem like it would jive well with Catholicism, nor with the One you're supposed to be following. Having the power to cause suffering to any creature, or to manipulate its brain or whatever you suggested, doesn't mean that we should. You honestly don't think that we, as humans created in God's image, have any responsibility towards other aspects of God's creation - such as animals? I'm speaking to you as a fellow believer - do you think there should be a Christian philosophy of animal welfare? How does God feel about the animals he's created? And, since, I hope you would agree, our goal as Christians is to work towards becoming more and more Christlike, how should we respond when we see the "least of these" suffering, whether animal or human?

Last I checked, plants were also God's creation. Last I also checked, animals were sacrificed. Not plants. How does God feel about the plants He created? What about the pathogens we kill without nary a thought, except whether they'll come back mutated with even more resistances?

What about insects and other bugs? I hope you treat them the same way you do the other animals.

 

[gaijin178]

I'll say it again, I don't think that there is anything wrong with saying that eating meat is morally wrong. It is always argued that morals are relative aren't they? And that Christian morals are different than non-Christian ones. It has to with sentient beings, and animals are sentient beings. Again, I CHOOSE not to eat meat because I don't want to kill any sentient beings to the best of my ability. I am not arrogant about my choice nor do I think that I am any better than anyone. When I choose not to eat meat, I do feel good about myself though personally. My partner, she eats meat and I do not feel like I am better or more moral than her. Really, vegetarians just want to treated no different than anyone else. Yes, some are louder than others about their choice, but so are many other people including other religious and political groups.

 

[The Gregorian]

So what makes a being sentient? The ability to feal pain? Like I said before it's been PROVEN that trees feal pain... cut the bark and chemicals change throughout the tree similar to what happens to us when we feel pain.... yet look at what we do to maple trees... We stab it and make it bleed into a bucked until it's wound closes... then just stab it again, constantly bleeding that poor creature... a maple tree is in CONSTANT anguish...

Or does the creature have to move about to be sentient? Trust me... spending a good 7 years in Yakima washington... home of a large portion of the world's apples... those people spray for bugs like there's no tomorrow... commiting mass genocide against moving, sentient creatures... every apple you eat means the death of hundreds if not thousands of insects... they move just like cows... if you capture them, they squirm and try to free themselves just like cows.... they're JUST as sentient as cows... yet they're OK to kill in countless numbers where cows aren't?

There's nothing wrong with "liking vegetables more than meat" but the problem I have with vegetarians is their just plain false reasons... Ask them why... they'll give you a reason... prove to them that reason makes no sense, and they'll shift to another one.... constantly shifting blame and telling people that they have good reasons that meat is bad... when vegetables are just as bad if not much worse.

think of a logical reason not to eat meat, and I'll stop harassing vegetarians... until then, I won't accept their accusation that eating meat is "wrong."

 

[gaijin178]

A sentient being is one who has conciousness. I understand that your experience in WA has led you to believe that the killing of insects to protect the apples is just as bad or worse in your opinion when some of us choose to not eat meat. That is why many of us vegetarians try to grow our own food or buy food that doesn't have pesticide which kills other sentient beings. Like I said, it's a choice. If you want to harass vegetarians then so be it, but there must be better things to do with your energy and your mind.

 

[The Gregorian]

BUT THERE ISN'T!

I have nothing better to do with my time than to make people think.

Eithe I'll strengthen your opinion, or make you doubt it, either way is good.

As far as organic food goes... even if you're not killing the bugs... you're still devouring a still living unborn baby every time you eat an apple. Apple trees feal pain, and have a conciousness of it's surroundings... ever see a potted plant near a window follow the sun...the whole plant will shift based on where it gets the most sunlight.... you don't think venus fly traps are aware of the fact a fly landed in the trap? Plants are just as sentient as cows... they just don't have faces, vegetarians don't have to face the guild of the fact that all lifeforms must live off organic matter, i.e. something MUST die for you to live.

The difference, is should 100 people share 1 cow, or should one person slaughter 100 unborn grape babys in a single sitting?! And don't even start on corn.... how many corn babys do you think a person can eat at once? I eat a whole can at a time... that must be 400-500 babies... mmmm... delicious unborn children....

(mods... I'm talking about corn, not people children.)

 

[YaddyYaddy]

I just saw a thread talking about vegans/vegetarians... and I didn't want to disrupt it... but I'll make my own:

Vegetarians are bad. Not people who don't eat meat for any particular "real" reason... but people who won't eat cows because they're alive and they don't want to kill life... I have news for you: One cow dies... he'll provide a meal for HUNDREDS of people. How many grapes have to die to fill you up? HMMMM? Not even adults... when you eat a grabe, you take still developing embryo while attached to a disembodied portion of an adult grape vine. While that small baby is still alive you brutally tear it off it's mother's body and place it in your mouth, applying pressure on it until it's little body erupts into juicy goodness in your mouth... you slowly repeat this process one by one slaying it's siblings.

Grapes are JUST as alive as cows. Cows are for eating. If you can kill a grape, you can kill a cow... at least people wait for the cow to be BORN AND COOKED.... they don't sell you cow uterus and let you rip out the embryo while it's still alive and pop it's juicy goodness in your mouth raw. No, that would be sick. So why do it with grapes?

This is nonsense. You can eat wood too ya know? But you dont because you cant digest it well. The same for vegans who dont want to eat meat. And through evolution, we have a planet now that can support more than enough non meat food. The only reason people go hungry is out of social ignorance, usually involving bickering that is rooted in religion.

 

[Zen_Woof]

I don't have issue with people making food choices for moral reasons. I eat meat but try to only eat animals that have been treated and killed humanely. It's the least I can do in my mind ...

As far as plants and other thing having feelings ... did you know broccoli has a rudimentary central nervous system?

Metta,
Z

 

[The Gregorian]

This is nonsense. You can eat wood too ya know? But you dont because you cant digest it well. The same for vegans who dont want to eat meat. And through evolution, we have a planet now that can support more than enough non meat food. The only reason people go hungry is out of social ignorance, usually involving bickering that is rooted in religion.

what does eating wood and starving have to do with anything? 1: yes, you 'can' get all the vitamins you need from eating just plants... you can't get all the protiens you need. if you eat those complimentary proteins, like tofu with... whatever tofu compliments... you'll end up with all the parts of a complete protein.... but vegetarians just plain don't get all the protein they need. Plus with the massive overload of fiber, and nothing to slow their food down, it goes through their system too fast to digest hardly any of it... so you're still not getting as much of your vitamins as you should. That's a reason why vegetarians get to be skin and bones so quick... muscles atrophe, and they get no nutrients to make fat.... they're just starving themselves to death.

nutrition aside.... you're still devouring a creature while it's still alive... least a cow's dead when they cook it... and as far as humanely treated food... you ever see what they put those babies through?! Throw them onto conveyer belts dunk them in chemicles pile them in crates.... imagine a truck filled still mostly alive cows piled up as many as they can stuff into a semi....no room to breath... just one beaten and bloody cow on top of another.... that is NOT acceptable... yet that's what apples go through... apples are BRUTALLY inhumane to eat.