EEEEVIL Vegans.

[The Seeker]

The most efficent way to attain the full range of vitamins and minerals you need to survive is to eat meat. Which likely points to the fact that meat is a pretty important piece of the diet.

Its perfectly possible to be healthy without eating meat, hence doing so is a choice, regardless of whether it happens to be the easier option.

 

[The Seeker]

Eating plants is a choice. Eating at all is a choice (not a wise one, but a choice nonetheless).

You know what I meant, you can survive without meat.

 

[Alecto]

you can survive without meat.

Yes you can. But I fail to see how not eating meat is a better choice since it kinda goes against the way nature designed us

 

[Nymphalidae]

No we don't, eating meat is a choice

Insects and other invertebrates are animals. Billions of them are killed to produce our food. Pesticides, biological control, even the simple act of harvesting spells death for them. Many vegans won't eat honey because they don't want to enslave the poor bees, but it is ok when combines crush thousands of grasshoppers under their wheels.

 

[The Seeker]

Insects and other invertebrates are animals. Billions of them are killed to produce our food. Pesticides, biological control, even the simple act of harvesting spells death for them. Many vegans won't eat honey because they don't want to enslave the poor bees, but it is ok when combines crush thousands of grasshoppers under their wheels.

I think the point is to cause an absolute minimum of death and suffering for the animals. I don't personally agree with vegans but I fail to see how you can describe them as anything but laudable in their aims and certainly not hypocritical.

 

[The Seeker]

Yes you can. But I fail to see how not eating meat is a better choice since it kinda goes against the way nature designed us

Have you ever heard the term "naturalistic fallacy"?

 

[Nymphalidae]

I think the point is to cause an absolute minimum of death and suffering for the animals. I don't personally agree with vegans but I fail to see how you can describe them as anything but laudable in their aims and certainly not hypocritical.

They just aren't doing anything that really makes the world a better place. They act like big heroes when they free animals from research labs, or when they decline to eat a hamburger. But in the end what have they done? Somebody else eats the hamburger instead and the lab just got set back a few years on their research.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I wouldn't look for a point, logic isn't the millitant carnivores' strong point

I'll just assume you were being funny or something.

Re: Lokisdottir post -

My point is that humans are omnivores and not herbivores. The human body is meant to eat meat, not vegetables alone.

 

[KTskater]

My mom is a vegetarian. She doesn't eat meat after having to help her dad butcher her pet cow when she was 11... you wanna eat your cat or dog?
I think my mom has a very valid reason not to eat meat.

 

[Jetgirl]

My mom is a vegetarian. She doesn't eat meat after having to help her dad butcher her pet cow when she was 11... you wanna eat your cat or dog?
I think my mom has a very valid reason not to eat meat.

Well, that's fine for your mom, but myself and millions (more likely billions) have slaughtered their own food and have no problem with it. 4-H kids do it every day.

And yes, I would eat my cat or dog if it came down to that. Frankly there's places in the world where your local butcher shop looks a whole heck of a lot like the local pet store. I'd suggest not living anywhere outside the suburban first world if you're (in general) uncomfortable with meat that doesn't come in a sealed package.

 

[The Seeker]

They just aren't doing anything that really makes the world a better place. They act like big heroes when they free animals from research labs, or when they decline to eat a hamburger. But in the end what have they done? Somebody else eats the hamburger instead and the lab just got set back a few years on their research.

A few points:

• I don't think vegetarianism/veganism "really makes the world a better place", but it is a laudable effort and calling those people who make that particular lifestyle choice "hypocritical and ignorant" is both unfounded and uncalled for
• How many vegans do you actually know personally? Because you seem to be basing your opinions on rediculous, media based stereotypes of vegans.
• Ever hear of supply and demand? The less people who eat hamburgers, the less are produced = less dead cows

 

[In A Perfect World]

I just saw a thread talking about vegans/vegetarians... and I didn't want to disrupt it... but I'll make my own:

Vegetarians are bad. Not people who don't eat meat for any particular "real" reason... but people who won't eat cows because they're alive and they don't want to kill life... I have news for you: One cow dies... he'll provide a meal for HUNDREDS of people. How many grapes have to die to fill you up? HMMMM? Not even adults... when you eat a grabe, you take still developing embryo while attached to a disembodied portion of an adult grape vine. While that small baby is still alive you brutally tear it off it's mother's body and place it in your mouth, applying pressure on it until it's little body erupts into juicy goodness in your mouth... you slowly repeat this process one by one slaying it's siblings.

Grapes are JUST as alive as cows. Cows are for eating. If you can kill a grape, you can kill a cow... at least people wait for the cow to be BORN AND COOKED.... they don't sell you cow uterus and let you rip out the embryo while it's still alive and pop it's juicy goodness in your mouth raw. No, that would be sick. So why do it with grapes?

It was very nice of you to appear smart by drawing this analogy. But I'll make a point of my own:

Cows are more sentient then grapes.

That is all.

 

[SallyNow]

I just saw a thread talking about vegans/vegetarians... and I didn't want to disrupt it... but I'll make my own:

Vegetarians are bad. Not people who don't eat meat for any particular "real" reason... but people who won't eat cows because they're alive and they don't want to kill life... I have news for you: One cow dies... he'll provide a meal for HUNDREDS of people. How many grapes have to die to fill you up? HMMMM? Not even adults... when you eat a grabe, you take still developing embryo while attached to a disembodied portion of an adult grape vine. While that small baby is still alive you brutally tear it off it's mother's body and place it in your mouth, applying pressure on it until it's little body erupts into juicy goodness in your mouth... you slowly repeat this process one by one slaying it's siblings.

Grapes are JUST as alive as cows. Cows are for eating. If you can kill a grape, you can kill a cow... at least people wait for the cow to be BORN AND COOKED.... they don't sell you cow uterus and let you rip out the embryo while it's still alive and pop it's juicy goodness in your mouth raw. No, that would be sick. So why do it with grapes?

Please read this statement:
"I think those who eat beef want to torture cows. I think they get a kick out of it. Meat eaters are bad".
Can you spot what is wrong with it? That's right, it's a strawman! A strawman is when a person of a certain opinion uses a false logic regarding the other side. In this case, most vegans and vegitarians I know do not eat meat for one or both of two reasons: they do not like the taste, and/or, they do not want animals to suffer the torture of many factory farms. I know, the truth is shocking, isn't it.

If you think grapes are "as alive" as cows, I think you need to take a biology lesson ASAP. Both are alive, but so are we. We, then, are no better than cows or grapes. But of course, that is not true. See, cows have this thing called a "brain". Grapes do not. People have this thing called "self-awareness". Cows do not. I am a little scared if you truly believe that vegans do not eat meat because of your "grape theory".

I'll just assume you were being funny or something.

Re: Lokisdottir post -

My point is that humans are omnivores and not herbivores. The human body is meant to eat meat, not vegetables alone.

Billions of people in hunderds of societies across the world eat very little meat. The human body does not "need" meat: it can live quite well on a balanced diet of plant-based foods and dairy-and if done very carefully, on a diet just of plants.

They just aren't doing anything that really makes the world a better place. They act like big heroes when they free animals from research labs, or when they decline to eat a hamburger. But in the end what have they done? Somebody else eats the hamburger instead and the lab just got set back a few years on their research.

Oh, yah, when better or less painful ways exist to test medications, why use 'em? I mean, really, they are just animals suffering, it's not like they can fight for their rights. And of course, when you decline a hamburger, yes, someone else does eat it-but you haven't, and less demand equals less supply.

Personally, I do not see a problem with eating meat; however, I do see a problem with the current practice of "factory farming" (animal cruelty) It must stop. By supporting the torture of feeling animals, we are simply making ourselves look bad, and detaching ourselves from the pain we cause.

 

[Dracil]

See, cows have this thing called a "brain". Grapes do not. People have this thing called "self-awareness". Cows do not.

And this is my biggest problem with vegetarians and vegans. Hey, let's protect an organism because... oh, they're more like us. Why should brains be the deciding factor over whether something gets eaten or not? Oh, just because they feel pain? Why?

The dirty secret is, because it makes them more like humans. In a way, by saying animals should be protected because they have brains, feel pain, suffer, etc., it is also indirectly making a statement that this is what's important, elevating our own worth as humans.

 

[SallyNow]

And this is my biggest problem with vegetarians and vegans. Hey, let's protect an organism because... oh, they're more like us. Why should brains be the deciding factor over whether something gets eaten or not? Oh, just because they feel pain? Why?

The dirty secret is, because it makes them more like humans. In a way, by saying animals should be protected because they have brains, feel pain, suffer, etc., it is also indirectly making a statement that this is what's important, elevating our own worth as humans.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. That we can put animals through large amounts of pain because we know ourselves in a mirror? That we should treat all animals and humans with respect? That we, as humans who are self-aware, should treat animals who can feel pain better than we are now?

As I said, I am not against meat being eaten. I am against animals being put through horrible pain. It is not a necassary part of raising animals for human consumption. Let's treat animals to lives were pain is not inflected on them; let's give all fellow human beings lives where no pain is inflicted, and let us prevent pain from being inflicted on others.

 

[MidnightBlue]

The dirty secret is, because it makes them more like humans. In a way, by saying animals should be protected because they have brains, feel pain, suffer, etc., it is also indirectly making a statement that this is what's important, elevating our own worth as humans.

Then be consistent. Quit elevating your own worth. Quit acting like your life is more important than anything else. Don't eat plants or animals.

 

[Dracil]

I am not sure what you are trying to say. That we can put animals through large amounts of pain because we know ourselves in a mirror? That we should treat all animals and humans with respect? That we, as humans who are self-aware, should treat animals who can feel pain better than we are now?

As I said, I am not against meat being eaten. I am against animals being put through horrible pain. It is not a necassary part of raising animals for human consumption. Let's treat animals to lives were pain is not inflected on them; let's give all fellow human beings lives where no pain is inflicted, and let us prevent pain from being inflicted on others.

Yes. Their pain is of no consequence to me. Their ability to feel pain garners as much consideration as a plant's ability to generate energy from the sun. The only time their pain is of consideration is if it will cause a disadvantage to me and my species.

Then be consistent. Quit elevating your own worth. Quit acting like your life is more important than anything else. Don't eat plants or animals.

Ah, but I *am* consistent. As a human, the survival of *my species* is the number one priority. All other organisms are treated *equally* as nothing more than a means towards that end.

How about you be consistent and start treating all the non-human organisms the same? Give them all equal rights, or none at all.

The point is, I recognize that I see myself and those of my species as being of more worth than other organisms. Vegans/vegetarians who make the argument that they don't eat animals because of the pain/suffering/cruelty they suffer are in denial of this fact.

 

[The Seeker]

How about you be consistent and start treating all the non-human organisms the same? Give them all equal rights, or none at all.

That's an absurd argument, are you really claiming that there is no moral difference between a dog and a tree?

Before you answer, consider how you would feel about somebody who kicked their dog when they were feeling frustrated compared to somebody who does the same to a tree.

 

[Dracil]

To be blunt, yes. I'm assuming that's his tree as well, and not a random tree. You're being unfair to his tree, and showing your bias towards humans because the tree does not have a nervous system.

To drive home the point that it's not the pain and suffering that's important, if we were somehow able to make it so humans would no longer suffer and feel pain at all, would it be ok to kill and eat humans?

 

[artybloke]

Also, a grape doesn't actually "feel", it doesn't have a brain or the five senses. They aren't a living being; they are a plant!

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Plants may not have brains, but they are alive.