Edited: Question on Catholic beliefs

[Athanasias]

The Mass is an entering into the eternal event of the cross.

Amen!

 

[Eloy Craft]

Well said!

Thank you Athanasias. Coming from you it's an honor.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Good question. Well Catholics(and Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Christians) believe this in general because that is how we partake of the new passover lamb in the new covenant.

No, this is not how believers have Christ in them. It is only by grace through faith. When the heart believes unto righteousness, Christ ( the seed, the word) is sown in the heart and life comes. Paul says we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us 2 Cor 4.

Peter says we are born again by the word of God the incorruptible seed.

James says to receive with meekness the engfrafted word which is able to save the soul.

Thy words were found and i did eat.

This eating is spiritual. We eat spiritual meat and spiritual drink

In 1 Cor 10 we read that the common union of all the saints is to eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink". The word "spiritual in Greek is (non carnal, etherreal, divine, supernatural, regenerated, )

Jesus said to those in Laodicea that he wanted to come "INTO" them and "SUP" with them. This inward supper is the eating and drinking. The outward form of bread and the cup is a remeberance not a literal real presence in the bread. The real presence of Jesus is in every believer as scripture clearly shows. And as we abide in Christ and he in us we will continue in Him. This is as we continue in the faith and in His word..

In Jesus through Mary,

It is rather "in the Lord Jesus Christ through faith"

Christ dwell sin our hearts by faith, not by our works. Christ dwell snot in temples made with human hands, such as bread or any other things.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Mass is an entering into the eternal event of the cross.

No, we are crucified with Christ burried with him and risen with him as we come by grace through faith.

We are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. All believers are baptized into one body by one Spirit. This baptism, or immersion into Christ is not into water. This is a deeply spiritual aspect of the faith.

They that are Christ have crucified the flesh.

The believers have put off the old man d and put on the new man. All true believers are born again, from above and are new creations.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink.

 

[Eloy Craft]

No, we are crucified with Christ burried with him and risen with him as we come by grace through faith.

We are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. All believers are baptized into one body by one Spirit. This baptism, or immersion into Christ is not into water. This is a deeply spiritual aspect of the faith.

They that are Christ have crucified the flesh.

The believers have put off the old man d and put on the new man. All true believers are born again, from above and are new creations.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink.

God said it is. Those He invited didn't come. Lotsa mutual excluding going on there.

 

[Philip_B]

To be entirely Anglican:

his was the word that spake it,
and what his word does make it,
that I believe and take it.​

 

[SolomonVII]

Catholicism tends to be very exoteric in its understandings. It is very much WYSIWYG when it comes to sacraments. Baptism is about the water, and holy orders are about laying on of hands, and marriage is about the nitty gritty of making love to your wife and pushing out babies to raise. Communion likewise is about the Body and Blood. It is all out in the open and not too much hidden from the senses.
I think that for many people those kinds of answers are just too simple and too easy. There is nothing challenging to the intellect in this and they are looking for the esoteric hidden meanings, the knowledge that is available to the select few.
But for Catholic teaching and ritual, truth and life are in the doing. What is hidden is Mystery, and even as it is very interesting to meander around the dark and try to discern what is outside of the known, the faith itself is all about the experiencing Christ through the sacraments in our life, sacraments that are as easy to understand as water and oil, and a hand on your shoulder, or a beautiful woman in your arms creating a family together with you.

 

[Eloy Craft]

No, we are crucified with Christ burried with him and risen with him as we come by grace through faith.

We are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands. All believers are baptized into one body by one Spirit. This baptism, or immersion into Christ is not into water. This is a deeply spiritual aspect of the faith.

They that are Christ have crucified the flesh.

The believers have put off the old man d and put on the new man. All true believers are born again, from above and are new creations.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink.

Yes I believe all that but none of it excludes the Real Presence of Christ in the bread. The Kingdom does have a spiritual meat and drink.

John 4
31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, “Rabbi, eat something.”32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.”33 So the disciples said to one another, “Surely no one has brought him something to eat?”

 

[Athanasias]

No, this is not how believers have Christ in them. It is only by grace through faith. When the heart believes unto righteousness, Christ ( the seed, the word) is sown in the heart and life comes. Paul says we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us 2 Cor 4.

Peter says we are born again by the word of God the incorruptible seed.

James says to receive with meekness the engfrafted word which is able to save the soul.

Thy words were found and i did eat.

This eating is spiritual. We eat spiritual meat and spiritual drink

In 1 Cor 10 we read that the common union of all the saints is to eat the same "spiritual meat" and drink the same "spiritual drink". The word "spiritual in Greek is (non carnal, etherreal, divine, supernatural, regenerated, )

Jesus said to those in Laodicea that he wanted to come "INTO" them and "SUP" with them. This inward supper is the eating and drinking. The outward form of bread and the cup is a remeberance not a literal real presence in the bread. The real presence of Jesus is in every believer as scripture clearly shows. And as we abide in Christ and he in us we will continue in Him. This is as we continue in the faith and in His word..



It is rather "in the Lord Jesus Christ through faith"

Christ dwell sin our hearts by faith, not by our works. Christ dwell snot in temples made with human hands, such as bread or any other things.

Well Lets talk about John 6 in context if you think this is just spiritual eating? Why would you think that? And lets talk about Luke 22:19-20 where Jesus tells his apostles to eat his body and drink his blood. Isn't he talking about real eating there? What about St. Paul in 1 cor 10:16-20 is he not saying that eating of the new testament sacrifice is a communion with the actual body and blood of Christ? DOes he not compare it to other sacrificial meals? We should talk about this.

 

[Albion]

Well Lets talk about John 6 in context if you think this is just spiritual eating? Why would you think that? And lets talk about Luke 22:19-20 where Jesus tells his apostles to eat his body and drink his blood. Isn't he talking about real eating there?

If you don't mind my interrupting (since your post is relevant to every Christian who does not believe in Transubstantiation)…

John 6 probably does not refer to the Lords Supper since, if it did, Christ would be insisting that the Jews understand an event that had not happened yet.

And as for Luke, the reason people do not believe it was flesh was because it was bread. That doesn't mean that it could not, spiritually, be bread that had assumed some additional meaning or properties, but it was obviously bread.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you don't mind my interrupting (since your post is relevant to every Christian who does not believe in Transubstantiation)…

John 6 probably does not refer to the Lords Supper since, if it did, Christ would be insisting that the Jews understand an event that had not happened yet.

And as for Luke, the reason people do not believe it was flesh was because it was bread. That doesn't mean that it could not, spiritually, be bread that had assumed some additional meaning or properties, but it was obviously bread.

And being so, in John and Luke and all Scripture,
Jesus and the Apostles and the disciples did not blatantly violate TORAH by thinking it was 'flesh' physically nor blood;
(His disciples who thought it was physical flesh and blood left Jesus before He explained)
Jesus did not try to get them to come back, not even once.

 

[LoveofTruth]

God said it is. Those He invited didn't come. Lotsa mutual excluding going on there.

Jesus said also in the same section "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for you"

"15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, [at the passover as many were doing in the houses all around only he showed the meaning in a spiritual application and for a future reality] and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."(Luke 22:15-20 KJV)

he spoke this before the cross and before the new testament (covenant, contract etc) was in effect, so it must not be in effect when he spoke it, until he actually died and shed his blood, or else the very new testament is confounded and some could say e did not have to go to the cross then if all they had to do was eat bread and drink the cup literally at the supper.

No, in Hebrews we read clearly that the testament is not in affect until the "death of the testator". And without the shedding of blood was no remission.

"15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.19 F... 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."(Hebrews 9:15-16,22-28 KJV)

God said it through the writers and we believe it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"...and drink his blood. Isn't he talking about real eating there?

"
Leviticus 17:10
"And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."

and

Leviticus 17:14
"For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

Acts 15:29
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

So the blood aspect is also a deeply spiritual aspect of our inner eating spiritually and we read similar here and it is again through faith, not literal or works of man.

"14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"(Hebrews 9:14 KJV)

Romans 3:25
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Revelation 1:5
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

 

[Landon Caeli]

If that's what you believe then that's fine. If others believe differently, then they can.

 

[Athanasias]

And being so, in John and Luke and all Scripture,
Jesus and the Apostles and the disciples did not blatantly violate TORAH by thinking it was 'flesh' physically nor blood;
(His disciples who thought it was physical flesh and blood left Jesus before He explained)
Jesus did not try to get them to come back, not even once.

Why was consumption of blood not to be done? It is because the blood contained the life in it (Lev 17:11). This is why Jews did not eat blood of animals because animals are a lower life form and not made in the image and likeness of the Trinity like humans are. The understanding was if you ate the blood of a lower life form you lower yourself. However there is one Persons blood who is it is ok to drink(Jesus) because He is God(the highest person and life itself Jn 14:6). This is why Jesus who is life tells us we must drink his blood to have life in us(Jn 6:53-58). He says "my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.". Then he tell us 4 different times we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life.

Notice when the others left he did not try to say "Hey wait folks I am just speaking symbolically". Rather Jesus let them leave and strengthened his language using the term trogon which means to gnaw with the teeth or masticate(not symbolic language).

Just as one had to make covenant with the Sacrificial passover lamb by eating the flesh of that sacrifice(Ex 12:8) so too must we in the new covenant. But this time Jesus gives us his flesh in a supernatural sacramental real way. This sacrificial meal is a communion with Christ actual body and blood as St. Paul would say(1 Cor 10: 16-20).

 

[LoveofTruth]

If that's what you believe then that's fine. If others believe differently, then they can.

If this is what scripture says, and you have no other argument perhaps you should believe it also.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry, no. Jesus clearly said "My Words ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE" and this is confirmed and in harmony with all Scripture.
Most that differs from this is not only confusing and disorderly, but based on tradition opposed to Scripture and brought in from other sources.

 

[Athanasias]

Sorry, no. Jesus clearly said "My Words ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE" and this is confirmed and in harmony with all Scripture.
Most that differs from this is not only confusing and disorderly, but based on tradition opposed to Scripture and brought in from other sources.

What do you suppose Spirit and life mean? I think (like the entire early Church including the martyrs taught by the apostles) that this meant that he was not speaking of just ripping off his natural flesh(like cannibolism) but rather that he would be giving us his real flesh and blood in the supernatural way that included his soul and divinity his very life by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Landon Caeli]

If this is what scripture says, and you have no other argument perhaps you should believe it also.

Why? Our job as Christians is not to convince other Christians to conform in a single denomination. It's to feed the poor and to treat people respectfully.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Sorry, no. Jesus clearly said "My Words ARE SPIRIT, and they ARE LIFE" and this is confirmed and in harmony with all Scripture.
Most that differs from this is not only confusing and disorderly, but based on tradition opposed to Scripture and brought in from other sources.

If you're an expert interpreter of scripture, then that's just great. But not liking other denominations because they don't see things your way seems counterproductive.