ECLA LCMS personallity test

[JacksLadder]

I know all about the different uses of the word "yom" in the Hebrew. As I said before, context is king. If we use the hermeneutic of Scripture interprets Scripture, the word "yom" in Genesis 1 can only mean a 24 hour day. There is nothing in Scripture as a whole to suggest otherwise.

Honestly this could go round and round with no conclusion Word Study Yom from Answers in Creation points out many other OT uses of the word Yom in context that mean age.
In my studies I have found it to mean age or something similar.
I know many creationist who accept Old Earth as a valid interpretation. One of them is a Reformed Presbyterian Christian(not that this matters on a Lutheran forum ) who can read biblical Greek and Hebrew. Of course I use scripture/scripture for spiritual truths only.
I view the bible as Gods literal spiritual truths.When it comes to science I use a text book(my bible's periodic tables are a bit lacking LoL)

But this is not what this thread is about. YEC/OEC has its own forum

Apparently unless someone states differently it appears LCMS is a YEC only organization.

 

[RadMan]

It sounds like you would be a frustrated ELCA member. Certainly there are people in the LCMS who believe in evolution or ordaining women (I've known some), but I would say that in general it would be easier to be an ELCA member with some views more conservative than the denom than being an LCMS member with views a bit more liberal than the denom (I've been both).
But one thing to consider is the views of the LCMS will be more lasting and stable, that is, you will know what you disagree with and since they do not revisit or consider as many changes there is not the issue of the synod moving in a direction you further dislike. The ELCA is a constantly fluxing denom moving in a steady liberal direction (at least at the synodical level).
In terms of the scripture interpret scripture, both will claim this, they both will accuse the other of not doing it (or at least not doing it as well).
As to the immigrant thing, people very on this ever debated topic. But I will note that the ELCA being involved in social justice would generally seem to be more apt to speak out for the sake of the immigrant, but I am speaking only in terms of their trends towards social justice. I am unaware of any specific stance or statement on this issue.
The other thing to consider is the parishes near you. I am unsure of your locale so maybe you're in an area filled with both ELCA and LCMS churches, but if you are in an area of only one or two of each it is worth while going to the churches, meeting the people, speaking with the pastors, worshiping. You might find that your local churches might or might not represent their synod within what we might call the stereotypes of the ELCA and LCMS and that could change your persepectives completely.
Hope that helps.
Pax

good,practical post

 

[RadMan]

As you are a 'seeker', it should be expected that you ask questions that do not have pat answers ... or perhaps would even seem to be non-sequiturs. I personally delight in your question and encourage more.

To answer your inquiry, let me start by stating that I am LCMS:

1) The LCMS is opposed to the ordination of women. For myself I am neutral on the topic given the testimony of Judges 4 & 5 which speak of Deborah the Prophetess, who held court under the Palm of Deborah. This speaks of a woman leader of Israel in the time of the Judges who led under her own authority, and the only Judge who was also a prophet. Cross references to Judges 4:4 name four other prophetesses.

You might want to read more on why Deborah was in that position.

 

[RadMan]

Honestly this could go round and round with no conclusion Word Study Yom from Answers in Creation points out many other OT uses of the word Yom in context that mean age.
In my studies I have found it to mean age or something similar.
I know many creationist who accept Old Earth as a valid interpretation. One of them is a Reformed Presbyterian Christian(not that this matters on a Lutheran forum ) who can read biblical Greek and Hebrew. Of course I use scripture/scripture for spiritual truths only.
I view the bible as Gods literal spiritual truths.When it comes to science I use a text book(my bible's periodic tables are a bit lacking LoL)

But this is not what this thread is about. YEC/OEC has its own forum

Apparently unless someone states differently it appears LCMS is a YEC only organization.

I thought you came into our forum to ask us what we Lutherans believe? Not the other way around. There are many people in GT that will argue with you till Jesus comes back.

 

[wildboar]

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

So were the Jews expected to work for six ages and then rest for an entire age? That could wear a lot of people out and leave an entire age without any food.

 

[JacksLadder]

Well I got my answers I will end up getting banned if I keep posting Thanks for the input.

Sound like I could get along really well with LCMS as long as I would not get into endless creation debates.

Sounds like I would end up trying to make the ELCA more moderate.


Either way like a previous poster pointed out. I would get smacked around

 

[Till]

Well I got my answers I will end up getting banned if I keep posting Thanks for the input.

Sound like I could get along really well with LCMS as long as I would not get into endless creation debates.

Sounds like I would end up trying to make the ELCA more moderate.


Either way like a previous poster pointed out. I would get smacked around

JacksLadder, what are you actually looking for? A group of people that most closely mirror your thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices?

 

[JacksLadder]

JacksLadder, what are you actually looking for? A group of people that most closely mirror your thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices?

Well yea......to be honest.

 

[filosofer]

Honestly this could go round and round with no conclusion Word Study Yom from Answers in Creation points out many other OT uses of the word Yom in context that mean age.
In my studies I have found it to mean age or something similar.
I know many creationist who accept Old Earth as a valid interpretation. One of them is a Reformed Presbyterian Christian(not that this matters on a Lutheran forum ) who can read biblical Greek and Hebrew. Of course I use scripture/scripture for spiritual truths only.
I view the bible as Gods literal spiritual truths.When it comes to science I use a text book(my bible's periodic tables are a bit lacking LoL)

While that study in Answers in Genesis is a start, it does not do enough, which often happens with "word studies." And word studies tend to give a false sense of what is happening in the text itself. What that particular study fails to note is that whenever YOM is used with ordinal numbers [not cardinal numbers as presented in AiG, which negates one of AiG primary "arguments of dismissal" concerning Zechariah 14:7-9], the reference is always to a 24 hour period consistently throughout the Old Testament. Now, if that pattern was different in Genesis 1, then there would have to be something in the text to indicate something other than a 24 hour period. There is nothing in the text to do so. I find Answers in Genesis rather dismissive of any who disagree with them, as if those who disagree "really don't know Hebrew." There are many world class Biblical and Hebrew scholars who do not agree with Answer in Genesis and the reasoning presented there.

Note also that there is never a statement in the Bible about how old the earth is. The indications strongly suggest a youth earth, and scientific evidence seems to lean toward a young earth.

Granted, while the Bible is not a science book, it likewise does not err, even in science. The problem is that many want to make the Bible into a science book (Christians who make claims that the Bible does not make), or others want to impose on the Bible scientific categories that do not fit within the Biblical expressions. For instance, assuming that the Biblical word min מין or in the text of Gen. 1: ‏לְמִינֵ֑הוּ , (often translated as "kind") is the same as "species" used in science, which they are not. An excellent book to read is Studies in Creation, by John Klotz (now deceased), which presents scientific problems and issues for those who advocate evolution, old earth, and youth earth solutions. It is written for the serious lay person in mind. BTW, Klotz was the first in the US to have earned doctorates in biology and theology.

So as Lutherans we do not have to fear science, nor we do not have to sacrifice the Bible for science. But we have to be honest with both.

 

[wildboar]

Jack:

I would encourage you to do further study and make sure that you are not just following personal inclinations. Theistic evolution requires a person to believe that the church was wrong in its reading of Genesis for thousands of years until science came along and helped them out.

But on a practical level, I would guess that the individual churches would within each denominational body would vary quite a bit as to which things are emphasized or tolerated. I do know some LCMS folks that believe in theistic evolution.

 

[JacksLadder]

Thanks for the answers and suggestions everyone I will check them out. But I was brought up creationist but after my own research into biology,geology, astronomy etc... and have come to my own conclusions regarding creation so I doubt they will change my mind but will give it a look.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

So were the Jews expected to work for six ages and then rest for an entire age? That could wear a lot of people out and leave an entire age without any food.

Lev 25 calls for Sabbath years and Jubilees.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Jack:

I would encourage you to do further study and make sure that you are not just following personal inclinations. Theistic evolution requires a person to believe that the church was wrong in its reading of Genesis for thousands of years until science came along and helped them out.
quote]

If I could, this was an issue with texts that suggested the earth was flat. We now read those texts completely differently than people did for over a thousand years.
Does this same point apply directly to evolution though is another question. The earth being round is an observable, experiencable thing. Evolution is a constantly changing theory because it is based on interpreting data to speak about something to old for any of us to witness and too drawn out for us to validate with certainty. As a friend of mine once put it, believing in evolution requires some level of faith, because you are trusting in principles and facts that are being applied in a way that cannot be "proven" since no one can live long enough to prove those principles and reality itself is struck with so many variables.
So in short, the world and "science" has at times informed our reading before, but to what extent science on evolution can is a difficult issue, evidenced by how early theories of evolution have changed dramatically when compared with newer theories.
But the other issue at hand is how you allow that to influence you when you base your principle of interpretation on scripture interpreting scripture--at what point can you let outside influences then come in.

 

[wildboar]

The belief that the earth was flat was a minority position in the early church, not the majority position: Creationism and the Early Church - Chapter 7

Lev. 25 calls for sabbath years but they were not years in which nobody worked. The days in Exodus 20 that are to be observed are clearly traced back to the creation days.

 

[wildboar]

I would just like to add that it is and will always be impossible to prove macro-evolution as scientific fact since it is not observable and I don't see why people would be willing to accept the incarnation (which is far more amazing) but not a six day creation. Can't God do what He wants?

 

[JacksLadder]

Well I am not Lutheran so I am checking out of this thread since it is turning into a debate. I think I have all the info I need and will try to look at all sides. Thanks all.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

The belief that the earth was flat was a minority position in the early church, not the majority position: Creationism and the Early Church - Chapter 7

Lev. 25 calls for sabbath years but they were not years in which nobody worked. The days in Exodus 20 that are to be observed are clearly traced back to the creation days.

Lev. 25:3-5 states that you do not do agricultural work of sowing, tilling, etc. In a primarily agricultural world that is a command not to work. My point was primarily also to show that while exodus 20 clearly references creation, the notion of seven and sabbath was never in the OT constrained to days.

But I must apologize in general, I am aiding in this discussion moving away from the point of the thread and for my part in that I am sorry.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The belief that the earth was flat was a minority position in the early church, not the majority position: Creationism and the Early Church - Chapter 7

Lev. 25 calls for sabbath years but they were not years in which nobody worked. The days in Exodus 20 that are to be observed are clearly traced back to the creation days.

While the flat earth thing may not have been held by all, or even most, the idea that the Sun revolved around the earth was!

 

[cassie121]

Well, either way to join the church I would expect you would have to take some type of class. Prior to which you would probably have a discussion with the pastor which would most likely better sort out your questions.

 

[Zoness]

I gotta agree with Jack, thread no longer relevant bye all!