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Eating Pork

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Crankitup

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in the New Testament Jesus tells Peter don't call anything I make unclean, thus getting rid of OT dietary law ...

Firstly, the passage in Acts chapter 10 doesn't specifically mention pork.

Secondly when God said not to call anything that he has cleansed 'common', he was speaking of the Gentiles. Peter's dream was a metaphor. God was showing him the gospel was also for the Gentiles.

Having said all that I'm not advocating a ban on eating pork for Christians, it's just that that passage is so often used wrongly to teach something it was never meant to.
 
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stone

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You are correct, all one has to do is continue to read the next few verses and Peter says himself what the vision means, and that is what he says, that it's meant to show that gentiles are not to be considered unclean any longer. That is what is written.

Wow! This is an old thread. 2007-

It was the Jerusalem Counsil in Acts that made it clear that gentiles only have to refrain from meats strangled and from consumeing blood. It is not a sin to consume unclean foods. However, i do no eat unclean foods, ya'll wanna know why? :p
 
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Crankitup

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You are correct, all one has to do is continue to read the next few verses and Peter says himself what the vision means, and that is what he says, that it's meant to show that gentiles are not to be considered unclean any longer. That is what is written.

Thanks. :)

Wow! This is an old thread. 2007-

Old thread yes. Sorry. I came across it whilst looking for threads on the subject after seeing Nigella Lawson on TV tonight cooking a pork dish despite the fact she's Jewish. Thought it better to resurrect an old thread where some points have already been covered, than start a completely new one.

It was the Jerusalem Counsil in Acts that made it clear that gentiles only have to refrain from meats strangled and from consuming blood. It is not a sin to consume unclean foods.

Agreed.

However, i do no eat unclean foods, ya'll wanna know why? :p

I think I can guess. It's an unhealthy meat? Pigs (like shrimps and crabs) are scavengers? Something along those lines? I rarely eat it too because I really don't like the taste. If it's served to me at someone's house I won't refuse it because that would dishonour the host, but I don't buy it myself.
 
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stone

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There is a lot more to OT dietary law than just not eating pork and shellfish.


There is a lot more to OT dietary law than just not eating pork and shellfish.

I've studied what is written and that is what i do not eat. I've studied what is kosher and that is what i've found to be what is rejected by Jesus in many of his teachings as well as what Paul taught on the subject.

The word kosher implies far more laws than what is written in the Torah. Kosher is a word invented by the Rabbi's and it is what describes how they are taught to eat. It does imply far more than what is written. They teach for example, because of the commandment, that you should not boil a kid in its mothers milk, they interpret it to mean that dairy and meat must not be consumed at the same time. (personally i've found something from the ancient egyptians that involves boiling goats and milk, but i can't make out much of it, because i have to go on word translations from hierglyphics.) They also teach that soups with meats can not be eaten in the same dishes that are used for things like eating a bowl of cereal. Jews must have seperate sets of dishes. This is where i have seen that the traditions of men have made the Commandments of God unable to be kept. That is a charge Jesus gave to the phariesee's over and over again.
 
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colleen

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Obviously.

Were you directing your post to any person or comment in particular?

I was directing it to the OP. It would be better to confront the false argument that many non-Christians make about homosexuality and the other OT laws than to do a tiny part of OT dietary law. The next thing they will be giving him a hard time about how his clothes are made (since there are laws about this as well).

But, if he did wish to follow OT dietary law he has a lot more to do than just worry about shellfish and pork.
 
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colleen

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I've studied what is written and that is what i do not eat. I've studied what is kosher and that is what i've found to be what is rejected by Jesus in many of his teachings as well as what Paul taught on the subject.

The word kosher implies far more laws than what is written in the Torah. Kosher is a word invented by the Rabbi's and it is what describes how they are taught to eat. It implies far more than what is written. They teach for example, because of the commandment, that you should not boil a kid in its mothers milk, they interpret it to mean that dairy and meat must not be consumed at the same time. (personally i've found something from the ancient egyptians that involves boiling goats and milk, but i can't make out much of it, because i have to go on word translations from hierglyphics.) They also teach that soups with meats can not be eaten in the same dishes that are used for things like eating a bowl of cereal. Jews must have sepetate sets of dishes. This is where i have seen that the traditions of men have made the Commandments of God unable to be kept. That is a charge Jesus gave to the phariesee's over and over again.

Stone, I would tread very lightly here. It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church that Jesus forbid us to eat pork and shellfish. It's fine if you want to do it as a personal devotion, but I wouldn't claim to know more than the Church does on the manners.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Acts 10:9-16 - About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. 13Then he heard a voice saying, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 14But Peter said, ‘By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean.’ 15The voice said to him again, a second time, ‘What God has made clean, you must not call profane.’ 16This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven.

I don't eat pork, seafood, or shellfish either, because I do not like it.
 
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stone

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Acts 10:9-16 - About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. 13Then he heard a voice saying, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 14But Peter said, ‘By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean.’ 15The voice said to him again, a second time, ‘What God has made clean, you must not call profane.’ 16This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven.

I don't eat pork, seafood, or shellfish either, because I do not like it.

Here is the rest of it, and i'll highlight peter's own explanation of the vision in red:

16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. 17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there.
19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 "But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself." 21 Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?" 22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." 23 So he invited them in and gave them lodging. And on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." 27 As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 "That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me." 30 Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he said, `Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 `Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.' 33 "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."


***

Without an understanding of the Torah and a history of Judaism, there are many teachings in the bible that will not be understood.
 
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stone

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this i believe is the Jerusalem counsil regarding gentiles:

Acts 15:6-21 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." 12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 `AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
 
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stone

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Stone, I would tread very lightly here. It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church that Jesus forbid us to eat pork and shellfish. It's fine if you want to do it as a personal devotion, but I wouldn't claim to know more than the Church does on the manners.


Believe me, i do tread lightly. I am very well aware of what all churches teach on this, as well as most religions.

Colleen,

I did not state any place, at anytime, and i never have here or at any place, state that Jesus forbade the eating of pork. Perhaps you are reading what you think, into what i have written? Also, Never have i said or claim to know more than what the church teaches.

You say to me to tread lightly, i say to you, to read carefully what i say and don't read into what i say, because you will not know and will not understand what i say, if you read words into what i have wrote.
 
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Crankitup

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this i believe is the Jerusalem counsil regarding gentiles:

Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 `AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."


Correct. Also it was in James' judgment that that should be their response to what was happening . Not a direct command he'd received from God. A very valid judgment it would seem nonetheless.
 
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stone

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Correct. Also it was in James' judgment that that should be their response to what was happening . Not a direct command he'd received from God.


I believe that he would not have said it, if it did not come from the Holy Spirit. There is a pattern throughout the scriptures, that when it comes to what they teach to others, that in the others books from the other apostles, they often mention something like, "The holy spirit has shown me", or "the holy spirit has spoken to me"; i've seen that every teaching that comes from the apostles is from the Holy Spirit, so although it's not mentioned every single time they give a teaching, it's mentioned enough at other teachings to be able to see the pattern. That is that, the teachings come from the Holy Spirit.
 
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Crankitup

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I believe that he would not have said it, if it did not come from the Holy Spirit. There is a pattern throughout the scriptures, that when it comes to what they teach to others, that in the others books from the other apostles, they often mention something like, "The holy spirit has shown me", or "the holy spirit has spoken to me"; i've seen that every teaching that comes from the apostles is from the Holy Spirit, so although it's not mentioned every single time they give a teaching, it's mentioned enough at other teachings to be able to see the pattern. That is that, the teachings come from the Holy Spirit.

Actually I believe differently. I Corinthians 7 is a good example where Paul in the same chapter states that a command he is giving the married is from the Lord and a verse or two later says that what follows is his own advice, not the Lord's.

I Cor 7:10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 1314 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Whenever an apostle says that they are speaking from their own judgment we should believe them. If James had been speaking something that the Holy Spirit had said to him directly, it would be wrong for him to attribute that wisdom to his own judgment rather than that of the Holy Spirit.

That's not to say James hadn't received wisdom from God to make wise judgments.
 
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colleen

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I've studied what is kosher and that is what i've found to be what is rejected by Jesus in many of his teachings as well as what Paul taught on the subject.

I didn't infer that you said Jesus forbid pork and shellfish. You said it right here.
 
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stone

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Good post, you made me think. lol



Actually I believe differently. I Corinthians 7 is a good example where Paul in the same chapter states that a command he is giving the married is from the Lord and a verse or two later says that what follows is his own advice, not the Lord's.

I Cor 7:10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 1314 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Whenever an apostle says that they are speaking from their own judgment we should believe them. If James had been speaking something that the Holy Spirit had said to him directly, it would be wrong for him to attribute that wisdom to his own judgment rather than that of the Holy Spirit.


That's a good point, but it looks to me like the issue is of marriage with unbelievers and the burden that it would be. What Paul teaches in his own words is only a further teaching from what came from Jesus when he says that a man and a woman should not divorce at all period. As far as the teachings of a clean man making clean a woman, the children and so forth and so on, i think comes from the pharisees and i recall that there may be some kind of teaching that is similar in the Torah, but i kinda dought it? Maybe the Talmud? Not really sure about where that comes from.
 
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stone

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I didn't infer that you said Jesus forbid pork and shellfish. You said it right here.


I've found what is kosher,

that's the 1st part

and that is what i've found to be rejected by Jesus

You only misunderstand, i didn't say what you think i said. In the context of what i posted i mention kosher and put in context as a teaching of the pharisee's, when i say he rejected what is kosher, what i am saying is that he rejected what was taught by the pharisees and saducees. It's the word kosher that implies far more than what is written in the scriptures that are to be kept as the dietary laws.

You know, even if you misunderstood what i wrote, it still reads to be comprehended that what is kosher was rejected by Jesus, which is what i typed out.... ???



I don't get what gives lately? Everytime i say something, people hear something completely different. It's very frustrating sometimes to try and talk to people. It's easier to just throw up my hands and leave them with their own imagination.
 
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Crankitup

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That's a good point, but it looks to me like the issue is of marriage with unbelievers and the burden that it would be. What Paul teaches in his own words is only a further teaching from what came from Jesus when he says that a man and a woman should not divorce at all period. As far as the teachings of a clean man making clean a woman, the children and so forth and so on, i think comes from the pharisees and i recall that there may be some kind of teaching that is similar in the Torah, but i kinda dought it? Maybe the Talmud? Not really sure about where that comes from.


Good point about him repeating what Jesus had already said at Mt 19:9, although strictly speaking Jesus put it in terms of a warning that if a man divorces his wife for any reason other than unfaithfulness, and remarries he commits adultery. Here in verse 10, Paul is giving a command he'd received from the Lord for the wife not to leave her husband.

Verse 10 and 11 are to the married in general and the preceding verses 8 & 9 had been to the unmarried and widows. Verses 12-14 are to a subset of the married - married believers where their spouse is an unbeliever. And now we're very far away from the OP topic. :)
 
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colleen

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Well, you wrote it in response to my first comment about pork and shellfish. Plus, since you were talking about what Jesus didn't mean by kosher you are implying that he did intend for the laws about pork and shellfish to stick.

I'm getting out of this discussion, and I'm sorry if you are feeling attacked. But, I thought it was important that other Catholics don't get the impression that the church teaches that Jesus forbids the eating of pork and shellfish.
 
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