Edited: Question on Catholic beliefs

Valetic

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Fair enough; but it says a lot about eating "my flesh" and drinking "my blood" what's that about?

I think it could be what this guy said here...

Jesus' death was a sacrifice, and according to Jewish law, a sacrifice must be eaten. In particular, the Passover lamb had to be slain and eaten. As our Paschal victim, Jesus' offering of His body and blood as something to be consumed doesn't just make sense, it's a divine commandment. As His priests, the apostles were charged with offering this sacrifice perpetually, by uniting His faithful with that one perfect sacrifice on Calvary by taking us to Calvary.

Nobody will ever actually eat His human flesh and drink His human blood, but I feel like when He says that stuff (eating my flesh and drinking my blood) He is saying the same thing He said here...

[32] “In truth I tell you,”replied Jesus, “Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father does give you the true bread from heaven; [33] for the bread that God gives is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”

[34] “Master,” they exclaimed, “give us that bread always!”

[35] “I am the life-giving bread,”Jesus said to them; “whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never thirst again.

I think what Jesus is saying is COME TO ME! DO NOT STUMBLE AND DO NOT BE ASHAMED OR AFRAID!

So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:42-43

But back to the topic, the eating of His flesh and the drinking of His blood could be a more intimate reminder of what He did for me or you, who He is in my life (who He is to ME) and cause me to reflect on where I stand and who I am in Him and how I ought to be.
 
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Tutorman

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You can understand it to be saying that the sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice as on Calvary, only in an unbloody manner. It's "re-presented" to us, veiled by the substances of bread and wine.

That is exactly what my Priest tells us
 
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TuxAme

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You say that Jesus gifted the church with priests. Isn't the gift of priesthood for every christian. The scriptures say that Christians are a "holy priesthood" and "a nation of priests" but, if I have not misunderstood you, you imply that there is a kind of inner priesthood that is commissioned to do what the "holy priesthood" of Christians in general is not commissioned to do. Is that so and if it is what is your reason for saying it and is there any scripture that teaches it?
There's many hints in Scripture- but firstly, I think it's unhelpful to quote the "holy priesthood" and "nation of priests" texts. When Peter speaks of it, he is recalling Exodus 19:6. The surrounding text of this verse says:

On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone forth out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. And when they set out from Reph′idim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Now, you don't believe that God made every Israelite here a priest, do you? Surely not, since we know that only Levites could be priests (and even then, not every Levite). A "royal priesthood", or "kingdom of priests", isn't the same as a "kingdom of sacrificial priests". Rather, every Israelite had the responsibility of ministering to each other in ways that didn't require an ordination. In this text which Peter cites it isn't suggested that every Israelite can offer sacrifice, and Peter's words don't try to suggest otherwise.

Now, as for this "inner priesthood", or the sacrificial priesthood, we see this suggested in many places. One instance which comes to mind is when Jesus is washing the feet of the apostles. This echoes the ordinations of Aaron and his sons, who were washed on the day of their consecration to the priesthood. This is supported by the fact that Jesus says to Peter, "If I do not wash you, you have no part (meros) in me". Consider how the Levites had their portion (meris) in the Lord.

The Last Supper is the most apparent, however. What Jesus does on this night isn't a one-time event; He instructs His apostles to offer this in memory of Him. Offer what? Offer the sacrifice of His body and blood. The same term used here is used in the Greek Old Testament to describe the sacrifices offered by Moses to complete the consecration of Aaron and his sons (see Exodus 29:36-41). Jesus only instructed His apostles, His "inner circle", to "offer this", and the apostles passed this duty on only to their successors, who in turn passed it on.

In my Church, today is the feast of the Transfiguration, so it's especially fitting that I mention this today of all days. Jesus only permitted three of His apostles to come up the mountain with Him and view this event: Peter, James and John. This is a huge event as well, recalling how Moses went up Mount Sinai with three followers of his own. Who were they? Aaron and his sons, who were to become priests.
 
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Afra

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The fact is, though, that a re-sacrifice of Christ was taught by the Roman church for centuries. Only in recent times, and after the idea no longer was convincing to the modern men and women in the pews was it necessary to massage it somewhat.

That's what also happened with Limbo, Purgatory, Remarriage, women servers at Mass, weekly confession, and a number of other teachings that once were very clear-cut and important.
No, this is false.

I do not believe the bread and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Christ ... It has always tasted like bread and grape juice to me! Communion is done to remember (as Jesus said, do this in remembrance if Me). His sacrifice is to be remembered always. It is symbolic.
I would rather people believe in something more difficult than that, but real. That when God forgives us of our sins, that is when we are born again spiritually, we are transported back in time to that time of His death, when our sins were nailed to the cross. So we die and are raised with Him, then are transported back to the future, all in a moment's time.
Well this is interesting. What happens to the sins that you commit after you are born again? Are you transported back in time every time you commit a sin, so that it can be nailed to the cross, and then you are transported back to the future again? Depending on how much a person sins, that could involve quite a bit of time travel.
 
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GingerBeer

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There's many hints in Scripture- but firstly, I think it's unhelpful to quote the "holy priesthood" and "nation of priests" texts. When Peter speaks of it, he is recalling Exodus 19:6. The surrounding text of this verse says:

On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone forth out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. And when they set out from Reph′idim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Now, you don't believe that God made every Israelite here a priest, do you?

I do believe that at first, before the idolatry of the golden calf, that God did intend every Israelite head of household to serve as priest for his house. And after the golden calf idolatry, when the Levites adhered to Moses, God chose the Levites to serve in worship in the tabernacle (and later in the temple) and the house of Aaron to supply the priests for the nation.

Surely not, since we know that only Levites could be priests (and even then, not every Levite). A "royal priesthood", or "kingdom of priests", isn't the same as a "kingdom of sacrificial priests". Rather, every Israelite had the responsibility of ministering to each other in ways that didn't require an ordination. In this text which Peter cites it isn't suggested that every Israelite can offer sacrifice, and Peter's words don't try to suggest otherwise.

Now, as for this "inner priesthood", or the sacrificial priesthood, we see this suggested in many places. One instance which comes to mind is when Jesus is washing the feet of the apostles. This echoes the ordinations of Aaron and his sons, who were washed on the day of their consecration to the priesthood. This is supported by the fact that Jesus says to Peter, "If I do not wash you, you have no part (meros) in me". Consider how the Levites had their portion (meris) in the Lord.

The Last Supper is the most apparent, however. What Jesus does on this night isn't a one-time event; He instructs His apostles to offer this in memory of Him. Offer what? Offer the sacrifice of His body and blood. The same term used here is used in the Greek Old Testament to describe the sacrifices offered by Moses to complete the consecration of Aaron and his sons (see Exodus 29:36-41). Jesus only instructed His apostles, His "inner circle", to "offer this", and the apostles passed this duty on only to their successors, who in turn passed it on.

In my Church, today is the feast of the Transfiguration, so it's especially fitting that I mention this today of all days. Jesus only permitted three of His apostles to come up the mountain with Him and view this event: Peter, James and John. This is a huge event as well, recalling how Moses went up Mount Sinai with three followers of his own. Who were they? Aaron and his sons, who were to become priests.
 
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Albion

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Well this is interesting. What happens to the sins that you commit after you are born again? Are you transported back in time every time you commit a sin, so that it can be nailed to the cross, and then you are transported back to the future again? Depending on how much a person sins, that could involve quite a bit of time travel.
You've obviously misread my post. I was not supporting that theory, but just saying that it was widely believed in Constantine's time...and that is the reason he put his baptism off until near his death.
 
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Afra

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I'm legitimately curious, so hopefully we can all keep a calm demeanor on this.

Given the below scriptures how does the Catholic teaching that Christ is sacrificed over and over again, through the eucharist according to the council of trent, become reconciled with scripture that clearly states Christ's sacrifice was for once and all time, being sufficient just once?

Please use scripture for responses. Thank you!

Hebrews 9:25-26
Hebrews 10:10-14
At first glance those verses do seem to repudiate the Mass. I will grant you that, but I think that if you read through Hebrews carefully and study the OT sacrificial system, you will see that the OT priests would offer multiple sacrifices, time after time, for the same sinful acts that occurred in the past. This was because the blood of animals was insufficient to completely atone for a single sin that was committed in the past. Our Lord's sacrifice on the cross is greater than the OT sacrifices because it is more than sufficient to atone for any particular sin. Once the merits of our Lord's passion are applied to any particular sin, the sin is forgiven. No more sacrifice need be offered for it (putting the issue of purgatory aside for the sake of simplification). I think if you read through Hebrews carefully you will see that this is the main point that the author makes in those verses. But if you just pull them out of context, sure, I can easily see how people would think that they repudiate the Mass.

To consider the Catholic perspective, I think you have to consider the question of "when" the merits of our Lord's passion are applied to any particular sin. Some folks believe that when a person says the Lords prayer in earnest (or some other action manifesting a "saving faith"), the merits of our Lord's passion are instantly applied to all of that person's sins "past, present, and future." But Catholics do not see that in Scripture. For example, in chapter 10 you see the following:

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"​

At least to me, those verses do not make sense if we assume that all sins (past, present and future) are forgiven at the instant one is "saved". Why talk about there being no sacrifice remaining for sins if we go on sinning deliberately, if all of a person's future sins have already been forgiven?

So if you believe, as Catholics do, that not all sins, "past, present, and future" are forgiven in an instant when the person is "born again", the question then becomes, when are the merits of our Lord's passion applied to the sins that he commits after he is born again? The theology here is pretty complicated and I do not fully understand it, to be honest, but generally speaking, this is where the Mass comes in. The Sacrifice of the Mass sacramentally re-presents our Lord's sacrifice on the cross to the Father, as a remembrance of his past suffering. *This is my own speculation* but perhaps it is a bit similar to saying "Father, please remember your son's sacrifice on the cross, and do not seek vengeance for the sins the Afra committed today." This is basically ongoing, because we continue to commit sins daily. To be precise, this is what Trent states:

Forasmuch as, under the former Testament, according to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, there was no perfection, because of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood; there was need, God, the Father of mercies, so ordaining, that another priest should rise, according to the order of Melchisedech, our Lord Jesus Christ, who might consummate, and lead to what is perfect, as many as were to be sanctified. He, therefore, our God and Lord, though He was about to offer Himself once on the altar of the cross unto God the Father, by means of his death, there to operate an eternal redemption; nevertheless, because that His priesthood was not to be extinguished by His death, in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,--declaring Himself constituted a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech, He offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the species of bread and wine; and, under the symbols of those same things, He delivered (His own body and blood) to be received by His apostles, whom He then constituted priests of the New Testament; and by those words, Do this in commemoration of me, He commanded them and their successors in the priesthood, to offer (them); even as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught.
Now, what you want to know is, where do you see all of that in Sacred Scripture? Perhaps other Catholics will disagree with me, but I do not see it explicitly spelled out in Sacred Scripture. I think the full teaching cannot be found outside of Sacred Tradition, but you can certainly find strong allusions to the above in Sacred Scripture.

For example, you see here that our Lord continually intercedes on our behalf, in order to save us:

23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
What intercession is it that our Lord makes for us as a priest, in order to save us?
Here you can see that our Lord continues to offer sacrifice in heaven:

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
What does our Lord offer as a priest? What is his more excellent ministry in heaven?
AND

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
For example, in verse 23 above, why does the author state "sacrifices" (plural) and not "sacrifice" (singular)? What are the better "sacrifices" (plural) that are offered in heaven?

At least to me, all of the above allude to the idea that Jesus continually offers sacrifice on our behalf, to appease the Father for the sins that we continue to commit daily.

Now, as for exactly how what is going on in Heaven relates to the Mass here on Earth, I do not know. Someone with a better grasp on the theology of me will have to explain that. But in general sense I think there is a connection between Mass here on Earth and Jesus's intercession in heaven. Perhaps that is why the Eastern Christians refer to the Mass as the "Divine Liturgy".

The above will not convince you of course, but it should at least give you something to think about.
 
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Afra

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You've obviously misread my post. I was not supporting that theory, but just saying that it was widely believed in Constantine's time...and that is the reason he put his baptism off until near his death.
I thought that somebody else wrote that, but thank you for clarifying.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I'm legitimately curious, so hopefully we can all keep a calm demeanor on this.

Given the below scriptures how does the Catholic teaching that Christ is sacrificed over and over again, through the eucharist according to the council of trent, become reconciled with scripture that clearly states Christ's sacrifice was for once and all time, being sufficient just once?

Please use scripture for responses. Thank you!

Hebrews 9:25-26
Hebrews 10:10-14


What you claim is NOT and never has been the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Firstly, He didn't say "testament", He said covenant. His words recall those of Moses at the base of Mount Sinai, when he sealed the Israelites in the blood of the covenant. When Jesus says these words, He is beginning the New Covenant.

This does not show what you claim it does- you go against the Scriptures and the first Christians in your conclusions.

It means exactly what I showed and it clearly exposes the confusion of centuries.


The word “testament” is the same word used in Matthew, Luke and Hebrews in a Greek it means a disposition, contract, testament, covenant...

The word covenant and testament are applied differently in different context

But the word used in Matthew and Luke and Hebrews is the same usage

This shows clearly that the testament, ) contract, covenant, disposition, ) was not in effect until Jesus died. So when he said this is the new testament (disposition, contract, covenant) in my blood, this was obviously figurative because he hadn't died yet. And Hebrews 9 says the testament ( disposition, contract, covenant,) was not in effect until then

Case closed ( or it should be....but....).
 
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NW82

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I did a web search and "catholicculture.com" gives this definition:
Catholic Dictionary
Term
TRANSUBSTANTIATION

Definition
The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain. While the faith behind the term itself was already believed in apostolic times, the term itself was a later development. With the Eastern Fathers before the sixth century, the favoured expression was meta-ousiosis, "change of being"; the Latin tradition coined the word transubstantiatio, "change of substance," which was incorporated into the creed of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Council of Trent, in defining the "wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the wine into the blood" of Christ, added "which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation" (Denzinger 1652). after transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe they are sustained in existence by divine power. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change + substantia, substance: transubstantio, change of substance.)​
Ok, but if this wasn't doctrine until 1215, what about the 1100 years and change before that?
 
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Landon Caeli

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Ok, but if this wasn't doctrine until 1215, what about the 1100 years and change before that?

Mostly all Catholic doctrine stems from pre-existing beliefs, traditions, etc. They usually tend to make it 'official' only after schisms take root, where people start rejecting or protesting things out of nowhere.

A lot of times, schisms occured community by community. It happened a lot. So there became a need to protect the purity of the faith.

You would be suprised by some of the things people came up with, sometimes even rescripting scriptures where 'doctored-up' bibles were distributed.
 
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NW82

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Mostly all Catholic doctrine stems from pre-existing beliefs, traditions, etc. They usually tend to make it 'official' only after schisms take root, where people start rejecting or protesting things out of nowhere.

A lot of times, schisms occured community by community. It happened a lot. So there became a need to protect the faith.
That doesn't seem logical, sorry.
 
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Landon Caeli

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There was one sect, once, that literally starved themselves, as they thought food was 'worldly' so they rejected eating. Thinking they were bejng pious, they literally starved themselves and many of those around them to death -Which was considered martyrdom to them.

Point being, there has always been all kinds of schisms based on all kinds of things. And councils served to help with that.
 
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Afra

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Ok, but if this wasn't doctrine until 1215, what about the 1100 years and change before that?
It took the Church several hundred years to fully develop the doctrine on the Trinity. Should we not believe it because it was not developed in the first century?
 
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Tutorman

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There was one sect, once, that literally starved themselves, as they thought food was 'worldly' so they rejected eating. Thinking they were bejng pious, they literally starved themselves and those around them.

Point being, there has always been all kinds of schisms based on all kinds of things. And councils served to help with that.

Indeed, it was councils that determined Christian doctrine
 
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ViaCrucis

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Exactly. To me, your words here, show that this is supposed to be an experience of the sacrifice happening again. Am I understanding you correctly?

The key word here is anamnesis. It is the word translated as "remembrance" as when the Lord says "Do this for the remembrance of Me". The concept of anamnesis does not refer merely to some kind of mental recollection, the language is rooted in the Jewish experience of the Passover.

Every Passover when Jews celebrate it at the Seder they read from the Haggadah, which includes the statement "We were slaves in Egypt". The meaning is that every Jew is to understand him or herself as being present in the deliverance from Egypt. It is not simply "Our ancestors were slaves in Egypt" but "We were slaves in Egypt", the individual is drawn through the Passover Seder into the historic reality of God's deliverance of His people from slavery. Every Passover, then, is what we might call an anamnesis of the original Passover. As an anamnesis it brings the past and the present together, and the participants are drawn into the reality of what happened in the past, and the past becomes a present reality which can be lived in and participated in.

It is precisely this concept of anamnesis that is integral to the Eucharist. When we receive the body and blood of Christ in and under the species of bread and wine we are not saying that Christ is crucified over and over again; we are saying what St. Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians chapter 10:

"Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread that we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all share the one bread. Look at the people of Israel. Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?" - 1 Corinthians 10:16-18

When we come to the Lord's Table we are receiving the broken body of Jesus and the shed blood of Jesus, we are partaking and participating in what Christ did once and for all when gave Himself for us on the cross, and that by this Supper we are sharing in that reality. What happened once and for all is ours here and now. That's what it means to "do this for the remembrance" of Christ.

We are not merely having a nice ritual meal with bread and wine that can give us nice thoughts about Jesus, we are participating in Jesus Christ Himself and what He has done for us. It is Christ Himself for us here in and under these species of bread and wine, it is Christ's own once-and-for-all work for us here in and under these species of bread and wine. It is the body and blood of our Lord Jesus, here is Christ our God and Lord Himself, in all that He is. For us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GingerBeer

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Ok, but if this wasn't doctrine until 1215, what about the 1100 years and change before that?
That's a fair question. Maybe "transubstantiation" is not exactly "doctrine"? It would be interesting to check and see what status it has.
 
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Xavier Cane

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I'm legitimately curious, so hopefully we can all keep a calm demeanor on this.

Given the below scriptures how does the Catholic teaching that Christ is sacrificed over and over again, through the eucharist according to the council of trent, become reconciled with scripture that clearly states Christ's sacrifice was for once and all time, being sufficient just once?

Please use scripture for responses. Thank you!

Hebrews 9:25-26
Hebrews 10:10-14

Romans 6:9-10
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Hebrews 10:8 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

There you have it. Who will you trust, the Bible or the institution? Let God be true, and every man a lie.
 
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