EEEEVIL Vegans.

[The Seeker]

To be blunt, yes. I'm assuming that's his tree as well, and not a random tree. You're being unfair to his tree, and showing your bias towards humans because the tree does not have a nervous system.

Nope, I'm showing bias towards living, sentient creatures capable of feeling pain. Its also known as compassion.

Incidently I seem to remember reading a book once that mentioned compassion a lot, mostly about some beardy, middle-Eastern fella, I recall something about "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" as well. You wouldn't know the title would you?

 

[Dracil]

Nope, I'm showing bias towards living, sentient creatures capable of feeling pain. Its also known as compassion.

Because... oh right, because humans also just happen to be living, sentient creatures capable of feeling pain! Again, this is the bias towards humans I speak of.

Incidently I seem to remember reading a book once that mentioned compassion a lot, mostly about some beardy, middle-Eastern fella, I recall something about "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" as well. You wouldn't know the title would you?

Yes, towards humans. Hmm?

I also seem to recall all the animal sacrifices in the book.

BTW, you don't really want everyone following the golden rule. Unless you like psychopathic sadomasochists doing unto you what they want done unto them.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Because... oh right, because humans also just happen to be living, sentient creatures capable of feeling pain! Again, this is the bias towards humans I speak of.

My question is: so what if they're biased toward humans? You are too, and have clearly said so in that the survival of your species is your number one priority. I really don't see how this argument of yours disparages vegetarians and vegans.

Also, here's something for you to consider: which is more morally reprehensible? Killing a living, sentient person who has a wife and kids, or killing a braindead person who, although he possesses a living body, has no awareness or feelings whatsoever? (I'm not asking for your thoughts on euthanasia, I'm simply asking which action is less moral than the other.) If you can honestly tell me that both are the same, and that you would just as soon kill the former person if it came down to an unavoidable choice, then I'll allow you to look down your nose at the veggies. Otherwise, you're just being hypocritical.

And just to make sure we're on the same page, yes, I eat meat, and yes, I'm pro-animal rights. This is a carnivorous world and death is inevitable, but the least we can do as intelligent beings is to see to it that other beings suffer less in the process.

 

[The Seeker]

Because... oh right, because humans also just happen to be living, sentient creatures capable of feeling pain! Again, this is the bias towards humans I speak of.

Fine, caring about animals is a bias towards humans, the sky is pink and it rains purple fish. Happy?

you don't really want everyone following the golden rule. Unless you like psychopathic sadomasochists doing unto you what they want done unto them.

Staunch Catholic in "Jesus was totally wrong" Shocker

 

[Dracil]

My question is: so what if they're biased toward humans? You are too, and have clearly said so in that the survival of your species is your number one priority. I really don't see how this argument of yours disparages vegetarians and vegans.

The difference is they're in denial of this

Also, here's something for you to consider: which is more morally reprehensible? Killing a living, sentient person who has a wife and kids, or killing a braindead person who, although he possesses a living body, has no awareness or feelings whatsoever? (I'm not asking for your thoughts on euthanasia, I'm simply asking which action is less moral than the other.) If you can honestly tell me that both are the same, and that you would just as soon kill the former person if it came down to an unavoidable choice, then I'll allow you to look down your nose at the veggies. Otherwise, you're just being hypocritical.

The problem is, you're talking about our own species. See the problem? Now if you're talking about a brain dead dog and a dog with pups, they're the same. Although I'd still need a reason to kill them. Randomly killing dogs helps me in what way? Make a relevant analogy next time instead of strawmen.

And just to make sure we're on the same page, yes, I eat meat, and yes, I'm pro-animal rights. This is a carnivorous world and death is inevitable, but the least we can do as intelligent beings is to see to it that other beings suffer less in the process.

Again, I see no reason why they should suffer less.

 

[Dracil]

Fine, caring about animals is a bias towards humans, the sky is pink and it rains purple fish. Happy?

Hey, if you think the sky is pink and rains purple fish, go right ahead!

Staunch Catholic in "Jesus was totally wrong" Shocker

Staunch non-Christian taking the Bible out of context and using silly rhetoric instead of actual arguments. Nothing to see here. Move along now.

 

[Lokisdottir]

The problem is, you're talking about our own species. See the problem? Now if you're talking about a brain dead dog and a dog with pups, they're the same. Although I'd still need a reason to kill them. Randomly killing dogs helps me in what way? Make a relevant analogy next time instead of strawmen.

First of all, do you even know what a strawman is? Explain to me exactly how I put words into your mouth, and then attacked what "you" said. You'll find it hard, because I didn't.

Secondly, my analogy is quite relevant. If some human life is worth more than other human life, then it stands to reason that some non-human life is worth more than other non-human life. Simple as that.

Again, I see no reason why they should suffer less.

I've found, almost without exception, that those who have no compassion for animals have equally little compassion for humans, whether or not they like to admit it. Preventing needless suffering should be an end unto itself, instead of a "Why should I?" If you honestly don't understand that, there's something quite wrong with you, and I think even the most militant of carnivores will agree with me.

 

[Dracil]

First of all, do you even know what a strawman is? Explain to me exactly how I put words into your mouth, and then attacked what "you" said. You'll find it hard, because I didn't.

Simple, see what my argument is about, hint, the worth of humans > other organisms, vs. what you're trying to argue here.

Secondly, my analogy is quite relevant. If some human life is worth more than other human life, then it stands to reason that some animal life is worth more than other animal life. Simple as that.

That's a different argument from ability to feel pain and suffering increases something's worth. Ability to feel pain and suffering does not increase something's worth. Rather, their ability to produce offsprings for their species does.

And you had the audacity to complain that you don't make strawmen.

I've found, almost without exception, that those who have no compassion for animals have equally little compassion for humans, whether or not they like to admit it. Preventing needless suffering should be an end unto itself, instead of a "Why should I?" If you honestly don't understand that, there's something quite wrong with you, and I think even the most militant of carnivores will agree with me.

Really? Guess I'm an exception. BTW, I'm pretty sure I didn't say I don't have compassion for *all* animals. But random animals that I've never met being served to me? I'm supposed to care about it?

Oh, I can make assertions like that too. I've found, almost without exception, that those who have no compassion for autotrophs have equally little compassion for heterotrophs, whether or not they like to admit it.

 

[Lokisdottir]

That's a different argument from ability to feel pain and suffering increases something's worth. Ability to feel pain and suffering does not increase something's worth. Rather, their ability to produce offsprings for their species does.

I never claimed that the ability to feel suffering increases something's worth. But honestly, why try to decrease the suffering of an organism that can't even feel suffering (i.e. a vegetable)?

And you had the audacity to complain that you don't make strawmen.

Yep.

Really? Guess I'm an exception. BTW, I'm pretty sure I didn't say I don't have compassion for *all* animals. But random animals that I've never met being served to me? I'm supposed to care about it?

For crying out loud, I never claimed that you're supposed to shed a tear for every hamburger you bite into. I certainly don't.

Oh, I can make assertions like that too. I've found, almost without exception, that those who have no compassion for autotrophs have equally little compassion for heterotrophs, whether or not they like to admit it.

Hey, I never said I have no compassion. I think it's a damn shame that some things have to die so that other things can go on living. I just accept that that's the way the world works, and go on with my life.

 

[Dracil]

I never claimed that the ability to feel suffering increases something's worth. But honestly, why try to decrease the suffering of an organism that can't even feel suffering (i.e. a vegetable)?

But why decrease the suffering of an organism that *does* feel pain? To make you feel good about yourself? Ok, I suppose that's a valid reason. But ultimately, the root of that feeling is still in selfishness.

For crying out loud, I never claimed that you're supposed to shed a tear for every hamburger you bite into. I certainly don't.

Great!

Hey, I never said I have no compassion. I think it's a damn shame that some things have to die so that other things can go on living. I just accept that that's the way the world works, and go on with my life.

Well... there *is* the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement you could join.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Because I forgot before:

BTW, I'm pretty sure I didn't say I don't have compassion for *all* animals.

You most certainly did.

 

[John812]

I was just thinking about the OP and how vegetarians are killing grapes. Perhaps the future generations will also look down on vegetarians as they eat "Chemical Swirls! - Made from 100% inorganic compounds!". If the world will last long enough, I can see it happening.

For the most part, cows live the good life. Everytime I drive by a farm their resting, lying down on the grass with their cow friends - or munching on some grass - just taking it easy, while us humans have to take care of all their needs, or working the night shift in some hot, dirty factory. True, there are some cows that actually havta do some hard work, but there is a wide variety of living beings that havta do work also. Plus, there are millions of cows that have life because of us humans. There couldnt possibly be as many cows naturally grazing in the wild. Yeah, cows are very pampered all their lives - except in the end when they are killed, yet their death is for an honorable cause. Every earthly creature dies sooner or later. Our bodies, atleast - many peoples Spirits will be with God

Plants are generally the laziest - they dont do anything.


God Bless!

 

[Lokisdottir]

I'm just about done here, because I'm beginning to repeat myself.

But why decrease the suffering of an organism that *does* feel pain? To make you feel good about yourself? Ok, I suppose that's a valid reason. But ultimately, the root of that feeling is still in selfishness.

I'm pretty sure I've covered this already.

Well... there *is* the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement you could join.

Actually, I already consider myself a member. Not because I advocate human extinction (I would, however, like to see the population stabilize, or at least stop skyrocketing), but because I never, ever want to have children.

 

[Dracil]

Because I forgot before:

You most certainly did.

Oh, where?

I'm just about done here, because I'm beginning to repeat myself.

I'm pretty sure I've covered this already.

Not to any degree of satisfaction.

Actually, I already consider myself a member. Not because I advocate human extinction (I would, however, like to see the population stabilize, or at least stop skyrocketing), but because I never, ever want to have children.

Congratulatiosn on your first step in removing yourself from our gene pool!

Don't worry, there's enough of us that there's a great chance that your genes will be covered by several of the offsprings in the next generation.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Oh, where?

You've said, repeatedly, that all animal life is the same to you, and that you do not care if animals suffer.

Not to any degree of satisfaction.

Maybe not to you.

Congratulatiosn on your first step in removing yourself from our gene pool!

That was uncalled for.

Don't worry, there's enough of us that there's a great chance that your genes will be covered by several of the offsprings in the next generation.

I'm not worried about my genes dying out. I have two sisters who have already reproduced.

 

[Dracil]

You've said, repeatedly, that all animal life is the same to you, and that you do not care if animals suffer.

Maybe not to you.

That was uncalled for.

Hmm, ok. You're right, I don't care if animals suffer. However, I do care if those that have a bond to me suffer. Like pets.

I guess there is a little inconsistency I should address here. Yes, pets are animals. But they are also more than just animals. They are a kind of honorary family member. And family members are important.

That was uncalled for.

Ok, I apologize. That wasn't really the way I meant it.

But when I think about it, I do really see people in terms of their gene potential. *shrug*

 

[Lokisdottir]

Hmm, ok. You're right, I don't care if animals suffer. However, I do care if those that have a bond to me suffer. Like pets.

I guess there is a little inconsistency I should address here. Yes, pets are animals. But they are also more than just animals. They are a kind of honorary family member. And family members are important.

Now we're getting somewhere!

 

[The Seeker]

Hey, if you think the sky is pink and rains purple fish, go right ahead!

The point is that you continually insist that being concerned about animals is based upon some kid of rhetorical bias towards human beings. Its an absurd, circular argument, much like saying that believing that the sky is blue betrays a secret belief that it is in fact pink.

Empathy is a part of human emotion, if it applies to non-human animals then it is not necessarily biased towards humans. It would make just as much sense to argue that compassion and altruism towards human beings is down to a bias towards ones self.

Staunch non-Christian taking the Bible out of context and using silly rhetoric instead of actual arguments. Nothing to see here. Move along now.

Did you know that scientist have now found a way of transplanting a sense of humour from one person into another?

 

[Dracil]

The point is that you continually insist that being concerned about animals is based upon some kid of rhetorical bias towards human beings. Its an absurd, circular argument, much like saying that believing that the sky is blue betrays a secret belief that it is in fact pink.

Empathy is a part of human emotion, if it applies to non-human animals then it is not necessarily biased towards humans. It would make just as much sense to argue that compassion and altruism towards human beings is down to a bias towards ones self.

I'll grant you that. It relies on a different set of assumptions about the world than the usual set of assumptions other people make.

And yes, I do actually believe that compassion and altruism towards human beings is essentially a bias towards oneself. Heck, sacrificing yourself isn't bad if it helps the rest of humanity survive (especially those of your offspring), since most of your genes are guaranteed to be passed on. Not all together in one person, but spread out amongst the rest of the population.

But then again, I also feel that to a large extent, consciousness is really nothing more than a rationalization device for the actions made by the unconscious part of your brain.

Did you know that scientist have now found a way of transplanting a sense of humour from one person into another?

Interesting. Did you notice my mirroring your humor?

 

[fanatiquefou]

I was just thinking about the OP and how vegetarians are killing grapes. Perhaps the future generations will also look down on vegetarians as they eat "Chemical Swirls! - Made from 100% inorganic compounds!". If the world will last long enough, I can see it happening.

For the most part, cows live the good life. Everytime I drive by a farm their resting, lying down on the grass with their cow friends - or munching on some grass - just taking it easy, while us humans have to take care of all their needs, or working the night shift in some hot, dirty factory. True, there are some cows that actually havta do some hard work, but there is a wide variety of living beings that havta do work also. Plus, there are millions of cows that have life because of us humans. There couldnt possibly be as many cows naturally grazing in the wild. Yeah, cows are very pampered all their lives - except in the end when they are killed, yet their death is for an honorable cause.

You haven't seen the same cows being raised for food that I have, then. The vast majority of animals raised for food in this country live short, nasty lives, crowded onto huge feedlots with very little room, pumped full of chemicals, then slaughtered. The peaceful cow grazing on a hillside is a lovely scene, but don't assume that it represents the life of all beef or dairy cows in this country. And do you really think being made into a hamburger at McDonalds so someone can get just that much fatter is an honorable cause?

I'm not going to say that meat-eaters are evil and wrong, because I don't believe that. Most of my family and friends are meat-eaters and we still all get along, even if they think I'm weird and I wish they'd consider the effects of their meat-eating lifestyle a little more. All I ask is respect for my choice not to eat meat, which was made for many reasons, including humane treatment of animals, but also including spiritual and health reasons. I don't believe that animals are on an equal level with humans, but I believe that with our greater intelligence comes greater responsibility, and that our very meat-centric culture not only isn't healthy for us, but isn't fulfilling our duty to treat all animals humanely.