ECT has Committed EVERY Logical Fallacy!

[atpollard]

Eternal also means "of God". Hence "eternal life" but not "eternal torture". But, as I say, it's easy enough to look it up if you're interested in learning what it means. It's a very complex word.

I "looked it up" in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

STRONGS G166:
αἰώνιος, -ον, and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. [see below]; Diodorus 1:1; [cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23)]) -ος, -α, -ον, (αἰών);

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.​

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2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.​

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3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philemon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 [also, dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) 2:11]; similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; [so Mark 16 WH, in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'].​

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Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46; κρίμα, Hebrews 6:2; κρίσις, Mark 3:29 (Rec. [but L T WH Tr text ἁμαρτήματος; in Acta Thom. § 47, p. 227 Tdf., ἔσται σοι τοῦτο εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λύτρον αἰωνίων παραπτωμάτων, it has been plausibly conjectured we should read λύτρον, αἰώνιον (cf. Hebrews 9:12)]); ὄλεθρος [Lachmann text ὀλέθριος], 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (4 Macc. 10:15); πῦρ, Matthew 25:41 (4 Macc. 12:12 αἰωνίῳ πυρὶ κ. βασάνοις, αἳ εἰς ὅλον τὸν αἰῶνα οὐκ ἀνήσουσί σε).​

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[Of the examples of αἰώνιος from Philo (with whom it is less common than ἀΐδιος, which see, of which there are some fifty instances) the following are noteworthy: de mut. nora. § 2; de caritate § 17; κόλασις αἰ. fragment in Mang. 2:667 at the end (Richter 6:229 middle); cf. de praem, et poen. § 12. Other examples are de alleg, leg. iii., § 70; de poster. Caini § 35; quod deus immut. § 30; quis rer. div. her. § 58; de congressu quaer, erud. § 19; de secular sec 38; de somn. ii. § 43; de Josepho § 24; quod omn. prob. book § 4, § 18; de ebrietate § 32; de Abrah. § 10; ζωὴ αἰ.: de secular § 15; Θεός (ὁ) αἰ.: de plantat. § 2, § 18 (twice), § 20 (twice); de mundo § 2. from Josephus: Antiquities 7, 14, 5; 12, 7, 3; 15, 10, 5; b. j. 1, 33, 2; 6, 2, I; κλέος αἰ. Antiquities 4, 6, 5; b. j. 3, 8, 5, μνήμη αἱ.: Antiquities 1, 13, 4; 6, 14, 4; 10, 11, 7; 15, 11, 1; οἶκον μὲν αἰώνιον ἔχεις (of God), Antiquities 8, 4, 2; ἐφυλάχθη ὁ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις, b. j. 6, 9, 4.​

SYNONYMS: ἀΐδιος, αἰώνιος: ἀΐδ. covers the complete philosophic idea — without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end; as respects the past, it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. αἰώνιος (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as συνεχής continuous, unintermitted, διατελής perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like αἰών); αἰώνιος accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things, see the N. T. Cf. Tim. Locr. 96 c. Θεὸν δὲ τὸν μὲν αἰώνιον νόος ὁρῆ μόνος etc.; Plato, Tim. 37 d. (and Stallbaum at the passage); 38 b. c.; legg. x., p. 904 a. ἀνώλεθρον δὲ ὄν γενόμενον, ἀλλ’ οὐκ αἰώνιον. Cf. also Plato's διαιώνιος (Tim. 38 b.; 39 e.). Schmidt, chapter 45.]​

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... and Vine's Expository Dictionary:

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STRONGS G166:​

Eternal:​

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"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom 16:25; 2Ti 1:9; Tts 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.​

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"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2Cr 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Phm 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1Ti 6:16, and of His glory, 1Pe 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hbr 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hbr 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Hbr 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2Pe 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luk 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, Jhn 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' Jhn 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2Cr 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1Cr 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Mat 25:46; Tts 1:2.​

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"Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mar 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hbr 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Mat 18:8; 25:41; Jud 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mar 9:43. "The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2Th 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 232, 233.]​

 

[atpollard]

It depends on which one you ask. No offense to our EO brothers and sisters, but they have rejected the manifold witness of early Christians for the sake of power. They're just another shade of the Church of the Empire thanks to Justinian.

Respectfully, people who have spoken and written Greek continuously for 2000 plus years probably understand the meaning of the original Greek manuscripts. Theology aside, they can be trusted to translate Greek to English more accurately than an English speaker with an agenda.

Here is Matthew 25:46 from the EOB: "These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal actually means "eternal".

 

[public hermit]

Respectfully, people who have spoken and written Greek continuously for 2000 plus years probably understand the meaning of the original Greek manuscripts. Theology aside, they can be trusted to translate Greek to English more accurately than an English speaker with an agenda.

Here is Matthew 25:46 from the EOB: "These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal actually means "eternal".

We clearly disagree and you have no interest in learning more about universal restoration. Thanks for the engagement.

 

[atpollard]

We clearly disagree and you have no interest in learning more about universal restoration. Thanks for the engagement.

Thank you.

Realistically, a topic called "ECT has Committed EVERY Logical Fallacy!" probably had a low probability of attracting people interested "in learning more about universal restoration".

 

[Der Alte]

Lol, when having conversations with ECT people in general, I've noticed that overall a lot of their arguments fall into fallacies. Especially stuff like "Fallacy of Tradition" where they were taught ECT in their church so they think it's true.
Overall, the whole point about fallacies is that we should not discuss things with mere human points, but rather, for every point we make, we must back it up with scripture.
Rev. 15:4 "ALL nations shall come and worship You, for your judgments have been made manifested."

The correct Biblical term is "eternal punishment" and Jesus Himself said it. Matthew 25:46.
People from all nations will come and worship God. But Jesus Himself said that "In that day, i.e. Judgement day, many, not a few will say to Him that they have done many mighty works in His name but He will say to those "many" "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23
And there ain't no nations, kingdoms etc. in the grave or sheol only individual dead bodies.

 

[Der Alte]

Eternal also means "of God". Hence "eternal life" but not "eternal torture". But, as I say, it's easy enough to look it up if you're interested in learning what it means. It's a very complex word.

Pipe dreams! Show us lesser mortals where the Bible shows that "aionios" only means "eternal" when referring to God but means something else when not referring to God? How would former pagan, gentile Christians know this "rule" in the different pagan nations e.g. Egypt, Italy, Greece, Asia [modern day Turkey], Samaria etc. which are addressed in the N.T. when it is not spelled out anywhere in the N.T.
Here are three vss. spoken by Jesus, where Jesus defines/describes "aionios" as meaning eternal/everlasting.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never [εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[font]/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aiona” means “age(s), a finite period,” “age(s) is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
…..In the following verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting” by juxtaposition with other adjective/descriptive phrases.

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Also there is the little problem that "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun.

 

[Der Alte]

We clearly disagree and you have no interest in learning more about universal restoration. Thanks for the engagement.

Actually, it is you who has no interest in learning.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[public hermit]

Thank you.

Realistically, a topic called "ECT has Committed EVERY Logical Fallacy!" probably had a low probability of attracting people interested "in learning more about universal restoration".

Yeah, I have to agree.

 

[HSong]

Would I be gnashing my teeth if I was in a fiery pit?

I think if I were in a fiery pit, my teeth would probably be melting off, so nothing really there to gnash lol

 

[HSong]

Greek speaking Christians understood Greek and that aionios does not mean eternal.

This is true. The Hebrews understood Hebrew and that olam does not eternal.

 

[HSong]

Yeah, I have to agree.

XD What can I say, I like to spread my eggs in more than one basket lol. One thread here that focuses on the pros of Universal Restoration, another thread that focuses on the cons of Eternal Conscious Torment.

Psalm NEB 138:8 The Lord will accomplish His purpose for me. Thy true love, 0 Lord, endures for ever, leave not thy work unfinished.

 

[public hermit]

This is true. The Hebrews understood Hebrew and that olam does not eternal.

"In the New Testament, as in the Old, death, punishment, and fire are described as aionia, pertaining to the world or aion to come, but never as aidia or strictly eternal...it is so important that the Greek Father's almost unanimously followed the biblical usage carefully, and therefore called death, punishment, and fire aionia or "otherworldly," or at most "long-lasting," but never aidia or "everlasting, absolutely eternal." Some Latin theologians who, unlike Ambrose, Caspian, or Eruigena, did not know Greek, such as Augustine, relied on Latin translations of the Bible in which the rigorous differentiation of aionios and aidios of the Greek Scriptures was completely blurred, since both adjectives were generally translated aeternus or sempiternus. Thus, Augustine came to believe that in Scripture death, punishment, and fire in the other world are actually declared to be eternal, and his perspective proved immensely influential in the Latin West." Ilaria Ramelli from A Larger Hope pg. 218-19

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Would I be gnashing my teeth if I was in a fiery pit?

If gnashing your teeth has to do with excruciating pain or fierce anger? (It does.) Yes, I believe that you would.

 

[Hmm]

It does.

Except it doesn't as explained.

 

[atpollard]

This is true. The Hebrews understood Hebrew and that olam does not eternal.

... because Jesus had nothing but praises for the Hebrews and how well they had understood the Law and Prophets.

 

[Der Alte]

This is true. The Hebrews understood Hebrew and that olam does not eternal.

Then please explain to me how the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 1906 Jewish Translation Society [JPS] translated "olam" as "ever lasting" "300+ times? And I have been unable to find any instance where "olam" is translated as "age" or anything else in the JPS.
Link to EOB: Online Bible

 

[Der Alte]

• Where does it say "torment" in scripture?
• The Greek word "aionios" doesn't mean "eternal" if by that you mean "everlasting". That's a mistranslation. Google it if you are interested in what it actually means.
• "Gnashing" means "gnashing" but it refers to the gnashing teeth of the wild dogs when they were consuming the corpses of executed criminals that were thrown on the rubbish top of Gehenna, not the teeth of human beings who are in some sort of literal Dante's hell. Would I be gnashing my teeth if I was in a fiery pit? That would be the last thing on my mind to do.

Right! Up is down. Left is right. Bad is good. Are you familiar with Matthew 7:21-23?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus NEVER said, "All mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven!"
Rather Jesus said, "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven..." Then Jesus will say, "Many" not a few, "will say to me in that day," i.e. Judgement day, "Lord, Lord, have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?" But Jesus will say to those many, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.
FYI Jesus Himself said that "aionios" means eternal.

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In these two vss. Jesus parallels "aionios zoe" with "shall not perish," twice. By definition "aionios" means eternal/everlasting!

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Except it doesn't as explained.

Except it does.

(If something was explained, it wasn't to me—nor was I directed to where it was explained, nor asked to interact with the explanation. All of these facts are the product of an acute failure to argue in good faith.)

 

[Der Alte]

Example: ECTers modify the word “aionios” and “olam” to falsely mean “forever” when it truthfully means “pertaining to an age”

Truthfully? "aionios" is an adjective. "age" is a noun. There is no word for "pertaining" in any verse in which "aionios" occurs. "aionios" is NEVER translated "age" in the NT.
"Olam" is translated "for ever" 300+ times in the 1906 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] and is never translated "age."
Link to JPS: Online Bible

 

[Der Alte]

It depends on which one you ask. No offense to our EO brothers and sisters, but they have rejected the manifold witness of early Christians for the sake of power. They're just another shade of the Church of the Empire thanks to Justinian.

Empty i.e. meaningless accusations!