ECLA LCMS personallity test

[DaRev]

For some reason I'm having trouble with my Libronix software and so I'm having trouble looking at the original work, but doesn't Luther have a treatise called On the Adoration of the Sacrament where he sort of encourages adoration but says its optional?

Luther was not infallible.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Luther was not infallible.

Yes, but was Luther's position on the adoration of the Sacrament? I'm super curious as to how he justified it, but then again I thought Eucharistic adoration was proper in and built into the Divine Service via the Agnus Dei. I've got a LOT to learn.

 

[DaRev]

I've got a LOT to learn.

Das ist am meisten sicher wahr.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Luther was not infallible.

wait...he wasn't?

 

[RadMan]

Yes, but was Luther's position on the adoration of the Sacrament? I'm super curious as to how he justified it, but then again I thought Eucharistic adoration was proper in and built into the Divine Service via the Agnus Dei. I've got a LOT to learn.

If you can wade through Luther's Works, which are 55 volumes and chronological, you will see Luthers views change over the years. That's why there is some confusion as to what he advocated. Earlier views would finally evolve into later, more consistent, views .

 

[wildboar]

Luther was not infallible.

Stop saying such gibberish, of course he was. Just kidding. I'm still having trouble with my Libronix system but I look forward to reading his work on it. I understand the problems with parading the consecrated elements about or keeping them in a tabernacle for days and days. But there does seem to be a certain amount of Eucharistic adoration during the service itself. The pastor kneels after consecrating the elements and we bow before the altar and then kneel to receive the body and blood of Christ. I guess I don't understand why we wouldn't adore Christ as He comes to us in with and under the bread and wine. I could see the objections coming from the receptionists but not from historic Lutheran teaching. The consecration shouldn't take place for the purpose of adoration but what is the problem with adoring body and blood of Jesus prior to receiving or while in the process of receiving them?

 

[DaRev]

Stop saying such gibberish, of course he was. Just kidding. I'm still having trouble with my Libronix system but I look forward to reading his work on it. I understand the problems with parading the consecrated elements about or keeping them in a tabernacle for days and days. But there does seem to be a certain amount of Eucharistic adoration during the service itself. The pastor kneels after consecrating the elements

We do?

and we bow before the altar and then kneel to receive the body and blood of Christ. I guess I don't understand why we wouldn't adore Christ as He comes to us in with and under the bread and wine. I could see the objections coming from the receptionists but not from historic Lutheran teaching. The consecration shouldn't take place for the purpose of adoration but what is the problem with adoring body and blood of Jesus prior to receiving or while in the process of receiving them?

We bow before the altar in reverance of the cross and the presence of God in the sanctuary. This is done anytime the altar is approached, not just during the Service of the Sacrament.

The problem with adoring the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament is that He doesn't give us His body and blood in order to worship or adore them. He gives them to us into our mouths to eat and drink for the forgiveness of sins.

Our worship and adoration of Him certainly is not confined to the Eucharist, but should be continuous.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

If you can wade through Luther's Works, which are 55 volumes and chronological, you will see Luthers views change over the years. That's why there is some confusion as to what he advocated. Earlier views would finally evolve into later, more consistent, views .

And to think, those 55 volumes is only the stuff we have translated. The German editions of LW is much more expansive.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Stop saying such gibberish, of course he was. Just kidding. I'm still having trouble with my Libronix system but I look forward to reading his work on it. I understand the problems with parading the consecrated elements about or keeping them in a tabernacle for days and days. But there does seem to be a certain amount of Eucharistic adoration during the service itself. The pastor kneels after consecrating the elements and we bow before the altar and then kneel to receive the body and blood of Christ. I guess I don't understand why we wouldn't adore Christ as He comes to us in with and under the bread and wine. I could see the objections coming from the receptionists but not from historic Lutheran teaching. The consecration shouldn't take place for the purpose of adoration but what is the problem with adoring body and blood of Jesus prior to receiving or while in the process of receiving them?

This is exactly what I think.

 

[wildboar]

We do?

Maybe I misunderstood what was going in. It occurs after the consecration of the wine. I've seen it at my own church and another Lutheran church I was going to. Is the minister kneeling to commune himself perhaps?

We bow before the altar in reverance of the cross and the presence of God in the sanctuary. This is done anytime the altar is approached, not just during the Service of the Sacrament.

The problem with adoring the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament is that He doesn't give us His body and blood in order to worship or adore them. He gives them to us into our mouths to eat and drink for the forgiveness of sins.

So are you making a distinction between adoration and showing reverence? If we are showing reverence to a crucifix or altar which do not have the same promises attached to them as the eucharist, would it be proper to say that we reverence the eucharist?

I've done a few searches on the internet and keep coming back to the same Wikipedia article posted everywhere that says:

Lutheran Eucharistic adoration is almost always limited in duration to the communion service because Lutheran tradition does not include reservation of the Sacrament. However, at this time, in North America, the Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran and some other small Churches in the Lutheran Evangelical Catholic Tradition (High Church Lutheran), do reserve the Sacrament, and strongly encourage Eucharistic adoration without requiring it.
Historically in Lutheranism there have been two parties regarding Eucharistic adoration: Gnesio-Lutherans, who followed Martin Luther's view in favor of adoration and Philippists who followed Philipp Melanchthon's view against it. Although Luther did not approve of the Feast of Corpus Christi [ [The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Christian Cyclopedia Corpus Christi] article in Christian Cyclopedia] , he wrote a treatise "The Adoration of the Sacrament" (Von anbeten des sakraments des heyligen leychnahms Christi, 1523)" where he defended adoration but desired that the issue not be forced. After the death of Martin Luther, further controversies developed including Crypto-Calvinism and the second Sacramentarian controversy, started by Gnesio-Lutheran Joachim Westphal. Philippist understanding of the Real Presence without adoration through time became dominant in Lutheranism, although it is not in accordance with Luther's teaching. German theologian Andreas Musculus can be regarded as one of the warmest defenders of Eucharistic adoration in early Lutheranism [ [Hometown Has Been Shutdown - People Connection Blog: AIM Community Network "The Sacrament of the Altar. A Book on the Lutheran Doctrine of the Lord's Supper" by Tom G A Hardt] ] .

And of course since anyone can post on Wikipedia that makes it infallible.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

And of course since anyone can post on Wikipedia that makes it infallible.

That's where I got it too. I think we should make a new thread about this, more people will join in the discussion and we're really derailing the OP. Wild I'll let you make the new thread...I wouldn't know what to call it, Eucharistic Adoration in the Divine Service, or whatever.

 

[DaRev]

This is exactly what I think.

So are you making a distinction between adoration and showing reverence? If we are showing reverence to a crucifix or altar which do not have the same promises attached to them as the eucharist, would it be proper to say that we reverence the eucharist?

I guess the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the LCMS seminaries have no idea what they are doing. Anyone considering attending either institution to become an ordained pastor, don't waste your time. Just read wikipedia and draw your own conclusions regarding theology in the Lutheran Church. Those collared guys are clueless.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There are some Pastors in LCMS and LCC that do indeed genuflect following the institution of the Host, and again following the institution of the Wine. They also practice Elevation. I personally have no problem with this, or my personal adoration at the time of reception which causes me to long for His body and blood, even though I have done nothing to deserve it.

I do however have a problem with adoring "reserved" elements. Why would anyone want to adore our Lord's body and blood, when they can adore Christ the King in Heaven, and here on earth among us?

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I guess the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the LCMS seminaries have no idea what they are doing. Anyone considering attending either institution to become an ordained pastor, don't waste your time. Just read wikipedia and draw your own conclusions regarding theology in the Lutheran Church. Those collared guys are clueless.

Yes, Christ gave us His Body and Blood to eat and drink, but you are just leaving it off at that, saying that we cannot adore his Body under the elements of bread and wine. If Christ truly is in the bread and wine then when we are worshiping him after the consecration, we are worshiping his physical presence in the sanctuary. Our theology on the Eucharist says nothing about not worshiping his presence in the Eucharist no? Where Christ is present why not worship him. We don't worship the Eucharist after the Divine Service because the Bible is silent on this issue, although I'd like to know Rome's justification for Eucharistic Adoration outside of the mass.

 

[seajoy]

Yes, Christ gave us His Body and Blood to eat and drink, but you are just leaving it off at that, saying that we cannot adore his Body under the elements of bread and wine. If Christ truly is in the bread and wine then when we are worshiping him after the consecration, we are worshiping his physical presence in the sanctuary. Our theology on the Eucharist says nothing about not worshiping his presence in the Eucharist no? Where Christ is present why not worship him. We don't worship the Eucharist after the Divine Service because the Bible is silent on this issue, although I'd like to know Rome's justification for Eucharistic Adoration outside of the mass.

Give us the Scripture verse on adoring the elements.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For the sake of discussion, I'll turn this around.

Since our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist, would it not be wrong... even sinful to adore our Lord everywhere else, but to deny our adoration of Him in the Sacrament.

Is it right to proclaim the real presence, and then refuse to adore it? It is our Lord present among us!

 

[filosofer]

Is it right to proclaim the real presence, and then refuse to adore it? It is our Lord present among us!

Regardless of how the question is asked, it comes back to the fact that Scripture tells us "how to adore" -- by eating and drinking. Anything else is what we as humans devise as "adoring," in effect saying, "Jesus, what you instituted was great, but ya know, it would really be better if you allowed us to determine how to adore you."

hmmm... sounds like a first commandment issue, doesn't it?

 

[LutheranChick]

For the sake of discussion, I'll turn this around.

Since our Lord is truly present in the Eucharist, would it not be wrong... even sinful to adore our Lord everywhere else, but to deny our adoration of Him in the Sacrament.

Is it right to proclaim the real presence, and then refuse to adore it? It is our Lord present among us!

This discussion has gotten my curiosity up. First, may I be as bold as to replace the word 'adore' with 'worship'? Isn't it essentially the same thing? Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm just trying to get down to basics.

Second, if you adore the real presence- just how are you doing that? Are you praying to the elements, or what? I guess my question is what is your actual definition of 'adoration' in this context?

Here is my opinion- just a simple Christian's perspective. (and yes I mean a 'simple Christian') I have no background in theology, nor have I done any studies of Martin Luther's works, nor have I even read the Bible cover to cover (yes, I know, GASP, and yes, I should)- so maybe I'm way off base, but this is how I see it. We worship our Lord Jesus Christ, who is present everywhere. Christ is present in a Christian, obviously- yet we don't 'worship' or 'adore' (in the sense of the Adoration of our Lord, if I understand that correctly) the person.

Again, if I am totally off base, please ignore me.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Regardless of how the question is asked, it comes back to the fact that Scripture tells us "how to adore" -- by eating and drinking. Anything else is what we as humans devise as "adoring," in effect saying, "Jesus, what you instituted was great, but ya know, it would really be better if you allowed us to determine how to adore you."

hmmm... sounds like a first commandment issue, doesn't it?

I think the one problem with this answer is you assume that adoration detracts from eating and drinking, which it seems like no one here is suggesting. Rather they are saying, "yes, eat and drink, receive the Lord and the grace he brings. But can I not in my recognition of his presence before me worship him too?" The question then becomes is adoration/worship of the sacrament adiaphora. You call it a first commandment issue, but I do not see that. Luther tells us to seek the Lord where we know hw is present, so I do not think you can call this idolotry. Certainly not anymore than bowing before the chancel or altar when you approach in reverence to the cross and acknowledgement of the present God(see reverence to that which reverence is due thread).

So one must decide first, is it adiaphora? I do not think anyone here considers it commanded by scripture, but is it forbidden? Then one must ask, in so doing does it distract from the gospel and the purpose of the sacrament? This would I think be the more important question on this topic. Finally then should ask why am I doing it? If we have the freedom to do it, why should we? How do we incorporate this appropriately into our liturgy in a manner that is helpful and not problematic?

Pax

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This discussion has gotten my curiosity up. First, may I be as bold as to replace the word 'adore' with 'worship'? Isn't it essentially the same thing? Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm just trying to get down to basics.

No, if we were to worship His body and blood we would not be worshiping the whole Christ.

Second, if you adore the real presence- just how are you doing that? Are you praying to the elements, or what? I guess my question is what is your actual definition of 'adoration' in this context?

Praying to the elements is wrong, again we would not be praying the the whole Christ. For me, adoration is in the joyful anticipation of recieving the our Lord's body and blood, and the peace, comfort and healing that I receive through the eating and drinking.

Here is my opinion- just a simple Christian's perspective. (and yes I mean a 'simple Christian') I have no background in theology, nor have I done any studies of Martin Luther's works, nor have I even read the Bible cover to cover (yes, I know, GASP, and yes, I should)- so maybe I'm way off base, but this is how I see it. We worship our Lord Jesus Christ, who is present everywhere. Christ is present in a Christian, obviously- yet we don't 'worship' or 'adore' (in the sense of the Adoration of our Lord, if I understand that correctly) the person.

Again, if I am totally off base, please ignore me.

Just as we do not worship the elements, neither do we worship one who is filled with Christ. Again, the joy, peace and comfort and Christian love that we feel when we fellowship with other Christians, or attend service for that matter, is adoration of our Lord, at least in my books.

I think our understanding of true adoration is clouded by our understanding of the Roman Catholic practice.

Now, here is an other question for consideration.

When our Catholic brothers and sisters kneel before a monstrance or tabernacle, and pray or meditate on our Lord, is this a lot different than when I kneel before the Altar in my Church and pray and meditate? ...or any where else for that matter?

Addendum:
While I love my wife, and adore her, my worship is reserved for our Lord only.