Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 and Freemasonry's Master Mason Degree

[Rev Wayne]

I've been thinking about how appropriate this passage, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7, is as a choice for Masonry's Scripture reading for the Master Mason degree:

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The passage exemplifies the very kind of allegorical symbolism needed to help understand Freemasonry.

"The sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened," has reference to the dimming of sight with old age.

"The keepers of the house shall tremble" refers to the arms, and the palsy-like trembling that often comes with age.

"And the grinders cease because they are few" refers to the gradual loss of teeth, and the inability to chew, in an age before dentures became common.

"The strong men shall bow themselves" refers to the legs, and the bowing that comes with advanced age.

"Those that look out of the windows be darkened" is another reference to the dimming of sight.

"And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low" is a reference to the diminishing of hearing.

"He shall rise up at the voice of the bird" refers to the light sleeping that comes when we are older, and the tendency to awaken at the least sound.

"And all the daughters of musick shall be brought low" refers to the vocal cords, and the decreasing ability to sing.

"When they shall be afraid of that which is high" speaks of increasing brittleness of bones, and the accompanying fear of heights.

"And the almond tree shall flourish"--the almond tree blossom is white, and this refers to the graying of hair with age.

"The grasshopper shall be a burden"--decreased strength makes even the weight of a grasshopper seem burdensome.

"and desire shall fail"--could be a reference to decreased sexual desire; or it could be a reference to depression and decreased interest in activities of life in general.

"because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets"--long home is his eternal resting place, and the mourners a reference to wakes, much more commonly held in days gone by.

A more clearly symbolic passage would be hard to come by. Its theme and its poetic imagery make it a strikingly fitting choice for this degree.

Any thoughts?

 

[Skip Sampson]

Any thoughts?

I think it's right on the mark: old men watching and waiting until they either die or disappear due to NPD. Good picture of today's Freemasonry.

BTW: What was there to think about? Descriptions such as you've enclosed have been around for years. You repeat the obvious. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I think it's right on the mark: old men watching and waiting until they either die or disappear due to NPD. Good picture of today's Freemasonry.

"Remember Thy Creator in the days of thy youth?"
"While the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh?"

Where exactly do you invent this stuff from? Seems to me the passage states, remember your Creator now, BEFORE the things described come to pass.

Not only did you read the passage wrong, you also presume too much. In the lodge I attend, we have more younger ones than old. The same holds true among our lodge officers. In fact, our Senior Deacon is not very far past qualifying age, I'm sure.

BTW: What was there to think about? Descriptions such as you've enclosed have been around for years.

Who said anything about having to think about the descriptions? Certainly not me. All I did was point out how fitting the choice was, being almost an allegory itself. Nothing was said about any thoughts on the descriptions themselves.

You seem to be less than attentive in this response. Having a senior moment or something? That's okay, maybe you're just having an "o.f.f." day, heheh.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Seems to me the passage states, remember your Creator now, BEFORE the things described come to pass.

I guess you forgot the symbolism of the MM degree:

If the first degree is intended as a representation of youth, and the second of manhood, the third, or Master Mason, is emblematic of old age, with its trials, its sufferings, and its final termination in death. The time for toiling is now over; the opportunity to learn has passed away; the spiritual temple that we all have been striving to erect in our hearts is now nearly completed, and the wearied workman awaits only the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to call him from the labors of the earth to the eternal refreshments of heaven. (SC GL, Ahiman Rezon, 2010 edition, pg. 141)

Thus, the Bible verses reflect the symbolism of the degree, or, as I noted,

old men watching and waiting until they either die or disappear due to NPD.

You might also ponder the AR quote further. Note that it assumes all Masons go to heaven, an interesting, if not a Christian, point of view. I think it more true that all go to judgment. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I guess you forgot the symbolism of the MM degree:

And I guess you forgot what you were talking about, which was NOT "the symbolism of the MM degree":

I think it's right on the mark: old men watching and waiting until they either die or disappear due to NPD. Good picture of today's Freemasonry.

Sorry, but your comment said these verses were a "good picture of today's Freemasonry." And the reason you did so was, you incorrectly apprehended the verse to be about old age and dying, rather than about being faithful to God in one's youth, before the ravages of old age arrive.

First Jacob's staircase, then rectangular cubes, and now "remembering (their) Creator in the days of (their) youth" is equated with "waiting until they die."

Given the track record, I'm not a bit surprised.

Note that it assumes all Masons go to heaven

Strange, the things you try to force upon practically everything you read.

the wearied workman awaits only the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to call him from the labors of the earth to the eternal refreshments of heaven.

It simply says he awaits the word of the Grand Master of the Universe. Nothing is said about it being automatic. And this is not the only statement you will find anywhere in Freemasonry on the matter, so your isolation of this text, and failure to consider the larger picutre, is hardly supportable either. There are many others that can be mentioned within the same context. For instance:

Its covering is no less than a cloudy canopy or starry decked heaven, where all good Masons hope at last to arrive, by the aid of that theological ladder which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven, the three principal rounds of which are denominatedFaith, Hope, and Charity, and which admonish us to have faith in God, hope of immortality, and charity to all mankind. (AR, 91, 93)

We've done this drill before, remember? "Hope" is not "assumed." And they hope to do this by the aid of the theological ladder that Jacob saw, which we know is Christ (John 1:51). In another place in some versions of the third degree, we are told that going to heaven is "through the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah," who again, we know is Jesus Christ. In some of the earliest materials we find in Masonry, the central figure is Abraham, and the story focused upon is the command from God to Abraham to slay Isaac--a typological reference, of course, to Christ. Later the focus was upon Noah, and the accounts focus on the building of the ark--once again, a typological reference to Christ. Some later versions shifted from that story to the story of the Passover--again, typologically symbolizing Christ. Eventually things shifted until we now have the central focus of the third degree, the culmination of blue lodge, in the building of the temple--again, typologically symbolizing Christ, the one who declared "destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again."

The real mystery is, that so many Christian critics of Masonry simply can't even recognize the symbolism of their own religion, which has been borrowed to portray Christ symbolically within the symbolism of Masonry. Did you never wonder why choose the story of the building of the temple as the setting for an allegory designed "to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul?" The answer is simple: the intent was not to portray simply "resurrection," but to symbolize the resurrection of the One who symbolically spoke of the body as a temple, who declared beforehand His own resurrection, and in whose resurrection alone is the pledge of our own.

Certainly you are blind and cannot see it; certainly there are Masons, yes, even Christian Masons who cannot see it; and yes, there are Masons who go out of their way to make the most abject denials of it. Yet there the symbolism is, for anyone who has eyes, to see, and for anyone who has ears, to hear. Apparently those who deny this, all somehow figure that each of the biblical passages which have taken their turn as the primary focus and the very core of Masonry, just somehow "accidentally happened" to be the chief christological texts of the Christian faith and the most direct typological representations of Jesus Christ, that can be found anywhere in the Old Testament. Fact is, none of it was accidental, and in fact, it actually appears to have taken place as a progression of sorts. The Abraham and Isaac story was okay as far as it went, but being more typologically significant of Christ's Person rather than His work, was not as rich a symbol; the story of Noah was a natural, employing the builder's art on the one hand, and being symbolic of Christ's salvation; the Passover perhaps went a step further, being indicative of the sacrifice that was the key element in atonement; but the temple allegory, immediately bringing to mind the prediction Jesus made concerning His own resurrection, topped them all--the resurrection, as Paul indicates, being the most essential and foundational event of our faith, without which, as Paul further described it, "we are of all men most miserable."

So sure, if you want to force upon the text the idea of going to heaven being assured, be my guest. But that assurance is not given in a vacuum, you have to take the system as it exists as a whole, and not just a snippet quote employed by you in hopes of a snappy comeback. And you have to recognize it for the symbolic system that it truly is.

 

[Skip Sampson]

And I guess you forgot what you were talking about, which was NOT "the symbolism of the MM degree":

And I guess you forgot your own opening comments:

I've been thinking about how appropriate this passage, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7, is as a choice for Masonry's Scripture reading for the Master Mason degree: ... The passage exemplifies the very kind of allegorical symbolism needed to help understand Freemasonry. ... A more clearly symbolic passage would be hard to come by. Its theme and its poetic imagery make it a strikingly fitting choice for this degree.

I agree: it is a striking choice for the MM degree and fits it perfectly: a bunch of old men hoping Freemasonry will save them.

It simply says he awaits the word of the Grand Master of the Universe.

Indeed, he awaits the word of GAOTU to take him to heaven. Kinda like waiting for a bus to take you downtown. I know the bus and I know the destination; it has nothing to do with 'hope' or it would have used that word. It deals with a certainty that the Mason will go to heaven, and no force is needed to see that. Interesting that Masons go to such lengths to force such passages to mean something other than what the actually say.

BTW: I seem to recall that you are a York Rite Mason; are you a Scottish Rite as well? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I agree: it is a striking choice for the MM degree and fits it perfectly:

And once again, I do NOT agree that you find anything in that scriptural passage that compares to what you described--which is pretty much what you claimed with your first response. The only difference now is, that since you got nailed for your misunderstanding of the verse, you simply choose to abandon the comment as originally stated, and ignore the verse entirely.

a bunch of old men hoping Freemasonry will save them.

I've never met even one man yet who believes that Masonry will "save him."

Indeed, he awaits the word of GAOTU to take him to heaven.

Exactly. But that says nothing at all like what you claim, which is, that it is somehow automatic.

Kinda like waiting for a bus to take you downtown.

And as anyone knows, the bus can be missed. Or someone might decide they don't want to go downtown. Or the bus driver may not see them, and thus not stop. Or the bus could break down, and the person give up waiting.

I know the bus and I know the destination

So do I: (a) Jesus Christ; (b) heaven.

It deals with a certainty that the Mason will go to heaven, and no force is needed to see that.

Wrong. I thought you actually read this? You did quote it, after all:

the wearied workman awaits only the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to call him from the labors of the earth to the eternal refreshments of heaven.

God is the "force" that is "needed to see that." He is the force we must reckon with, I'm sorry you don't seem to think God is that important in getting to heaven. Don't know how you reconcile it with the Bible or Christian faith, though.

Interesting that Masons go to such lengths to force such passages to mean something other than what the actually say.

Wrong again. I merely pointed out that MASONRY says differently than what YOU say. All you're doing is playing the isolation game, by which you divorce a selected text, ignore all Masonic comments to the contrary, and enter your make-believe world of accusations.

It's an old parlor trick, and a game anyone can play. For instance, Jesus Christ is our Savior, the one who made the sacrifice to make atonement for our sins, bringing us salvation. But anyone could take isolated texts of Scripture and, in the same farcical manner with which you treat this, pretend that Scripture declares quite a different thing.

For example:

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Timothy 2:14-15)

Wow, imagine that. By YOUR methods, by which we may randomly select and isolate comments rather than take them as a whole and determine what is said from the general flow of the whole--we can "show" that women have a whole different track for salvation than men. All they have to do is have children!

After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. (1 Peter 3:19-21)

Hey, Peter apparently had a different idea than Paul. By following your practice of isolating specific comments and making them stand-alone proclamations of their own, we find Peter "declaring" that baptism saves us!

Do you see by these examples, how futile and foolish a proposition it is, to deal with single statements in stand-alone fashion to the exclusion of all relevant texts elsewhere?

You simply can't isolate the one segment you did, to the exclusion of relevant passages elsewhere that speak of "faith in the merits of the Lion of Judah," or "reliance upon divine Providence," and the many other expressions signifying faith as key.

I think it more true that all go to judgment.

Interesting. But did you know that's not what Jesus says?

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24, NIV)

He elaborates further upon the point:

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. (John 5:28-29)

If "those who have done what is good will rise to live," do not "those who have done what is good" have an expectation that God will "call them from the labors of the earth to the eternal refreshments of heaven?"

I seem to recall that you are a York Rite Mason; are you a Scottish Rite as well?

You seem to have selective recall. I can't believe you would have missed all the times I've pointed out that I am not, and that I have no intentions of entering Scottish Rite at any future point.

 

[st nick]

dfgvsdg

 

[ALX25]

I've been thinking about how appropriate this passage, Ecclesiastes 12:1-7, is as a choice for Masonry's Scripture reading for the Master Mason degree:



The passage exemplifies the very kind of allegorical symbolism needed to help understand Freemasonry.

"The sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened," has reference to the dimming of sight with old age.

"The keepers of the house shall tremble" refers to the arms, and the palsy-like trembling that often comes with age.

"And the grinders cease because they are few" refers to the gradual loss of teeth, and the inability to chew, in an age before dentures became common.

"The strong men shall bow themselves" refers to the legs, and the bowing that comes with advanced age.

"Those that look out of the windows be darkened" is another reference to the dimming of sight.

"And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low" is a reference to the diminishing of hearing.

"He shall rise up at the voice of the bird" refers to the light sleeping that comes when we are older, and the tendency to awaken at the least sound.

"And all the daughters of musick shall be brought low" refers to the vocal cords, and the decreasing ability to sing.

"When they shall be afraid of that which is high" speaks of increasing brittleness of bones, and the accompanying fear of heights.

"And the almond tree shall flourish"--the almond tree blossom is white, and this refers to the graying of hair with age.

"The grasshopper shall be a burden"--decreased strength makes even the weight of a grasshopper seem burdensome.

"and desire shall fail"--could be a reference to decreased sexual desire; or it could be a reference to depression and decreased interest in activities of life in general.

"because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets"--long home is his eternal resting place, and the mourners a reference to wakes, much more commonly held in days gone by.

A more clearly symbolic passage would be hard to come by. Its theme and its poetic imagery make it a strikingly fitting choice for this degree.

Any thoughts?

It's amaziing that you make countless refrences to the Holy Bible and the Divine word of God, yet your masonic organization believes in all religions holding true divine instruction...for example the quran.. to the Body of Christ ..the christian is to have no instruction from false gods and false prohets of allah and mohammed ..yet your beloved craft of masonry allows the quaran to be treated and recognized as a Volume of Sacred Law...How could the masonic lodge be of the God of the Holy Bible when it cleary practices the opposite ??


And by this FACT masonry could only teach the practice of contradiction... and that's the only thing that would help anyone understand masonry... simply that it's the opposite of truth...

 

[Rev Wayne]

It's amaziing that you make countless refrences to the Holy Bible and the Divine word of God, yet your masonic organization believes in all religions holding true divine instruction

"True divine instruction" is where your error occurs here. Masonry makes no determination among them concerning whether they are "true divine" instruction. It does hold that they all contain religious instruction, and leaves other determinations, like those you mentioned, up to the individual.

But if you really wish to find out whether Masonry seems to prefer any of them over the other, you could take notice of the fact that nothing in Masonry is drawn from the Koran, while Masonry's principles are derived from the Bible.

yet your beloved craft of masonry allows the quaran to be treated and recognized as a Volume of Sacred Law

By Muslims, of course. But since they're going to do so regardless, what exactly does that change?

to the Body of Christ ..the christian is to have no instruction from false gods and false prohets of allah and mohammed

They won't get any such thing from Masonry. Masonry cites no "volume of sacred law" other than the Bible within its rituals. Its allegorical teachings are founded on the Bible, and not on any other book.

You make a mountain out of a molehill, anyway, because Freemasonry is actually outlawed in Muslim countries.

How could the masonic lodge be of the God of the Holy Bible when it cleary practices the opposite ??

Where on earth did you get any such idea? Every principle of Masonry is founded on teachings from the Bible. The plumbline of Amos, the instruction to "remember your Creator in the days of your youth" that is from the biblical text that started this thread, the exhortation to unity based upon the 133rd Psalm, the hope of heaven by the aid of the theological ladder with rungs of faith, hope, and love as found in 1 Corinthians 13, the exhortation to build one's personal temple, as per Paul's instructions, along with the modeling of that temple after the Cornerstone, the allegory based upon the building of King Solomon's Temple, having "faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah," and a slew of others, all deriving from the Bible.

And Freemasonry clearly states that Jehovah is God, and that the name is derived from the four-letter "Tetragrammaton" given to Moses:

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this hall to Freemasonry. . . .

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we are first to consecrate in the name of the great Jehovah; which teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, in His fear to enter the door of the Lodge, to put our trust in Him while passing its trials and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, its altar be devoted to His service, and its lofty arch resound with His praise! (Arkansas Monitor, "Dedication of Halls")

The following is sung:
Music Most Excellent Master's Song, or Portuguese Hymn.

All hail to the morning that bids us rejoice, The Temple's completed, exalt high each voice;
The capstone is finished, our labor is o'er, The sound of the gavel shall hail us no more, Almighty Jehovah, descend now and fill This lodge with Thy glory, Our hearts with good will; Preside at Our meetings, assist us to find True pleasure in teaching good will to mankind.

Thy wisdom inspired the great Institution, Thy Strength shall support it till Nature expires;
And when the creation shall fall into ruin Its beauty shall rise through the midst of the fires. (Maine Blue Book, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

Grand Master
In the name of the Great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate
this Hall to Freemasonry. (Maine Blue Book, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

O Thou Great and Eternal Lord God, source of light and love, the Supreme Grand Master and Mighty Architect of the wonders of creation, who from thy throne in the highest heaven in mercy lookest down upon all the dwellers of earth, incline Thine ear to the prayers and petitions of Thy children now assembled in Thy presence to teach the mysteries of that sublime edidfice which is erected and dedicated to Thy most holy and glorious name. Pour upon us and all the members of the mystic craft throughout the world the reich blessings of Thy Providence. Give us strength to ovbercome temptation, to subdue our passions, and to practice vitrue. Fill our hearts with confidence without presumption, with piety without illusion, and with tender affection for Thy divine goodness, and love for our neighbors. Make us faithful to our friends and charitable to our enemies. Dispose our hears to receive the helpful impressions of religion and humanity, and direct our footsteps in the bright paths of virtue. Let all our actions prove to mankind that our lives are sincerely decdicated to Thee, our God, and to the relief of our fellow creatures. And, finally, when our spirits return unto Thee, the source of life, may we, bearing the rich harvest of worthy deeds, be admitted into that sublime and eternal lodge, where happiness reigns without alloy, and around the throne of the Great Jehovah sing hallelujahs to His name. Now to the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible--the only wise God, be the kingdom, power and glory, forever. Amen. (Prayer, "Dedication of Masonic Halls," Illinois Book of Ceremonials)

The Grand Master then calls up the brethren by striking the Symbol of the Lodge thrice with his gavel, and pours the corn upon the emblem, saying:

In the name of the Great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this temple to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Nebraska book of ceremonies)

God of our fathers, hear
And to our cry be near,
Jehovah, God!
The heavens eternal bow;
Forgive in mercy now;
Thy suppliants hear, O Thou,
Jehovah, God! (Georgia Manual, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

G.M.--In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. (Georgia Manual, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

As through the universe
All Nature's works diverse,
Thy praise accord;
Let faith upon us shine,
And Charity combine,
With hope to make us Thine,
Jehovah, Lord!
(Georgia Manual, "Lodge Hymns")

Where once of old, in Israel,
Our early Brethren wrought with toil,
Jehovah's blessings on them fell,
In showers of Corn, and Wine and Oil.
(Georgia Manual, "Lodge Hymns")

While we adore Jehovah's name,
Pour on our hearts the melting flame,
And mould our souls to love.
(Georgia Manual, "Lodge Hymns")

As through the universe
All Nature's works diverse,
Thy praise accord;
Let faith upon us shine,
And Charity combine,
With hope to make us Thine,
Jehovah, Lord!
(Idaho Manual, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

O Lord God! Source of light and love! Supreme Grand Master of and Great Architect of the universe, who from Thy throne in the highest heaven, in mercy lookest down upon all the dwellers of earth, lend, we beseech Thee, Thine ears to the prayers and petitions of Thy children now assembled in Thy presence. Pour upon us and all the members of our mystic craft whithersoever dispersed throughout the world, the rich blessings of Thy Providence. Give us strength to overcome temptations, to subdue our passions, and to practice virtue. Fill our hearts with reverence for Thy great and holy name; with piety toward Thee; and with love for our fellow man. Make us faithful to our friends and charitable to our enemies. Dispose our hearts, O Thou Great Jehovah, to receive light and truth from the great source of light, that our steps may be directed in the paths of virtue. And whilst we dedicate this temple to Thee, enable us to prove to mankind by our actions that our lives are sincerely decdicated to our God, and to the relief and well being of our fellow creatures. And, finally, when our pilgrimage in life is ended, may we be admitted into that sublime and eternal Lodge where Thou dost forever preside. Amen. (Prayer, "Dedication of Masonic Halls," Idaho Monitor)

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Idaho Monitor)

(Continued Next Post)

 

[Rev Wayne]

(CONTINUED--Masonry declaring the God of the Bible)

It has been supposed that Solomon, in erecting these Pillars, had reference to the Pillar of Cloud and the Pillar of Fire which went before the Israelites in the wilderness, and that the right hand, or south pillar, represented the pillar of Cloud, and the left hand, or north pillar, represented that of Fire. Solomon did not erect them simply as ornaments to the Temple, but as memorials of God's repeated promises of support to his people of Israel. For the Pillar "Kachin," derived from the Hebrew words "Jah," meaning "Jehovah," and "achin," "to establish," signifies that "God will establish his house in Israel"; while the Pillar "Boaz," compounded of "b," meaning "in," and "oaz," "strength," signifies that "in strength shall it be established." And thus were the Jews, in passing through the porch of the Temple, daily reminded of the promises of God, and inspired with confidence in his protection and gratitude for his many acts of kindness to his chosen people. (Kentucky Monitor, Second Section, Fellow Craft degree)

(Junior Grand Warden) As all our ceremonies are intended to promote a reverence for him, and to impresss upon the novitiate the duties owing by man to him, and are begun, conducted, and ended to the glory of his great name, this temple must be, in accordance with immemorial custom, dedicated in the name of the Great Jehovah.
Freemasonry summarizes within itself all those good purposes to which this building is now to be devoted. Embracing within its tenets virtue, charity, relief, brotherly love and affection and above all, constant reverent service to the Supreme Architect of the Universe, the institution of Freemasonry is itself the compendium of all the purposes to which this temple should be dedicated. Therefore, not only will ancient craft usage be followed, but the utmost propriety be observed when we shall dedicate this temple to Fremasonry in the name of the Great Jehovah. (Kentucky Monitor, "Dedication of Halls")

Senior Grand Warden--Most Worshipful Grand Master, from the very earliest days it has been the custom to dedicate Masonic temples and Masonic halls in the name of the Great Jehovah. (Kentucky Monitor, "Dedication of halls")

Grand Master--In the name of the Great Jehovah, the Great Architect of the Universes, to whom be all honor, and glory and praise, I, ........................, Grand Master of Masons in the State of Kentucky, do solemnly dedicate this Temple [or Hall] to Freemasonry. (Kentucky Monitor, "Dedication of Halls")

It has been supposed that Solomon, in erecting these Pillars, had reference to the Pillar of Cloud and the Pillar of Fire which went before the Israelites in the wilderness, and that the right hand, or south pillar, represented the pillar of Cloud, and the left hand, or north pillar, represented that of Fire. Solomon did not erect them simply as ornaments to the Temple, but as memorials of God's repeated promises of support to his people of Israel. For the Pillar "Kachin," derived from the Hebrew words "Jah," meaning "Jehovah," and "achin," "to establish," signifies that "God will establish his house in Israel"; while the Pillar "Boaz," compounded of "b," meaning "in," and "oaz," "strength," signifies that "in strength shall it be established." And thus were the Jews, in passing through the porch of the Temple, daily reminded of the promises of God, and inspired with confidence in his protection and gratitude for his many acts of kindness to his chosen people. (Louisiana Monitor, "The Pillars of the Porch," Fellow Craft degree)

The following song may be sung:

Air, "Old Hundred"

When once of old, in Israel,
Our early brethren wrought with toil,
Jehovah's blessing on them fell,
In showers of CORN and WINE and OIL.
(Louisiana Monitor, "Constituting a New Lodge")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Louisiana Monitor)

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we are first to consecrate in the name of the great Jehovah; which teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, in His fear to enter the door of the Lodge, to put our trust in Him while passing its trials and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, its altar be devoted to His service, and its lofty arch resound with His praise! (Louisiana Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

Almighty Jehovah, descend now and fill
This lodge with Thy glory, our heats with good will;
Preside at our meetings, assist us to find
True pleasure in teaching good will to mankind.
(Maryland Manual, "Dedication of Halls")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Minnesota Monitor)

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we are first to consecrate in the name of the great Jehovah; which teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, in His fear to enter the door of the Lodge, to put our trust in Him while passing its trials and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, its altar be devoted to His service, and its lofty arch resound with His praise! (Minnesota Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

God of our fathers, hear
And to our cry be near,
Jehovah, God!
The heavens eternal bow;
Forgive in mercy now;
Thy suppliants hear, O Thou,
Jehovah, God! (Michigan Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls & Temples")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Temple, with all its apartements and appointments, its various halls and corridors, its furniture and apppurtenances, to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls & Temples," Michigan Monitor)

Grand Master:--Brethren, these ceremonies are not without a proper significance. They are not simply to pass away an idle hour; their purpose is to impart a solemn and instructive lesson. --This hall (Temple) nos dedicated to Masonic uses conveys the idea of wisdom, strength, and beauty; it is consecrated in the name of the Great Jehovah, teaching us again that in all our work, begun and finished, we should acknowledge and magnify His Holy Name. (Michigan Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls & Temples")

The letter G, wherever spoken of in Masonry as a symbol, is merely a modern substitute for the Heberew letter Yod, which was the initial of Jehovah, the Tetragrammaton, and therefore constantly used as a symbol of Deity. (Second Section, Fellow Craft degree, Nebraska Monitor)

Seraph ('ser.af) - One of an order of celestial beings, a purifying minister of Jehovah. . .

Tetragrammaton ('te-tre-'gram-e-'tan) - A Hebrew word representing the "ineffable name" of God--Jehovah. (Glossary, Michigan Monitor)

God of our fathers, hear
And to our cry be near,
Jehovah, God!
The heavens eternal bow;
Forgive in mercy now;
Thy suppliants hear, O Thou,
Jehovah, God! (North Dakota Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," North Dakota Monitor)

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we are first to consecrate in the name of the great Jehovah; which teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, in His fear to enter the door of the Lodge, to put our trust in Him while passing its trials and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, its altar be devoted to His service, and its lofty arch resound with His praise! (North Dakota Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

Almighty Jehovah, descend now and fill
This lodge with Thy glory, our heats with good will;
Preside at our meetings, assist us to find
True pleasure in teaching good will to mankind.
(New Hampshire Manual, "The Dedication of a Masonic Hall")

When once of old, in Israel,
Our early brethren wrought with toil,
Jehovah's blessing on them fell,
In showers of CORN and WINE and OIL.
(New Hampshire Manual, "The Constitution of a New Lodge")

As through the universe
All Nature's works diverse,
Thy praise accord;
Let faith upon us shine,
And Charity combine,
With hope to make us Thine,
Jehovah, Lord!
(New Hampshire Manual, "The Dedication of a Masonic Hall")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I scatter this corn. ("Dedication of a Public Building," Oregon Manual)

Answer me truly as in the presence of the All-seeing Jehovah, who knoweth the secrets of all hearts. (Tennessee Craftsman, Second Section, Master Mason degree)

You have desecrated this Temple, erected for the indwelling of God, with -- of your own benefactor, whose pure and blameless - was devoted to the service of Jehovah. (Tennessee Craftsman, Second Section, Master Mason degree)

He devised many geometrical problems and theorems, among the most celebrated of which was this, which, in the joy of his heart, he called Eureka, signifying, I have found it, and upon the discovery of which he is said to have sacrificed to Jehovah. (Tennessee Craftsman, "Forty-Seventh Problem of Euclid," Master Mason degree)

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Tennessee Craftsman)

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Consecration of a Subordinate Lodge," Texas Monitor)

Here we are taught to worship and adore the Supreme Jehovah, and to supplicate his protection and assistance in aol our well-meant endeavors. (Virginia Manual, "Opening and Closing Lodges")

When once of old, in Israel,
Our early brethren wrought with toil,
Jehovah's blessing on them fell,
In showers of CORN and WINE and OIL.
(Virginia Manual, "Ceremony for Laying Corner-Stones")

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this house to Freemasonry. (Virginia Manual, "Dedication of Masonic Halls and Lodge Rooms")

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we first consecrated in the name of the great Jehovah. This teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, to enter the door of the Lodge in His fear, to put our trust in Him while passing through its trials, and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, the altar at the center of this Lodge be devoted to His service, and the lofty arch of its ceilingresound with His praise! (Virginia Manual, "Dedication of Masonic Halls and Lodge Rooms")

In the sublime degree, the Lodge becomes a representation of the Sanctum Sanctorum or Holy of Holies of Solomon's great Temple of Jerusalem. This magnificent structure was a symbol of Heaven to the Hebrew people, for Solomon built it as the dwelling place of Jehovah that He might be in the midst of His people Israel. (Virginia Manual, Foreword, Master Mason degree)

The Pot of Incense.--This emblem has a further explanation than that which is offered in our ritual. It was used in the Holy of Holies of the Temple to produce a sweet savor in the actual presence of Jehovah. In the plan of the great Temple the altar of sacrifices whereon were offered the bullocks, lambs and other animals, as well as the peace and sin offerings, was situated in a less sacred place; and these may have been used to impress the people with the necessity for being generous and dedicating their earthly possessions to God. The pure, immaterial offering of a sweet incense, however, was to remind them that the only sacrifice worthy of the Deity himself was the spiritual and immaterial offering of a pure heart. ("The Pot of Incense," Virginia Manual)

References to this particular symbol may be found in the Old Testament, where in Psalm 34 these words are to be found, The eyes of Jehovah are upon the righteous, or in Psalm 121, He that keepeth Israel shall neither sleep nor slumber. Thus the idea that Jehovah watched over man was symbolized by the All-Seeing Eye as a manifestation of His omnipresence and omniscience. (Virginia Manual, "The All-Seeing eye")

When once of old, in Israel,
Our early brethren wrought with toil,
Jehovah's blessing on them fell,
In showers of CORN and WINE and OIL.
(Washington Monitor, "Ceremony for Constituting a Lodge")

Then sound the Great Jehovah's praise,
To Him the glorious structure raise.
(Ode from "Laying Cornerstones," Washington Monitor)

In the name of the great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry. ("Dedication of Masonic Halls," Washington Monitor)

This Hall, designed and built by Wisdom, supported by Strength, and adorned in Beauty, we are first to consecrate in the name of the great Jehovah; which teaches us, in all our works, begun and finished, to acknowledge, adore, and magnify Him. It reminds us, also, in His fear to enter the door of the Lodge, to put our trust in Him while passing its trials and to hope in Him for the reward of its labors.
Let, then, its altar be devoted to His service, and its lofty arch resound with His praise! (Washington Monitor, "Dedication of Masonic Halls")

The Lord of Hosts is with us. Trust therefore in the Lord for with Jehovah there is mercy and with Him is plenteous redemption. ("Funeral Service," Washington Monitor)

 

[ALX25]

Originally Posted by Rev Wayne May 4th ,2011 Dangers of Freemasonry

Of course not. The Gospel has been entrusted to the church, that's their job, not the lodge's--or didn't you know that?



Dear me, why on earth would I do that? If I plan to lead a man to Jesus and present the Gospel to him, I'll invite him to church. And if he comes, I'll invite him to the altar. That's what the church is for, and is its stated purpose (at least it is in my denomination, I'm beginning to wonder about yours), to make disciples of Jesus Christ. The lodge is a place that promotes friendship--often among people who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance.



The fact remains, though, that all "volumes of sacred law" contain SOME divine instruction. This has been shown on this forum before, by showing that a teaching Jesus defined as CENTRAL in Christian faith and practice--doing unto others as you would have them do unto you--is found in every religion you can name. Not only that, in some of them, it PREDATES the teaching as found in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, (1) we cannot claim any exclusivity for it; (2) we cannot claim any originality for it; and (3) we cannot claim, at least not in any blanket manner, that sacred books of other religions contain no divine truth.

But none of that changes the fact that Masonry's principles are founded upon only ONE book, and that book is the Holy Bible.


Which is exactly what I do. You should come hear me preach before passing judgment. Do so, and you will not hear one word from the pulpit about the lodge. To suggest any differently is completely ludicrous.


I've already submitted my beliefs for examination. I fully affirm the statements found in the Nicene Creed. You're familiar with it, I suppose? Which of the doctrines found there do you have a problem with? By all means, let's talk about that.



The only clear and present danger I see here is, you might have an embolism or something, with the level of venting we typically see from you.
​

Again Wayne you either forgot your argument you made concerning this issue or your explanations have brought you confussion..

All to easy Wayne... Contradiction proven by your own words... and your Masonic taught ERROR proven once again


Quote by Wayne:

"True divine instruction" is where your error occurs here. Masonry makes no determination among them concerning whether they are "true divine" instruction. It does hold that they all contain religious instruction, and leaves other determinations, like those you mentioned, up to the individual.
End Quote.


CASE and Point.....

 

[Rev Wayne]

All air and no substance as usual. I guess you just let your eyes dance right by the key points that show your error on this one:

"True divine instruction" is where your error occurs here. Masonry makes no determination among them concerning whether they are "true divine" instruction. It does hold that they all contain religious instruction, and leaves other determinations, like those you mentioned, up to the individual.

This was a statement about MASONRY. You have tried to make your unfounded claims by comparing it to THIS:

The fact remains, though, that all "volumes of sacred law" contain SOME divine instruction. This has been shown on this forum before, by showing that a teaching Jesus defined as CENTRAL in Christian faith and practice--doing unto others as you would have them do unto you--is found in every religion you can name. Not only that, in some of them, it PREDATES the teaching as found in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, (1) we cannot claim any exclusivity for it; (2) we cannot claim any originality for it; and (3) we cannot claim, at least not in any blanket manner, that sacred books of other religions contain no divine truth.

This was NOT a statement about Masonry. I did not PRESENT it as a Masonic statement, NOR did I make any claim about it being Masonic. It was simple fact about the texts considered sacred by the world's most prominent religions, and one which was thoroughly illustrated point-by-point by showing it from the relevant texts, in a thread on this very forum, some years ago.

Really, anybody ought to be able to see the holes in your claim on this one. If you can't tell the difference between one's personal opinion, and a cited statement from Masonry, you probably shouldn't be making presumptuous pronouncements about anything. In so doing, all you do in the end is further reduce your credibility--not that your arguments ever really had any in the first place.

 

[Skip Sampson]

(Masonry declaring the God of the Bible)

Good collection of quotes to prove your point. Now, consider this quote from the Michigan GL website:

The person who wants to join Freemasonry must be a man (it's a fraternity), sound in body and mind, who believes in God, is at least the minimum age required by Masonry in his state, and has a good reputation.

Is it your position that whenever the Michigan GL refers to "God," it is in fact referring to Jehovah, God of the Bible? And would that be also true in the other jurisdictions you quoted? Cordially, Skip.

 

[ALX25]

All air and no substance as usual. I guess you just let your eyes dance right by the key points that show your error on this one:




This was a statement about MASONRY. You have tried to make your unfounded claims by comparing it to THIS:


This was NOT a statement about Masonry. I did not PRESENT it as a Masonic statement, NOR did I make any claim about it being Masonic. It was simple fact about the texts considered sacred by the world's most prominent religions, and one which was thoroughly illustrated point-by-point by showing it from the relevant texts, in a thread on this very forum, some years ago.

Really, anybody ought to be able to see the holes in your claim on this one. If you can't tell the difference between one's personal opinion, and a cited statement from Masonry, you probably shouldn't be making presumptuous pronouncements about anything. In so doing, all you do in the end is further reduce your credibility--not that your arguments ever really had any in the first place.

I'll make my point in three ways sir:

One- Your a mason

Two- Your masonic view of "all religions having some divine truth" is only taught and found in Masonry in a Masonic Lodge


Three- Only the MASONIC CRAFT allows "Volumes of Sacred law" such as the Quran and the Holy Bible to be placed on a alter in the center of a Masonic lodge to be viewed and recognized equally as both divine instruction...

This is your organization Wayne not mine...

Your Masonic practice and thoughts are not of the Body of Christ JESUS.

And To address the issue of your opinion as "a Rev."..... Name one Pastor or Rev. other than yourself that preaches to the body of christ from the quran and the bible ??

It's simple wayne Church = Divine instuction from the God of the Holy Bible
Vs.

Masonic Lodge = Instruction from multiple false gods

And for the record your opinion is that all religeons hold some divine truth....

And for the record your opinion that all religions hold some divine truth is not accepted in a Christian Church...

The church that God the Father -God the Son and God the Holy Spirit established stands for DIVINE INSTRUCTION for man the only true and living God...


And to conclude : With your explained opinion of all religions holding divine instuctions , as proclaimed Rev. and a mason

Where do you stand??

 

[Rev Wayne]

I'll make my point in three ways sir:

Try three hundred, and you will still not "make" your point, because your point is not a point at all, it's an opinion, and a false one.

Name one Pastor or Rev. other than yourself that preaches to the body of christ from the quran and the bible ??

I can't help you with the answer to that one, since not only do I not know such a person, I don't do what you just claimed.

Masonic Lodge = Instruction from multiple false gods

That, quite simply, is a lie. Whether it's one of your own invention, or whether you are merely repeating a lie you heard elsewhere, it's still a lie.

To try to prove what you claim, go ahead: cite ONE passage from anywhere in Masonic ritual that you find a tenet from some other religion being set forth as "instruction." To put it mildly, you just can't do it.

"all religions having some divine truth" is only taught and found in Masonry in a Masonic Lodge

Wrong. And I did not get it from Masonry either. It's found in many other places, and in Christian understanding--for those who do not choose to put blinders on and pretend otherwise. Not all Christians have your all-or-nothing mentality concerning truth, and can recognize it when they see it, whatever the source. All truth is God's truth, and where He chooses for it to be disseminated among the peoples of the world, is up to Him, not you. Your problem is, and other antimasons on this forum seem to share the error, that you take the idea of the Bible as the "Word of God" to mean that it contains God's truth to the exclusion of all other sources. That's an absurd proposition, but nonetheless seems to be a primary presupposition held among antimasons.

But I doubt you'll listen to me, maybe you'll take it from a well-respected Christian commentator, Adam Clarke. Here is his take on Romans chapter two, one of the scriptural passages that speak of God's dealings with those outside the Christian faith:

Verse 12. For as many as have sinned without law, viz. the Gentiles, who shall be found to have transgressed against the mere light of nature, or rather, that true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world, John 1:9, shall not come under the same rule with those, the Jews, who have in addition to this enjoyed an extraordinary revelation; but they shall be dealt with according to the inferior dispensation, under which they lived: while those, the Jews, who have sinned against the law-the positive Divine revelation granted to them, shall be judged by that law, and punished proportionably to the abuse of such an extraordinary advantage.
Verse 13. For not the hearers of the law, follow, because one people are favoured with a Divine revelation, that therefore they shall be saved; while the others who have not had that revelation, shall finally perish: this is not God's procedure; where he has given a law-a Divine revelation, he requires obedience to that law; and only those who have been doers of that law-who have lived according to the light and privileges granted in that revelation, shall be justified-shall be finally acknowledged to be such as are fit for the kingdom of God.
Verse 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, Nor does it follow that the Gentiles who have not had a Divine revelation, shall either perish, because they had it not; or their unrighteous conduct pass unpunished, because not having this revelation might be considered as an excuse for their sins.

Do by nature the things contained in the law


Do, without this Divine revelation, through that light which God imparts to every man, the things contained in the law-act according to justice, mercy, temperance and truth, the practice of which the revealed law so powerfully enjoins; these are a law unto themselves-they are not accountable to any other law, and are not to be judged by any dispensation different from that under which they live.

"Do, without this Divine revelation, through that light which God imparts to every man, the things contained in the law." Obviously there are those of other religions who will do the things which God requires, whether they have the same divine revelation we do or not, who will be judged according to their own system.

Your Masonic practice and thoughts are not of the Body of Christ JESUS.

Quite the contrary: as a Christian Mason, "MY" Masonic practice and thoughts are ALL linked to the body of Christ, since Christ is the only foundation of my worship and practice, and since my appropriation of Masonic truths is subordinated to my Christian faith, and not the other way around.

And for the record your opinion that all religions hold some divine truth is not accepted in a Christian Church

"For the record," you'd better re-check yer facts, that's just not true. For instance, from Christian-faith.com, the website of a member of the Assemblies of God in Australia:

All forms of Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Animism and other non-christian religions - while perhaps containing some elements of truth here and there, are basically the product of evil spirits and the fallen minds of men.

That is significant, that even though the writer views them as "the product of evil spirits and the fallen minds of men," he can still acknowledge that other religions "contain elements of truth." Which is all I've been saying all along.

Not everyone takes the approach of the hyper-literalists and hyper-funadamentalists, who mostly approach any other group with the attitude, "You're not like us, so off to hell with you."

Where do you stand?

On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand--salvifically speaking, of course. But that in no way precludes the fact that other faiths CAN contain divine truths whose application does not pertain to matters of salvation. Therein lies your error, in assuming that every statement I make to that effect must by necessity have soteriological implications.

And I've provided one example, in Adam Clarke, of someone who believes that those of other religions can find salvation through following them, provided they "do by nature the things required of the law" of divine revelation.

 

[ALX25]

Try three hundred, and you will still not "make" your point, because your point is not a point at all, it's an opinion, and a false one.

The point that you contradicted yourself is not an opinion it's FACT

I can't help you with the answer to that one, since not only do I not know such a person, I don't do what you just claimed.

You can't help yourself to an answer let alone some one else

That, quite simply, is a lie. Whether it's one of your own invention, or whether you are merely repeating a lie you heard elsewhere, it's still a lie.

The only lies I found were in the masonic meetings...

To try to prove what you claim, go ahead: cite ONE passage from anywhere in Masonic ritual that you find a tenet from some other religion being set forth as "instruction." To put it mildly, you just can't do it.

Let me make it easier for you (at best your a master mason) the whole infra-structure of Masonry is based on moral instruction...Lol... those mulitple volumes of Sacred Laws (that include any false god like allah) that you feel hold some divine truth are used and excepted in masonry to instruct the men of masonry...


Case and point Rev. your masonic taught brother CEMAB4Y 32nd degree mason aka Charles.... remember him buddy... explained that JESUS was not God and that JESUS and muhamed were both prophets of Allah..

That's the masonic teachings of confussion...which is COMPLETELY not of christ...



Wrong. And I did not get it from Masonry either. It's found in many other places, and in Christian understanding--for those who do not choose to put blinders on and pretend otherwise. Not all Christians have your all-or-nothing mentality concerning truth, and can recognize it when they see it, whatever the source. All truth is God's truth, and where He chooses for it to be disseminated among the peoples of the world, is up to Him, not you. Your problem is, and other antimasons on this forum seem to share the error, that you take the idea of the Bible as the "Word of God" to mean that it contains God's truth to the exclusion of all other sources. That's an absurd proposition, but nonetheless seems to be a primary presupposition held among antimasons.

Show me in the Holy Bible where JESUS teaches all religions hold divine truth .....

But I doubt you'll listen to me, maybe you'll take it from a well-respected Christian commentator, Adam Clarke. Here is his take on Romans chapter two, one of the scriptural passages that speak of God's dealings with those outside the Christian faith:



"Do, without this Divine revelation, through that light which God imparts to every man, the things contained in the law." Obviously there are those of other religions who will do the things which God requires, whether they have the same divine revelation we do or not, who will be judged according to their own system.

And thats your explanation for justifying Masonry's secret teachings of " all are one" and the many false gods that are housed under the umbrella of G.A.O.T.U

Quite the contrary: as a Christian Mason, "MY" Masonic practice and thoughts are ALL linked to the body of Christ, since Christ is the only foundation of my worship and practice, and since my appropriation of Masonic truths is subordinated to my Christian faith, and not the other way around.

How could your masonic practice and thoughts be linked to the Body of Christ ,when your masonic envolvment in the organization of masonry stems from a muti-god all religions hold divine truth taught fraternity.

Your arguments and position here makes no sense....


"For the record," you'd better re-check yer facts, that's just not true. For instance, from Christian-faith.com, the website of a member of the Assemblies of God in Australia:


That is significant, that even though the writer views them as "the product of evil spirits and the fallen minds of men," he can still acknowledge that other religions "contain elements of truth." Which is all I've been saying all along.

Not everyone takes the approach of the hyper-literalists and hyper-funadamentalists, who mostly approach any other group with the attitude, "You're not like us, so off to hell with you."



On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand--salvifically speaking, of course. But that in no way precludes the fact that other faiths CAN contain divine truths whose application does not pertain to matters of salvation. Therein lies your error, in assuming that every statement I make to that effect must by necessity have soteriological implications.

This is your error Wayne... you belive masonry is of God the God of the Holy Bible...

You don't understand that if masonry was of God - God the Father , God the Son , and God the Holy Spirit ....masonry would teach that the only Divine instruction for man comes from the one and true living God...

Instead masonry teaches all religions hold divine truth, and masonry go's even further to recognize other false god writtings as a "Volume of Sacred Law"..... and then it go's even further to recognize the false gods writting as equal to the Holy Bible...and thats why you can find the quran and the Bible on the same alter in a masonic lodge...

Is that practice in the masonic lodge "of God" ...and is that practice found or taught by JESUS to be held in the Christian Church???


Some one's argument fell apart and it sure ain't mines...


Best Regards,

AlX25

 

[eachallberg]

Ecclesiastes is full of error.
How ironic.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Ecclesiastes is full of error.
How ironic.

That's a pretty unfair assessment of the passage cited in the OP. I hardly think you would include that passage as being in "error." Otherwise, in your opinion, we should NOT "remember our Creator in the days of our youth?"

That's beyond ironic, that's unimaginable.

Nor would I agree that it's "full of error." Scripture does not teach error. Ecclesiastes may be difficult to understand, but if one accepts the fact that much of Ecclesiastes is carrying on an ongoing internal dialogue by one man examining several general opinions, rather than trying to take everything it says as some kind of dogmatic assertion, it becomes a lot clearer. (Most people, too, do not properly understand the word that typically gets translated as "vanity.")

 

[O.F.F.]

The fact remains, though, that all "volumes of sacred law" contain SOME divine instruction. This has been shown on this forum before, by showing that a teaching Jesus defined as CENTRAL in Christian faith and practice--doing unto others as you would have them do unto you--is found in every religion you can name. Not only that, in some of them, it PREDATES the teaching as found in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, (1) we cannot claim any exclusivity for it; (2) we cannot claim any originality for it; and (3) we cannot claim, at least not in any blanket manner, that sacred books of other religions contain no divine truth.

To claim that "sacred books of other religions contain divine truth" implies that sacred books of other religions are divinely inspired, just like the Holy Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth! And for the claim to come from one who is supposed to be a Christian pastor is appalling.

All truth is God's truth, and where He chooses for it to be disseminated among the peoples of the world, is up to Him, not you. Your problem is, and other...s on this forum seem to share the error, that you take the idea of the Bible as the "Word of God" to mean that it contains God's truth to the exclusion of all other sources.

We ought to expect that a seminary-trained pastor should know that NO other religious book in the world was inspired by God. There might be some coincidental similarities between the "Golden Rule" as stated in the Bible and what appears to be similar statements in books of other religions, but that does NOT make these similar statements all divinely inspired; which is precisely what "divine truth" is. Again, there is NO specific revelation or divine instruction, from God outside the Holy Bible; and to suggest or imply that there is, is pure heresy.

Obviously there are those of other religions who will do the things which God requires, whether they have the same divine revelation we do or not, who will be judged according to their own system.

Sorry, but you got it wrong. Divine revelation comes in two forms; General Revelation and Specific (Special) Revelation. General Revelation is found through (1) nature, (2) in our experience and in our conscience, and (3) in human history. What you quoted from Adam Clarke speaks to General Revelation, NOT Specific Revelation, which is what you wrongly attribute. What you claim is contained in the sacred books of other religions, speaks to Specific (Special) Revelation. However, it is a doctrinal FALLACY to believe that any source outside of the Holy Bible is God-inspired, Special Revelation!

That is significant, that even though the writer views them as "the product of evil spirits and the fallen minds of men," he can still acknowledge that other religions "contain elements of truth." Which is all I've been saying all along.

No you didn't; you said "all volumes of sacred law contain SOME divine instruction," NOT "contain elements of truth." Divine instruction is God-inspired, Specific Revelation, and NO OTHER Volume of Sacred Law other than the Holy Bible contains Special Revelation!

Really, any born-again Christian ought to be able to see the holes in your claim. If you can't tell the difference between what constitutes divine truth, and what happen to be doctrines of demons, you probably ought to resign from Christian ministry; and not make presumptuous pronouncements about anything. In so doing, all you do in the end is further reduce your credibility—not that your arguments ever really had any in the first place.

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. — 1 Timothy 4:1